Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Reecius wrote:

Ok this shows how little you know about how to play eldar .... It is any thing but a brute force army. It has incredible power but it relies on it manoeuvrability and tactics to survive.

Dude. Really? You fly forward, jump out and kill. It is as simple as simple can be. Been that way for years. Nothing new. Tactics shmactics, this is 40K, not Go. You have a groups of probabilities interacting with one another. You want to win? Jack all numbers in your favor, then club your enemy over the head with it.

Just a question...have you played mech Eldar much in 5e? That used to work with our overpowered falcons and harlequins but it sure doesn't work anymore. I'm sorry, but I don't think any army exists where mech eldar can simply "fly forward, jump out, and kill" and expect to win the game. 5e changed a lot of things. If you take the point costs of the models that are inside our tanks, and put them up against the same points equivalent of models of almost any other army, their models will kill ours. I would love to hear an example from you explaining which army we can simply "fly forward, jump out and kill" against.

Eldar HAS TO thin out our opponent's army from afar before we can expect to unload and actually win the battle on ground. Either that or hope our opponent is stupid enough to split his army so that all of our tanks and the men inside can engage half of his army without retaliation...but that rarely happens against good opponents. Mech eldar is in NO WAY a brute force army anymore.

combo wrote:The falcon isnt useless, its just not worth sacrificing a heavy support slot and its to expensive.

as opposed to sacrificing 2 HS slots for one template?

0ldsk00l wrote:

combo wrote:The falcon isnt useless, its just not worth sacrificing a heavy support slot and its to expensive.

as opposed to sacrificing 2 HS slots for one template?

?Fire prisms should rarely need to combine beams. If your aiming at MeQ or Monolith maybe a combined beam is the thing for you. Otherwise they do a good job as is.

While I agree with your math, I disagree with its application. You have taken a limiting point of view. There is no reason, baring deep strikers, that a super falcon should be in short range of a melta weapon, ever. Being the fastest unit in the game, it should simply never happen, unless the Eldar player chooses to come within range of them. And still, melta weapons do not kill it with ease! Haha, it is still far more resilient than other equivalent units in any other army, as your numbers prove.

"Simply never happen" is an exageration.

New guard have several ways to get "long range" 2d6 armor pen. Devil dogs can move 12" and fire 12" for 24" range. Medusa's can have a 48" range 2d6 armor pen. The Vanquisher has a long range 2d6 armor pen.

Manimal wrote:

While I agree with your math, I disagree with its application. You have taken a limiting point of view. There is no reason, baring deep strikers, that a super falcon should be in short range of a melta weapon, ever. Being the fastest unit in the game, it should simply never happen, unless the Eldar player chooses to come within range of them. And still, melta weapons do not kill it with ease! Haha, it is still far more resilient than other equivalent units in any other army, as your numbers prove.

"Simply never happen" is an exageration.

New guard have several ways to get "long range" 2d6 armor pen. Devil dogs can move 12" and fire 12" for 24" range. Medusa's can have a 48" range 2d6 armor pen. The Vanquisher has a long range 2d6 armor pen.

...and what about a 60pt Land-speeders? ether deepstrikes in behind you or a pair quickly corner you (they are just as fast as the falcon but so much cheaper)

I felt I should comment on this thread because it was me that mentioned the scoring falcon as a viable unit in the first place.

A couple thoughts:

I have found that waveserpents are pretty much as good as falcons at delivering squads to their destination. In general I tend to run my fire dragons in a waveserpent now instead of a Falcon.

The falcon has a different a very important role in 5th in my mind. Late game scoring and resilience to long range shooting...

So why is the falcon better?

The holofield makes the falcon more surviable from shooting. The holo field also works agianst hth, which is really important when you are on an objective and things are trying to take you down at the end of the game.

I personally run my Falcon with Eldrad, 5 dire avengers, holofields, spirit stones and vectored engines.

End game, if I tank shock onto an objective, you then have to kill the damn tank, which is hard. If you immobilize it, you still have to spend yet another turn killing the tank. Then the troops deploy in the wreckage and you have to destroy them, and Eldrad can make the complicated.

Eldrad basically make the list more hard core, because he can fortune and doom units from inside the tank.

You can do things like fortune your fire prisms or waveserpents so they re roll their cover saves.

The problem with Eldar is not that they don't win (I win almost every game with them), it's that they don't win big. You simply don;t massacre with them, so it's hard to win big tournies.

Pete

deFl0 wrote:I felt I should comment on this thread because it was me that mentioned the scoring falcon as a viable unit in the first place.

A couple thoughts:

I have found that waveserpents are pretty much as good as falcons at delivering squads to their destination. In general I tend to run my fire dragons in a waveserpent now instead of a Falcon.

The falcon has a different a very important role in 5th in my mind. Late game scoring and resilience to long range shooting...

So why is the falcon better?

The holofield makes the falcon more surviable from shooting. The holo field also works agianst hth, which is really important when you are on an objective and things are trying to take you down at the end of the game.

I personally run my Falcon with Eldrad, 5 dire avengers, holofields, spirit stones and vectored engines.

End game, if I tank shock onto an objective, you then have to kill the damn tank, which is hard. If you immobilize it, you still have to spend yet another turn killing the tank. Then the troops deploy in the wreckage and you have to destroy them, and Eldrad can make the complicated.

Eldrad basically make the list more hard core, because he can fortune and doom units from inside the tank.

You can do things like fortune your fire prisms or waveserpents so they re roll their cover saves.

The problem with Eldar is not that they don't win (I win almost every game with them), it's that they don't win big. You simply don;t massacre with them, so it's hard to win big tournies.

Pete

all the above can be done with a wave serpent if you really must hide, keep them in reserve.

It's not about hiding... To win with Mech Eldar you have to be aggressive at close range with your tanks at the end of the game.

The Holo field makes the falcons considerably more durable against hth. This is a huge deal.

Also with Eldrad, you are largely staying at arms length to re enforce your army. The falcon with holofield is more durable against long range fire power, and has a better long range weapon set up.

Don't get me wrong in 5th the waveserpent has largely replaced the falcon is most transport roles, but when you need a scoring unit that you can count on to be there in the last turn of every game the choice is the falcon not the waveserpent.

It's worth the extra points in my experience.

Flavius Infernus wrote:And I stand by my original claim that fire dragons in a falcon are an inferior choice compared with fire dragons in a wave serpent--not just because of the different vulnerability to melta weapons but also because you can almost get two units of FDs in wave serpents for not much more than the cost of a single one in a falcon.

This pretty much sums up the whole argument against the falcon. You can take two units of eldar and two serpents for about the same price as a super falcon with one eldar unit and an expensive character.

deFlo, using this strategy, you don't need to hide a unit in a falcon and have Eldrad babysit, because you're getting a twofer, and you will be better equipped for attrition.

deFl0 wrote:It's not about hiding... To win with Mech Eldar you have to be aggressive at close range with your tanks at the end of the game.

The Holo field makes the falcons considerably more durable against hth. This is a huge deal.

Also with Eldrad, you are largely staying at arms length to re enforce your army. The falcon with holofield is more durable against long range fire power, and has a better long range weapon set up.

Don't get me wrong in 5th the waveserpent has largely replaced the falcon is most transport roles, but when you need a scoring unit that you can count on to be there in the last turn of every game the choice is the falcon not the waveserpent.

It's worth the extra points in my experience.

Yes i on the other hand find more guns = more dead. Much more likely to table or get massive victory. If I want a scoring unit there's so many to choose from that are cheaper or do the job better.

This is where we fundamentally disagree.

I believe there is no unit combo in the Eldar codex that is a more resilient scoring unit than dire avengers in a falcon with holo fields, spirit stones and vectored engines.

Plus it makes a good Eldrad Chariot, and he totally changes the list.

deFl0 wrote:I believe there is no unit combo in the Eldar codex that is a more resilient scoring unit than dire avengers in a falcon with holo fields, spirit stones and vectored engines.

This might be true, wraithguard in cover are also very resilient to long range fire, but the large amount of long range/fast moving melta like weapons kill the falcon as easily as the waveserpent.

Lol. I guess...

If you do the math, statistically it's like 27 BS4 melta guns shots to destroy a fortuned falcon.

It's things like lootas squads or tons of Hydras which scare me, but to each there own.

Pete

deFl0 wrote:Lol. I guess...

If you do the math, statistically it's like 27 BS4 melta guns shots to destroy a fortuned falcon.

It's things like lootas squads or tons of Hydras which scare me, but to each there own.

Pete

At what range? At 1/2 range, then it's 2/3 to hit, times 5/6 to pen, times 1/4 to destroy, so: 5/28 to destroy a falcon in one shot, or 5-6 BS4 melta shots. At greater than half range you only pen 1/3 of the time, so it's reduced to 1/18, or 18 melta gun shots.

The main issue I find is the Falcon's added cost compaired to the Serpent and what tha tadded cost delivers. A falcon can infact give that extra boost of firepower, but the holofields only make the hit less painful not prevent it from happening. This means that you'll be shaken more often then a Serpent (or about the same amount) and that negates the added firepower.

deFl0 wrote:
If you do the math, statistically it's like 27 BS4 melta guns shots to destroy a fortuned falcon.

deFl0 wrote: believe there is no unit combo in the Eldar codex that is a more resilient scoring unit than dire avengers in a falcon with holo fields, spirit stones and vectored engines.

This claim didn't include Eldrad.

Not using the quick and dirty way( but using (n choose k) * p^k*(1-p)^(n-k)):

at half range (hence the long range/fast melta comment) it takes 4 melta pens to have a 69% chance of destroying it.

Edited many times because Manimal doesn't type well.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Adding Eldrad and fortune scales the same for a waveserpent, so it is not really important in determining if the super falcon is the most survivable unit or not.

Also every pro-falcon arguement has still failed to consider the expense of such a unit, they routinely say "5 dire avengers plus Falcon and Eldrad makes a super tough tank" but then fail to consider that such a unit costs near 500 points, thats close to 1 third of a 1500 priced army on just one capturing unit.

I run a Falcon w/ 5 Dire avengers in it soley for the purpose of making it scoring. Deflo pretty much hit the nail on the head with how mech Eldar work in 5th.

I don't run Eldrad IN the Falcon though - I think he's a much bigger work horse inside the Council w/ yriel who rides in the serpent.

Lazarus.

I think that the falcon is an awesome battletank. It has a two shot bright lance and any weapon you like, also is has some transport ability. THe main problem is that if you try using it as a transport you are going to get beaten because it costs to much to throw away. I do not think that is is overpriced I think that using it as a transport is stupid as you are trowing away alot of firepower and the waveserpent is a better transport that costs less. People just use it wrong.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:I think that the falcon is an awesome battletank. It has a two shot bright lance and any weapon you like, also is has some transport ability. THe main problem is that if you try using it as a transport you are going to get beaten because it costs to much to throw away. I do not think that is is overpriced I think that using it as a transport is stupid as you are trowing away alot of firepower and the waveserpent is a better transport that costs less. People just use it wrong.

It doesn't really have a "two shot bright lance" because the pulse laser doesn't have the "lance" special rule.

willydstyle wrote:

Addicted to Bleach wrote:I think that the falcon is an awesome battletank. It has a two shot bright lance and any weapon you like, also is has some transport ability. THe main problem is that if you try using it as a transport you are going to get beaten because it costs to much to throw away. I do not think that is is overpriced I think that using it as a transport is stupid as you are trowing away alot of firepower and the waveserpent is a better transport that costs less. People just use it wrong.

It doesn't really have a "two shot bright lance" because the pulse laser doesn't have the "lance" special rule.

if it did have a 2 shot bright lance i might think about taking one as a tank hunter (2 shots are better then TL) ... As it is it cost too much ... may be when we get codex elder 5th edition it'll get a rule like lumbering (IG) and be of some use again (or simply get a price drop)

whitedragon wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:And I stand by my original claim that fire dragons in a falcon are an inferior choice compared with fire dragons in a wave serpent--not just because of the different vulnerability to melta weapons but also because you can almost get two units of FDs in wave serpents for not much more than the cost of a single one in a falcon.

This pretty much sums up the whole argument against the falcon. You can take two units of eldar and two serpents for about the same price as a super falcon with one eldar unit and an expensive character.

deFlo, using this strategy, you don't need to hide a unit in a falcon and have Eldrad babysit, because you're getting a twofer, and you will be better equipped for attrition.

Whoah, hold on, Whitedragon. Thanks for quoting me, but notice I said *fire dragons* in a wave serpent, not "Eldar" in a waveserpent. Fire dragons are better in a wave serpent than a falcon, but they are not a scoring unit and aren't going to try to be sitting on an objective at the end of a game, surviving HtH attacks.

I'm actually with DeFlo on this one. DAs in a falcon has definite strategic advantages that make it at least as viable a choice as DAs in a wave serpent.

Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm actually with DeFlo on this one. DAs in a falcon has definite strategic advantages that make it at least as viable a choice as DAs in a wave serpent.

But the same logic can be applied to the DA's as well as the Fire Dragons. Sitting on an objective sucking HTH attacks means it's in melta range for sure, which makes the serpent more survivable.

And you can't ever argue with cheap.

I think you can (at the risk of over-generallizing) make a pretty simple statement about the falcon.

The falcon is one of the few jack of all trades units in the Eldar army (the only other ones I can think of are councils and wraithlords). They have firepower, surivivability, mobility, transport capacity, and the option of becoming scoring. In exchange for versatility, they pay an expensive premium.

I know that the Eldar army is an army of specialists; but some people, IMHO, like to have some generalists in their army. It comes down to your play style I suppose.

whitedragon wrote:

Flavius Infernus wrote:I'm actually with DeFlo on this one. DAs in a falcon has definite strategic advantages that make it at least as viable a choice as DAs in a wave serpent.

But the same logic can be applied to the DA's as well as the Fire Dragons. Sitting on an objective sucking HTH attacks means it's in melta range for sure, which makes the serpent more survivable.

And you can't ever argue with cheap.

The difference is that DAs are troops.

Fire dragons have no particular reason to sit on an objective at the end of the game--anything can contest.