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Phryxis wrote:[
Also, if you're dropping FDs on something, you're pretty much going to kill it. If it's a Land Raider, hey, I'll trade a 180 point Falcon for a Land Raider, right?

Adding the 96 point fire dragon squad that will almost certainly die makes it not a great trade.

Falcons are fine, wave serpents are spammed to hell because they are cheap extremely effective fast transports, the problem with them is that they are like more expensive chimeras, BL wavserpents are good, but in no way fill a full antitank role. Not to mention, having the same armor as a dread, even smaller arms like autocannons and such are more easily used to kill them, yet canceling the melta die thats gained from half range. They are great tanks, but cant fill the same shoes as falcons.

Falcons on the other hand fill more of a mix firebase role, while still having the ability to transport making them scoring. Sticking one of them at a home objective, with a dirt cheap troop inside, in cover, with holofields, is one nasty thing to kill. Plus, having a very unique weapon, the pulse laser, combine with a brightlance is 2 S8 AP2 shots at 48 inches, 3 S8 AP2 shots at 36 making it an extreme tank killer. Alternatively, give it a missle launcher, or shuriken cannon, turn the TL catapults to a cannon and you have a fairly effficient troop killer.

Its not a terrible tank, its actually possibly the most flexible, but it makes for an interesting situation. My friend uses them to great effect, planting them at home making outflanking extremely dangerous, while holding an objective, and he sticks a gaurdian unit in it or right outside of it with either that brightlance, or shuriken cannon, or eldar missle launcher, just increasing that firebase.

Imagine, a falcon with pulse and missle launcher, gaurdian unit with missle launcher, falcon has a shuriken cannon... thats a pretty nasty thing to run into.

Phryxis wrote:

Penetrating hits still kill falcons dead. Even with holofields.

I'm not sure what that means... By my math it's 25% chance to kill a Falcon on a Pen.

Not really it depends what's shooting it. Any unit with meltas will easily penetrate the falcons armour and the odds are now 0.4r or 4/9 that it will kill and immobilised is death for any elder vehicle.

SM melta at half range 4/6 27.68/32 (rough value) 4/9 = 0.25 Immobilised or worse (average about 4 shots to kill)
IG melta at half range 3/6 27.68/32 (rough value) 4/9 = 0.2 Immobilised or worse (average about 5 shots to kill)

And that's why they don't work they cost too much and die too easily. Prism can be hidden away and screened against enemy's that might DS. Serpents can ignore the extra d6 and also knock the strength of other weapons down to 8.

hell if you really need that tank 100% dead the odds are 0.25

SM melta at half range 4/6 27.68/32 (rough value) 1/4 = 0.14 Immobilised or worse (average about 7 shots to kill)
IG melta at half range 3/6 27.68/32 (rough value) 1/4 = 0.1 Immobilised or worse (average about 10 shots to kill)

Can SM and IG shoot that many melta weapons at you? Hell yes. Will they need to? No most of the time they'll only need to stun you. And that means the 200+ falcon will just float around doing nothing; Nothing that is but drainging 200 points from your army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

gameandwatch wrote:Falcons are fine, wave serpents are spammed to hell because they are cheap extremely effective fast transports, the problem with them is that they are like more expensive chimeras, BL wavserpents are good, but in no way fill a full antitank role. Not to mention, having the same armor as a dread, even smaller arms like autocannons and such are more easily used to kill them, yet canceling the melta die thats gained from half range. They are great tanks, but cant fill the same shoes as falcons.

Falcons on the other hand fill more of a mix firebase role, while still having the ability to transport making them scoring. Sticking one of them at a home objective, with a dirt cheap troop inside, in cover, with holofields, is one nasty thing to kill. Plus, having a very unique weapon, the pulse laser, combine with a brightlance is 2 S8 AP2 shots at 48 inches, 3 S8 AP2 shots at 36 making it an extreme tank killer. Alternatively, give it a missle launcher, or shuriken cannon, turn the TL catapults to a cannon and you have a fairly effficient troop killer.

Its not a terrible tank, its actually possibly the most flexible, but it makes for an interesting situation. My friend uses them to great effect, planting them at home making outflanking extremely dangerous, while holding an objective, and he sticks a gaurdian unit in it or right outside of it with either that brightlance, or shuriken cannon, or eldar missle launcher, just increasing that firebase.

Imagine, a falcon with pulse and missle launcher, gaurdian unit with missle launcher, falcon has a shuriken cannon... thats a pretty nasty thing to run into.

What the hell? gaurdian unit are at least 10 man strong they won't fit till they've been shot at ... if you've shot at them there's a good chance they're going to run or be completely killed off.

You cannot compare a chimera to a serpant, a serpant is a fast skimmer, it can get star enguines for 20 points, it can move 36 inches in one turn, it can move over anything, it can contest a objective very effectivly with its range plus grantiing it a 4 plus cover save if it moves flat out, moving 12 inches from it then star enguine back to it, makeing any unit needing to hit it on 6's, chimera is good but should not be compared to a serpant.

Falcons are fine, wave serpents are spammed to hell because they are cheap extremely effective fast transports, the problem with them is that they are like more expensive chimeras, BL wavserpents are good, but in no way fill a full antitank role. Not to mention, having the same armor as a dread, even smaller arms like autocannons and such are more easily used to kill them, yet canceling the melta die thats gained from half range. They are great tanks, but cant fill the same shoes as falcons.

Falcons have the exact same armour as wave serpents, so im not sure were your going with that. And dont have the energy shield, and holofields makes them even more extensive.

Falcons on the other hand fill more of a mix firebase role, while still having the ability to transport making them scoring. Sticking one of them at a home objective, with a dirt cheap troop inside, in cover, with holofields, is one nasty thing to kill. Plus, having a very unique weapon, the pulse laser, combine with a brightlance is 2 S8 AP2 shots at 48 inches, 3 S8 AP2 shots at 36 making it an extreme tank killer. Alternatively, give it a missle launcher, or shuriken cannon, turn the TL catapults to a cannon and you have a fairly effficient troop killer.

Extreme tank killer? are we talking about the same thing, You only highlight the good points. theres multiple downsides
Ballistic skill 3, means half those shots will miss. Not being twinlinked like the wave serpent is a huge disadvantage. Plus it can only fire all those shots if it moves less than six inches, which is suicide on an army thats advantage is mobility. Same hands true if you put Shuriken cannons on the bottom.

Its not a terrible tank, its actually possibly the most flexible, but it makes for an interesting situation. My friend uses them to great effect, planting them at home making outflanking extremely dangerous, while holding an objective, and he sticks a gaurdian unit in it or right outside of it with either that brightlance, or shuriken cannon, or eldar missle launcher, just increasing that firebase.

Imagine, a falcon with pulse and missle launcher, gaurdian unit with missle launcher, falcon has a shuriken cannon... thats a pretty nasty thing to run into.

This is wrong on so many levels. Number one guardians cannot be put in Falcons. Number two this entire unit would have to stay stationary or only move six inches to release its fire power, which is suicide with an eldar army. Number three this unit is not cost effective. Heck it's at a rough estimate it'd be about 350 points, for 350 points you could buy units with higher damage and higher mobility.

Few points for comments int he thread:

Keeping bike unit back to use as scoring late in the game... the secret is to fill up whatever troop slots you have left with bike squads, and have them turbo each turn. Dont take a squad of 6 if you have another troop slot left, take 2 units of 3 each. Keep them turbo boosting all the time and then enjoy the wasted shots at 3+ cover saves.

Dont compare the serpent to the chimera, entirely different beasts. However, it certainly is legitimate to compare the serpent to the valk/ vendetta. Spirit stones on the serpent are similar to the built in extra armor of the Valk, transport capacity is the same, AV is the same, basic speed is the same. The cheapest valk is 100, cheapest serpent (with stones to balance the armor) is 110. The serpent gets an energy field and is a tank. The valk get better weapons, scout, deep strike, search light, and can deploy troops while moving flat out. So overall an edge to the valk in flexibility and weaponry.
Then there is the serpent vs vendetta comparison. The serpent can at best get a TL BL at 145. The vendetta gets 3 TL lascannons at 130 points. Plus all the other movement pluses of the valk.
Also, for 10 points the serpent can change its twin linked shuriken catapults into a shuriken cannon. For 10 points the v adds a pair of heavy bolters.
Eldar are supposed to be on the cutting edge of speed for an army. But their fast transport cant deepstrike and cant deploy troops while moving flat out like the IG transport can.....hmmmm.

Falcons fail now in large part because melta has become the staple AT component of many armies. When everyone was fielding lascannons falcons were fine, meltas are now so much more common tho so the metagame has switched in what your army will face.

And falcons are indeed expensive compared to the other eldar vehicles. A falcon with BL and just a holofield/ spirit stones for defense costs 190 points. That yields a tank with three BS3 str 8 shots, if you only move 6". Not exactly what most people consider really heavy weaponry. And then 5 DA to make a scoring unit brings it up to 250 points. A prism with holofields is 150, add 3 bikes comes to 216. The prism/ bikes is cheaper, a better long range shooting unit since it cvan move 12 and still shoot, and is more flexible since the prism and bikes do not HAVE to stay together. Altho the bikes certainly can hide behind the prism if they want, they can just as easily play turbo/ hide as well.

And its not just prisms that falcons are competing against in the heavy slot. For 180 points the eldar can field 3 war walkers with scatter lasers, not a bad unit at times. Or there is still a place for the WL in many lists, even heavily armed they come in well under the 190 point falcon.

Altho the prism does compete very well as a shhoty choice. Its cheaper and much more flexible. Being able to drop a large blast marker on hordes is very handy, and being able to add two prisms to get str 10 ap1 is very nice against LR or monoliths.

The falcon just doesnt have a place in the eldar list. Serpents are too much better as transports (as many of the other posts have pointed out, price, survivability and cargo space); bikes make a cheaper and more flexible scoring choice; and the other heavy choices are better at being shooty.

I still have 3 falcons, I just cant find a reason to play them outside of an apoc game.


Sliggoth

Sliggoth wrote:Few points for comments int he thread:

Keeping bike unit back to use as scoring late in the game... the secret is to fill up whatever troop slots you have left with bike squads, and have them turbo each turn. Dont take a squad of 6 if you have another troop slot left, take 2 units of 3 each. Keep them turbo boosting all the time and then enjoy the wasted shots at 3+ cover saves.

You sure i thought it was to keep them in reserve and then use turbo boosters each turn

Reserves is a nice place for them too, but if Im going first I tend to deploy them since some of the local players will waste shots at them the first turn that could instead be going onto my prisms and serpents. Nothing like having a dev squad fire at 3 bikes "because the 2 heavy bolters dont have range on the other stuff". Its nice to give them too many targets, sometimes they make bad choices.


Sliggoth

Basically it boils down to:
Falcons need to fire a bunch of weapons to be effective
Fire Prisms need to fire one

This means that Fire Prisms are mobile and Falcons are not.
That is why Fire Prisms are more popular and probably more effective now.

Falcons took a big hit to both firepower and survivability in 5th. Now that objectives matter more then VPs their "uberness" in 4th, which was that they couldn't be killed easily, isn't much of an advantage, and they are not as immune anymore.

BS 3 limits the firepower. Sure you can put a BL and a SC on them, but you wont be able to use them at full effectiveness if you are using your speed.

Whoa! Post a question and go to the beach for the day and you never know what could happen!

As the OP, I think my question has been answered. I will stick with Fire Prism as I want my army to be extremely mobile. I have 2 Falcon's from my previous experience playing, but I was unsure of their use in 5e. As I want an extremely mobile force, I think the Fire Prism fills that niche better. Thanks for all the input.

Some people posting in this thread lack knowledge of the game. Bikes are better objective grabbers than a falcon? The days of flying a fire dragon squad forward are dead? Moving 6" a turn you are dead? You are high, or you aren't playing 40K.

Bikes are space marines, and just as easy to kill. They have gakky firepower, and low leadership. They get charged and they die. A unit of avengers in a Falcon is FAR more survivable, has more firepower and is all around more useful. Hell, take a squad of rangers, shoot all game, park the falcon in cover next to them and it shoots too, then turn 4 hop the rangers in, turn 5 move 36" anywhere and laugh as the enemy tries to destroy the Falcon with what's left of his army. That is just one of many, many things you can do. I love my bike squad too, but I only use them because I generally play Elfzilla and need all my HS slots for my WL's.

And penetrating hits kill a falcon dead? Jebus, does anyone understand math here? Holofields make a falcon so much more survivable to penetrating hits than any other vehicle in the game, it is stupid. A super falcon is still incredibly tough. Rolling two dice, take the lowest means that a Falcon has 4 possible combinations to destroy it out of 36. That is 1 in 9, or 11%. Show me ANY other vehicle with that type of survivability. There is nothing that will deliver a unit as far, as safely as that. Plus, the nice icing on the cake of that is the fact that you get 3 str 8 shots a turn. Over a 6 turn game that is 9 hits, 3 of which will be lance hits. That is not bad. Against an armor 12 target, that will net you 3 glances and 6 pens. Assuming of course, you shoot every turn and are not stunned or moving fast.

But that is just it, it is just a nice bonus, not the main objective of the tank. A super falcon is, and always has been a super resilient taxi that can shoot well too. It is not a gunship, if you look at it that way, you have made a fundamental mistake. A super falcon with avengers fliess onto an objective turn 5 and the odds of it being destroyed and the unit inside dying are incredibly low. The Falcon can tank shock enemy infantry off of an objective as well, and their huge reach means they can go after objectives others can't. They are also hard to kill and still help a ton in Kill Point missions. Wave serpents are good too, but they flat out are not as survivable as a falcon. When you have a unit that must get somewhere when you want it there, nothing does it better than the Falcon.

Still, a seer council in a super falcon with Karandras, or on their own, or a super falcon with fire dragons, is going to deliver its payload to its intended target anywhere on the board almost every single time. That in and of itself, makes it a fantastic unit. If the use of that is not obviously apparent, then there really isn't much to say.

The problem I have always had with the prisim is that it is 2 heavy support slots and 230 pts base. 300 if you add fields. A single prisim is really a waste. For AT, the small template is more unreliable than 3 S8 BS3 shots, and the BS of 4 really doesnt give it much more reliability. The large blast is nice, but again suffers from scatter, and isnt the OMGkiller shot without the TL from linking.

So, the basic assumption of 1 falcon vs 1 prisim is flawed from the start. When you start to evaluate it from the position of 2 falcons vs 2 prisims, you come into all the things you mentioned above of the overall effectiveness of the prisim and its killyness (against ONE target if you link), but on the other side of the coin, you have 2 falcons, instead of 1. Thats 6 BS3, S8 shots, 2 X 6 troop transport capacity, and 2 Holofielded hulls (unless you think prisims deserve holofields, which I don't believe you do) to take hits. Yes, you have the same with the prisims, but once one is taken out of the equasion (destroyed weapon, wrecked, stunned if your interpretation of the rules prevents linking during stun...) the Pair is significantly reduced. It's effectively the cost of a land raider on an AV 12 hull. Given it's percieved killyness, its also a high priority target.

Myself, I see a very strong niche for 2 vehicles that can pump out 3 S8 shots a turn, and hold a small unit. Killing AV 10-12 targets, like transports effectively, or busting up AV 10-12 squadrons (i.e. guard) are the first to my mind. Keeping a scoring unit or countercharge unit out of harm's way, and able to re-deploy rapidly is another.

They have taken a major hit, and are not the uberdeathwagon they used to be, but they are by no means obsolete. I would say they are the perfect compliment to a pair of prisims in a list, because they can crack the rhinos and chimeras that the prisims dont want to shoot at, and expose the innards they DO want to shoot at. Additionally, they can hide a seercouncil, pack of clowns or dragons to deal with might be giving the prisims a hard time.

Reecius wrote:Some people posting in this thread lack knowledge of the game. Bikes are better objective grabbers than a falcon? The days of flying a fire dragon squad forward are dead? Moving 6" a turn you are dead? You are high, or you aren't playing 40K.

There is absolutley no need to get personal with remarks like that, everyone is entitled to there own opinion, and you seem to be taking everyone elses opinions personal, no one is attacking you they just do not agree with you for the most part, now when you post things like this it makes me think you know very little of the game and are a very immature player who is probably no fun to play against and mabey takes things a little bit to personal.

After reading your posts I think you lack knowlege of the game, I form personal experience with playing eldar for over 12 years notice that multiple bikes are a much better objective grabber than one falcon with 1 troop choice in it, 4 troop choices is much better odds and you have to split your fire to kill all 4 of them vs maximising fire power on one tank, wich is over priced. You can also get 2 5 man dire avenger squads in 2 wave serpants for around 40 points more wich is better if you do not fancy bikes, I think alot of people have posted valid reasons why the falcon is a bit over priced for what it can do and what you can get for the points and kept it clean and polite, if you don't share there opinion than post good reasons why and not name call or acuse them of being high and lack of knowlege in the game.

@Reecius
Some people posting in this thread lack knowledge of the game. Bikes are better objective grabbers than a falcon? The days of flying a fire dragon squad forward are dead? Moving 6" a turn you are dead? You are high, or you aren't playing 40K.
Eldar are an army that must continually out manoeuvre their enemy's. The days of flying a fire dragon squad are not dead but really why would you choose to sit them in a falcon? a wave serpent will be cheaper and since it can fit 12, you can take extra dragons.

Bikes are space marines, and just as easy to kill. They have gakky firepower, and low leadership. They get charged and they die. A unit of avengers in a Falcon is FAR more survivable, has more firepower and is all around more useful. Hell, take a squad of rangers, shoot all game, park the falcon in cover next to them and it shoots too, then turn 4 hop the rangers in, turn 5 move 36" anywhere and laugh as the enemy tries to destroy the Falcon with what's left of his army. That is just one of many, many things you can do. I love my bike squad too, but I only use them because I generally play Elfzilla and need all my HS slots for my WL's.
A squad in a falcon is indeed more protected but can do nothing till it disembarks. at Which point it is a dead parrot, 'E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
er any way ... a bike unit is cheap it gets a 3+ coversave when it turbo boost. Now if your shooting said squad your ignoring the rest of your army full of fire prisms, wave serpent with fire dragrons, ect.

And penetrating hits kill a falcon dead? Jebus, does anyone understand math here? Holofields make a falcon so much more survivable to penetrating hits than any other vehicle in the game, it is stupid. A super falcon is still incredibly tough. Rolling two dice, take the lowest means that a Falcon has 4 possible combinations to destroy it out of 36. That is 1 in 9, or 11%. Show me ANY other vehicle with that type of survivability. There is nothing that will deliver a unit as far, as safely as that. Plus, the nice icing on the cake of that is the fact that you get 3 str 8 shots a turn. Over a 6 turn game that is 9 hits, 3 of which will be lance hits. That is not bad. Against an armor 12 target, that will net you 3 glances and 6 pens. Assuming of course, you shoot every turn and are not stunned or moving fast.
Yes but its the old shake and move on syndrome if a falcon with a unit cost nearly 250pts if that unit cannot shoot that's a big chunk off your army not shooting. They only need to get lucky once you and your falcon need to be lucky ever damage roll.

But that is just it, it is just a nice bonus, not the main objective of the tank. A super falcon is, and always has been a super resilient taxi that can shoot well too. It is not a gunship, if you look at it that way, you have made a fundamental mistake. A super falcon with avengers fliess onto an objective turn 5 and the odds of it being destroyed and the unit inside dying are incredibly low. The Falcon can tank shock enemy infantry off of an objective as well, and their huge reach means they can go after objectives others can't. They are also hard to kill and still help a ton in Kill Point missions. Wave serpents are good too, but they flat out are not as survivable as a falcon. When you have a unit that must get somewhere when you want it there, nothing does it better than the Falcon.
But its not a super taxi. Its an expensive taxi. Turn 5 you can ether claim a close objective in your area or go for a far one. If you pick the close one what was the point of the falcon? If you risk a distant one your falcon wit have to move flat out. Making it far easier to kill. This will also put it in range of melta weapons which will slice it open with easy.

I gave you the odds vs Melta weapons earlier lets see how the WS handles them

Falcon
SM melta at half range 4/6 27.68/32 (rough value) 4/9 = 0.25 Immobilised or worse (average about 4 shots to kill)
IG melta at half range 3/6 27.68/32 (rough value) 4/9 = 0.2 Immobilised or worse (average about 5 shots to kill)

Wave Serpent
SM melta at half range 4/6 (2/6 4/6 + 1/6 2/6) = 0.18 Immobilised or worse (average about 5.5 shots to kill)
IG melta at half range 3/6 (2/6 4/6 + 1/6 2/6) = 0.13 Immobilised or worse (average about 7.5 shots to kill)

Falcon
SM melta at half range 4/6 27.68/32 (rough value) 1/4 = 0.14 wrecked or worse (average about 7 shots to kill)
IG melta at half range 3/6 27.68/32 (rough value) 1/4 = 0.1 wrecked or worse (average about 10 shots to kill)

Wave Serpent
SM melta at half range 4/6 (2/6 3/6 + 1/6 1/6) = 0.13 wrecked or worse (average about 7 shots to kill)
IG melta at half range 3/6 (2/6 3/6 + 1/6 1/6) = 0.1 wrecked or worse (average about 10 shots to kill)

Wait whats this the cheaper taxi is doing as well as the falcon how can this be? Easy the Wave serpents energy field is just as effective as the holo field rule. It make it harder to penetrate the tanks armour

Still, a seer council in a super falcon with Karandras, or on their own, or a super falcon with fire dragons, is going to deliver its payload to its intended target anywhere on the board almost every single time. That in and of itself, makes it a fantastic unit. If the use of that is not obviously apparent, then there really isn't much to say.
A Farseer, 4 warlock and karandras or 6 fire dragons .... kind of see where your coming from with the fire dragons ...no scrap that... how are you going to do this? ether You move very fast to where you need to drop them and sit there a turn or try to make sure they're within 12". Ether way that falcon is going to right next to some thing nasty which can ether move back forcing you to come closer (into the firing lines) or move forward and attack you. Thats where the WS has all the advantages it is cheaper its rules negate most of the danger at close range.

Reecius wrote:Some people posting in this thread lack knowledge of the game. Bikes are better objective grabbers than a falcon? The days of flying a fire dragon squad forward are dead? Moving 6" a turn you are dead? You are high, or you aren't playing 40K.

Bikes are space marines, and just as easy to kill. They have gakky firepower, and low leadership. They get charged and they die. A unit of avengers in a Falcon is FAR more survivable, has more firepower and is all around more useful. Hell, take a squad of rangers, shoot all game, park the falcon in cover next to them and it shoots too, then turn 4 hop the rangers in, turn 5 move 36" anywhere and laugh as the enemy tries to destroy the Falcon with what's left of his army. That is just one of many, many things you can do. I love my bike squad too, but I only use them because I generally play Elfzilla and need all my HS slots for my WL's.

And penetrating hits kill a falcon dead? Jebus, does anyone understand math here? Holofields make a falcon so much more survivable to penetrating hits than any other vehicle in the game, it is stupid. A super falcon is still incredibly tough. Rolling two dice, take the lowest means that a Falcon has 4 possible combinations to destroy it out of 36. That is 1 in 9, or 11%. Show me ANY other vehicle with that type of survivability. There is nothing that will deliver a unit as far, as safely as that. Plus, the nice icing on the cake of that is the fact that you get 3 str 8 shots a turn. Over a 6 turn game that is 9 hits, 3 of which will be lance hits. That is not bad. Against an armor 12 target, that will net you 3 glances and 6 pens. Assuming of course, you shoot every turn and are not stunned or moving fast.

But that is just it, it is just a nice bonus, not the main objective of the tank. A super falcon is, and always has been a super resilient taxi that can shoot well too. It is not a gunship, if you look at it that way, you have made a fundamental mistake. A super falcon with avengers fliess onto an objective turn 5 and the odds of it being destroyed and the unit inside dying are incredibly low. The Falcon can tank shock enemy infantry off of an objective as well, and their huge reach means they can go after objectives others can't. They are also hard to kill and still help a ton in Kill Point missions. Wave serpents are good too, but they flat out are not as survivable as a falcon. When you have a unit that must get somewhere when you want it there, nothing does it better than the Falcon.

Still, a seer council in a super falcon with Karandras, or on their own, or a super falcon with fire dragons, is going to deliver its payload to its intended target anywhere on the board almost every single time. That in and of itself, makes it a fantastic unit. If the use of that is not obviously apparent, then there really isn't much to say.

I remember when I used to think like this, until I realised that every point spent should be cost effective. When I was younger I used to think "man if I had x and y and z on my A then It'd be BAD ASS" then as I got older I began to think that a unit can be individually powerful, but if it costs so much that it detracts from other points of the army then it doesnt matter how cool it is, im still going to lose.

Take the vanguard for example, stats wise its an awesome unit, until you realise how much its going to cost.

The majority of players here are experienced, they realise that theres more than individual power of a unit, theres its cost and how it fits into a larger army.

The original point about elfbikes was that the poster in that case played in a metagame that made them next to useless. He mentioned indirect ordinance, much of which ignored the coversave (not invulnerable save, Tri) that the bikes have access to. Additionally, Lash, and other dirty tricks have an easy time with bikes in general. The falcon isn't an impregnable fortress from whence no light shall spill, but it's one heck of a step ahead of the bikes, and it's got one heck of a leg up against the massed S7/8 anti-transport firepower versus the werpent.

ya, your right its cover save =P i was half way through a rant at the point. But really you only need to shake ether tank and its not shooting so why go out of your mind upgrading a falcon? A wave serpent does every thing the falcon does. Yes its slightly weaker against low strength guns (6-7) but against High strength (8-10) it does better

Reecius: Some people posting in this thread lack knowledge of the game.

Crimson Fist: There is absolutley no need to get personal with remarks like that

Crimson Fist: After reading your posts I think you lack knowlege of the game

Haha, thanks captain hypocrisy, by your shining example, I have seen the err of my ways!
Oh yes, and P.S., welcome to Dakka, you don't have to be nice here, it's what gives the place it's charm!


@Tri
While I agree with your math, I disagree with its application. You have taken a limiting point of view. There is no reason, baring deep strikers, that a super falcon should be in short range of a melta weapon, ever. Being the fastest unit in the game, it should simply never happen, unless the Eldar player chooses to come within range of them. And still, melta weapons do not kill it with ease! Haha, it is still far more resilient than other equivalent units in any other army, as your numbers prove.

Thats where the WS has all the advantages it is cheaper its rules negate most of the danger at close range.

Run the numbers on any weapon that will typically hit the falcon, like autocannons, las cannons, ML's, and the difference is clear, the super falcon is far more survivable, particularly to assaults which are the real threat to tanks with rear armor 10 these days. A serpent gets the uber pwnge in assualt, where the falcon is MUCH tougher. I agree though, that a wave serpent is a great tank, I love them.

As for one lucky shooting attack downing the falcon, yes, of course that is a risk. But that is true of ANY unit in the game and since you can't plan for or against luck, it bears no place in theory hammer. And no, the Falcon does not need to be lucky every turn to survive, merely average.

A Farseer, 4 warlock and karandras or 6 fire dragons .... kind of see where your coming from with the fire dragons ...no scrap that... how are you going to do this?

You are joking right, you have never seen anyone fly up dragons, pop out and waste something? That can not be a new tactic to anyone. You don't put them in a serpent because you don't need more than 6! 6 is enough to kill any tank in the game on average baring a Monolith. Firedragons in a transport should be target priority number one to nearly any enemy, baring a horde player. So, you need them well protected. A serpent can do it too, but the falcon is just better equipped to survive.

And a Farseer, warlocks and Karandras running out of the back of a super falcon and engaging something in combat is new to you? How about Halries doing it, ever heard of that little trick? You know, the one that made Eldar top dog last edition? It is simple, you fly forward, take a round of shooting which statistically you will survive easily, and then jump out and charge. Farseer + warlocks + Karandras will kick the crap out of damn near anything but the most tooled up combat units, plus they are ludicrously hard to kill. You run it at anything that does not want to move, like shooty tanks, shooty units, etc. and force them to react to you or get killed next turn. Incredibly simple tactic. If they risk standing and shooting the Falcon but don't kill it, they get killed next turn. A prudent player will most likely back away, either way, you win.

And no, the Falcon does not need to be within 12" of its target to threaten them my good man, merely within 16" to 21" that is the threat range of assaulters coming out of a Falcon, or any vehicle if the unit within has FoF. With dragons it is 21" to 27" if you have a firepike, or 27" to 33" if the serpent or falcon moves then they jump out. If they run away from you, you are dictating the game, if they come towards you, that is what you want. Either way, you are forcing your opponent to react to you and you have tremendous reach. That is why if you use multiple units of them, say 3 serpents and 2 falcons, your opponent will not be able to shoot them all down in one round, not even close. You troops then get out and rape and pillage.

Eldar do not need to outmaneuver their enemy to win, that is the fluff talking. You can take an Eldar skimmer army, cram it with kill power, run it right down your opponent's throat, jump out and kick his ass the next turn. That is the way Eldar have played for years. It is simple math. Most armies will buckle under it. It is a brute force army, if you dance around trying to role play the fluff, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

I was going to run the numbers on the increased survivability of the falcon vs. wave serpent against various weapons but screw it, it has been done a million times before. Against anything but a close range melta weapon firing from the front or side arc, the falcon stands head and shoulders above the serpent, although the serpent is still great, especially when you use them in conjunction with falcons or prisms. But unless you are a dumb ass and run the falcon right at melta weapons that wont happen.

The majority of players here are experienced

Hahaha, right, while I wait for mommy to change my diaper, I will wrap this up because it's nap time!
Bro, I have been playing this silly little game for 15 years! I am not pulling crap out of my backside. I don't know everything, nor do I claim to, but I do know that the Falcon is well priced for what it is capable of doing.

And lastly, and most importantly, I hope no one takes any of this crap too seriously or personally, because I sure as hell don't. You guys can say anything you want to me and I won't give a gak, and if you zing me with a good one, I will laugh my ass off and say kudos. It's just the internet, and it's fun to stir the pot sometimes and see people flip out over these pointless little debates!


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but against High strength (8-10) it [wave serpent] does better

Wrongo!

Only against melta guns at close rang firing in the front or side arc does it do better than a falcon. Against ALL other weapons except a rail cannon where it is equal, but including assault, it is far superior.

L.Cannon at BS 4, in front arc, no cover save:

Falcon:
.66% to hit, .5% to pen, .11% to kill=.0363

Serpent:
.66% to hit, .33% to pen, .33% to kill= .0718

The Falcon is twice as durable.

How about a krak missle at BS 4?

Falcon: .023 to kill
Serpent: .0718 to kill

The falcon is three times as durable.

Rail cannon at BS 4?

Falcon: .1089 to kill
Serpent: .1089 to kill

Equal, but only because of the ap 1, against non AP 1 str 10 weapons, the falcon is more durable.

I could go on, but you get the point.

The problem in comparing a super falcon (heavily kitted out falcon and a DA scoring unit inside) against a bike squad is ... that its a fake.

For the points of a super falcon you can instead take 4 scoring squads of bikes. Yes an opponent can still shoot at the turbo boosting bikes once they all finally get on the board from reserves, but there is absolutely no way that the falcon is as surviveable as 4 separate squads that get 3+ cover saves. And the 4 squads can contest 4 separate objectives on top of it.

If the point was that a 270 point super falcon (this is the falcon, BL, holofields, spirit stones plus 5 DA... it gets worse if you add another DA or vectored engines) is a lot better than a 66 point squad of 3 bikes, well then yes it is.

For that matter, instead of the super falcon we can field a prism and 1-2 units of bikes. Better shooting and better scoring opportunities.

Bikes can die to ordinance of course (please let my opponents waste their shots at a 3 man bike squad, please!) or if they can somehow get close to them and get through the runes of warding then they can use their lash on them as well. If my opponent is doing either of these things then I rejoice because they are diverting powerful resources to kill an extremely small unit. Ordinance is going to scatter off of the bikes half of the time (more if its indirect) and what chaos player is going to send his lash unit to the fringes of the board chasing down 3 bikes?

It largely comes down to cost again. A tooled up falcon plus a scoring unit is a big chunk of points tied up in one package. There are just too many better ways to spend 270+ points in the eldar list. Heh, I might just want to spend 210 points on a walker squadron and guide it to shoot up that massed S7/8 anti-transport firepower on the other side of the board.

For that matter, dont compare the super falcon to a serpent ... for 270 points you can buy two serpents for some otherwise ground pounding units.

And on the mention of survivability of the falcon: dont forget that an immobilised result also stops the whole taxi idea. Unless you are already sitting on an objective then its not 11% chance that you are crippled, its 25%. You cant move onto an objective on turn 5 if on turn 3 you got immobilised.

Compare the points sunk into the unit, dont compare one expensive unit to one cheap unit.


Sliggoth

Reecius you miss the point.

As for one lucky shooting attack downing the falcon, yes, of course that is a risk. But that is true of ANY unit in the game and since you can't plan for or against luck, it bears no place in theory hammer. And no, the Falcon does not need to be lucky every turn to survive, merely average.

No the point is you stun the tank every thing else is a bonus.

You are joking right, you have never seen anyone fly up dragons, pop out and waste something? That can not be a new tactic to anyone. You don't put them in a serpent because you don't need more than 6! 6 is enough to kill any tank in the game on average baring a Monolith. Firedragons in a transport should be target priority number one to nearly any enemy, baring a horde player. So, you need them well protected. A serpent can do it too, but the falcon is just better equipped to survive.

Sorry but i like take a slightly larger unit they've a place for dealling with MeQ

And a Farseer, warlocks and Karandras running out of the back of a super falcon and engaging something in combat is new to you? How about Halries doing it, ever heard of that little trick? You know, the one that made Eldar top dog last edition? It is simple, you fly forward, take a round of shooting which statistically you will survive easily, and then jump out and charge. Farseer + warlocks + Karandras will kick the crap out of damn near anything but the most tooled up combat units, plus they are ludicrously hard to kill. You run it at anything that does not want to move, like shooty tanks, shooty units, etc. and force them to react to you or get killed next turn. Incredibly simple tactic. If they risk standing and shooting the Falcon but don't kill it, they get killed next turn. A prudent player will most likely back away, either way, you win.

no I've done it myself in 4th ... 5th i use a wave serpent and take more people.

And no, the Falcon does not need to be within 12" of its target to threaten them my good man, merely within 16" to 21" that is the threat range of assaulters coming out of a Falcon,

what are you smoking you can't assault if you move

With dragons it is 21" to 27" if you have a firepike, or 27" to 33" if the serpent or falcon moves then they jump out.

that wrong you move 12" so they can get out +6" for the melta at half range so 18" from the back of the tank. ok you could spin the tank round and get +2" but your showing your rear armour.

Eldar do not need to outmaneuver their enemy to win, that is the fluff talking. You can take an Eldar skimmer army, cram it with kill power, run it right down your opponent's throat, jump out and kick his ass the next turn. That is the way Eldar have played for years. It is simple math. Most armies will buckle under it. It is a brute force army, if you dance around trying to role play the fluff, you are shooting yourself in the foot.

Ok this shows how little you know about how to play eldar .... It is any thing but a brute force army. It has incredible power but it relies on it manoeuvrability and tactics to survive.

I was going to run the numbers on the increased survivability of the falcon vs. wave serpent against various weapons but screw it, it has been done a million times before. Against anything but a close range melta weapon firing from the front or side arc, the falcon stands head and shoulders above the serpent, although the serpent is still great, especially when you use them in conjunction with falcons or prisms. But unless you are a dumb ass and run the falcon right at melta weapons that wont happen.

No the point is the WS doesn't need to shoot to be doing its job, a falcon does. Every weapon that can damage the WS can damage the Falcon i only need to stun you and its wasted points.

I agree, but who in the blazes takes 4 naked biker squads? That is a kick in the nuts in kill points, and it is a limp noodle for anything but scoring as it has utterly no teeth. Remember, only one mission has more than 2 objectives, so 4 bike squads is a waste, IMO. You only need one. In the other two missions they are a liability. A falcon is much better in both cases as in killpoints good luck getting it form a super falcon, in secure and control, it is better for going after the enemy's one objective.

And agreed again on the immobilized result, but apply it equally to serpents, so it is a wash, unless you have vectored engines.

But anyway, this is a seriously old, dead horse. Serpents are great, bikers are very useful, and falcons, IMO, are not overpriced at all.

to the OP, try it out yourself, and take all of us blow hards with a grain of salt!


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@ Tri

No the point is you stun the tank every thing else is a bonus.

How is that ny different than a wave serpent? Haha, that point must be a very fine one indeed though as the two tanks perform the same role.

You charge out of the serpent/falcon BEFORE it moves, that is what gives you such a long reach. 2+ deploy, 1" for your base, 6" move, D6" for fleet, 6" charge. Pretty simple really.

And again, you have a 12" range for dragons, not 6". With tank hunters they waste things at over 6" too. So, for the feeble minded here, 2" deploy, 1" base, 12" range, 18" on the firepike. Again, very, very simple.

Ok this shows how little you know about how to play eldar .... It is any thing but a brute force army. It has incredible power but it relies on it manoeuvrability and tactics to survive.

Dude. Really? You fly forward, jump out and kill. It is as simple as simple can be. Been that way for years. Nothing new. Tactics shmactics, this is 40K, not Go. You have a groups of probabilities interacting with one another. You want to win? Jack all numbers in your favor, then club your enemy over the head with it.

No the point is the WS doesn't need to shoot to be doing its job

The falcon doesn't either, and I said that from the word go. It is a taxi, the most resilient one in the game, behind a monolith. The shooting is a bonus.


But whatever, you are free to have your opinion. This is quickly turning into a pissing contest, from which I shall now depart. Have fun fuming at the computer!

Looking at the super falcon plus the super unit made me cringe.

Falcon plus farseer plus 4 warlocks plus karandas is in the 600-650 point range.

Running that forward into melta range at high speed is just begging for an immobilised result to hand a third of your points to your opponent.

The math of 11% is not correct, since you are ignoring that immobilising shots cause skimmers to crash if they move over 12". Change that line to the correct 25% and it becomes .0825 that the falcon dies.

So if your SM opponent has a dozen heavy weapons in his army then running the super falcon and super unit into his teeth just about guarantees that you are handing him the game.

The above mainly pertains to the super falcon plus a super unit, but the math still affects any falcon. An immobilised result turns the super taxi into a soso pillbox.


Sliggoth

I would say that it is both a Brute Force army and a manevuerable army. It has extensive power, but it requires that you use your manevuerability to get your power into position.

If you play it as a pure powerhouse army like orks you'll smash against a wall and die, but dodging attacks all day without the ability to hit back hard will lose you the game.

Hahaha, right, while I wait for mommy to change my diaper, I will wrap this up because it's nap time!Bro, I have been playing this silly little game for 15 years! I am not pulling crap out of my backside

No your mommy is the one pulling the crap out of your back side when she changes your diapers right?

I think your full of crap since we don't have to pull any punches here, the posts I have read make more sense that the falcon is over priced and there are better options. and you offer no real substance to your arguments other than smack talking mixed in with I know what I am talking about trust me. Well then if you insist I trust that you are always correct why didnt you say so of course I will, youre numbers and logic do not add up when you compare the other options in a eldar list.

Reecius wrote: to the OP, try it out yourself, and take all of us blow hards with a grain of salt!

Always!

I do appreciate all the input and by listening to both sides, I am inclined to actually either buy new falcons (1) or find a way to get the horrible paint job off of my old ones. Simple Green should work right.

I personally like jetbikes, but I take them in a squad of 6, reserve them and use them for turn 5 objective grabs against the majority of my opponents. I have not had a problem with lash as I have only played one dual lash list and Runes negate his first 4 attempts with him failing three perils tests, so he stopped trying.

On Topic, I think that in the future, I might place my fire dragon squad in one, just to try it out. From the posts and my own usage, I know that holo fields can keep a skimmer alive for a long time.

Snakes on a Plane! Dragons work well in a Falcon, yes it's more expensive than a Wave Serpent, but it's also tougher. It all depends on what you need in a given match.

The Falcon is not useless, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It has it's ups and downs just like the Serpent does.

The falcon isnt useless, its just not worth sacrificing a heavy support slot and its to expensive.

If it was treated like a razorback to the Rhino then it'd be alot more useful, but whilst its not a dedicated transport but rather an over priced heavy support, its not going to be seen as much.

combo wrote:The falcon isnt useless, its just not worth sacrificing a heavy support slot and its to expensive.

If it was treated like a razorback to the Rhino then it'd be alot more useful, but whilst its not a dedicated transport but rather an over priced heavy support, its not going to be seen as much.

hell even if it was treated like a Valkyrie and took up a fast attack slot.

Reecius wrote:

No the point is the WS doesn't need to shoot to be doing its job

The falcon doesn't either, and I said that from the word go. It is a taxi, the most resilient one in the game, behind a monolith. The shooting is a bonus.

That was always the thing about the falcon, and something that it still has over a fire prism. A shaken fire prism is useless for a turn. A shaken falcon can still zoom up and deliver some kind of potentially threatening payload in the enemy's face.

You pay a premium for it, and I think the premium makes the falcon not quite a tier-one choice any more. I think you can happily run a competitive mechdar army with no falcons now. But I wouldn't go so far as to say that the falcon is useless.

And I stand by my original claim that fire dragons in a falcon are an inferior choice compared with fire dragons in a wave serpent--not just because of the different vulnerability to melta weapons but also because you can almost get two units of FDs in wave serpents for not much more than the cost of a single one in a falcon.