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Orkeosaurus wrote:I've heard people call people from other countries African-American on account of being black.

It's sad.

Oh man, That reminds me, There was a "incident" here in the UK, where a presenter called a Football Player Black, not out of any sort of racist intent, just because, well he is black, and his American co host started having ago at him for saying black and not African American.

The Football Player was from London

....a deep undercurrent of hatred for Obama that goes beyond his politics. I don't know how much of it there really is, but there is a decent amount.

But not everyone is riding it. We're actually doing pretty swell in America as far as race relations go in this world. I wish more people would let go of it all.

I'd agree. It hasn't been as much of an issue as you might have thought from reading the press before the election.

Scrabb wrote:

....a deep undercurrent of hatred for Obama that goes beyond his politics. I don't know how much of it there really is, but there is a decent amount.

But not everyone is riding it. We're actually doing pretty swell in America as far as race relations go in this world. I wish more people would let go of it all.

We're doing better than most countries, and we've improved dramatically, but it's simply naive to hope to wish away the effects of racism. It's still there, it's still hurting people.

Scrabb wrote:

....a deep undercurrent of hatred for Obama that goes beyond his politics. I don't know how much of it there really is, but there is a decent amount.

But not everyone is riding it. We're actually doing pretty swell in America as far as race relations go in this world. I wish more people would let go of it all.

Like that guy who tried to shoot up the Holocaust museum in D.C.? Yes, things have come a long, long way. But it's far from perfect.

Besides, I heard many, many times during the election how much danger Obama would be in if he won. It's certainly not all rainbows and flowers.

garret wrote:That is wrong cause right know whites are a minority.

You've misunderstood the meaning of racism in this context. It isn't just about raw numbers, but the power each group holds in society. Hence women have been referred to as a minority despite being slightly more numerous than men, because men are far more likely to hold positions of power in government and business.

So regardless of the numbers of white people compared to, umm, every other racial group combined, its still white dudes who dominate the power structure.


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Scrabb wrote:But not everyone is riding it. We're actually doing pretty swell in America as far as race relations go in this world. I wish more people would let go of it all.

It's an easy thing to say that America is fine, or anywhere else really, when you are in a position of priviledge. It's true that the US like most other places, has declining numbers in its hate groups, and incidents of racial violence are not what they were just a few decades ago. But that doesn't represent the entirety of racism. The discrepancy in life expectancy, in income... by 'let go of it all' you're basically saying these things shouldn't be challenged. That's just plain wrong.

Huh? I would say there is a lot of anti Obama just because hes black, hell I could name nine or so people off the top of my head who don't like him for that exact reason. Don't you just love small town Ontario?

Anyways a good point to make is that Bush was frequently reffered to as a monkey or chimp and was almost always made to look chimp like in political cartoons because of his big ears. Yet as soon as you do the same thing to Obama (the only one I know of is the strip that compares him to that mad chimp that bit off a ladies face) people go apeshit on the artist cause he did what he has done to bush for 8 friggen years.

In the world maybe. Not in the United States, and that's not even counting white Hispanics.

WTF is a white Hispanic?

I don't think that anything Sotomayor says can come close to the history of discrimination in this country. White people are the best off in terms of socio-economic standings. Which means that they are in the position (as they have been for hundreds of years) to do far more damage with their discrimination than other racial groups.

This here is something that pisses me off. Why the hell should I feel guilty cause my great great grandpa was a slave owner. Its not like I had any freaking say in the matter, and yet I am expected to feel guilty for it and pay reparations? If my dad murders a person before I am even born I don't see how any of the blame can be transferred to me. Secondly, the whole damn worlds been racist since mankind found other humans that they could stomp on, quite your bitching and move on in life. Whites weren't given their socio economic status by mooching off of anyone else. We fought and clawed our way to the top and if you want a peice of the pie by golly you have got to earn it. My great great Grandfather did. If he earned his societal place at the expense of a bunch of black fellers well thats their problem. I'm not about to give up my comfortable posisiton so you can get a free pass. The world has always worked this way. GEt friggen used to it.

Thirdly, though I don't know how much this ties in and I am pretty sure Im going to catch flak for it but whats the deal with special programs and scholarships that target a particular race/people, is it such an importance occurence that one of x people has managed to accomplish what a crapload of other people have done before? Gah rant over....

Looking at it globally makes no sense anyways. It's too dependent on the place you're talking about.

I was sort of going for the racist individuals to drop the matter... That would be best. I'm fully expecting four Klu Klux members to renounce their wicked ways because of my post on this board.

Yup, we have come a long way from hundreds of thousands of white supremacists marching through D.C. to where we are today. As for that fellow doing the shootings, we have five times that many high school kids who go on shootings because they can't find meaning in life.

Racism is not going to destroy America and you don't have to be scared of it. Just speak out against it when you witness it in your life.

Orkeosaurus wrote:]Actually, sebster was using the same example that Gwar originally used. Don't be intentionally daft.

I'm not playing dumb here, I'm saying it wasn't a great example.

Assuming that black pudding is made with "foreign" ingredients, and thus takes longer to cook, is completely illogical, but that doesn't make it racism.

Gwar! wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I've heard people call people from other countries African-American on account of being black.

It's sad.

Oh man, That reminds me, There was a "incident" here in the UK, where a presenter called a Football Player Black, not out of any sort of racist intent, just because, well he is black, and his American co host started having ago at him for saying black and not African American.

The Football Player was from London

I've always found it strange how pissy americans get over PC. Do I get angry when someone calls me white instead of Russian American, I have only ever met one black person who came from Africa. If your family has lived in America for 150-200 then your American. It’s discrimination and racism to consider you anything else then an American

Wow. I'll go point by point here.

This here is something that pisses me off. Why the hell should I feel guilty cause my great great grandpa was a slave owner. Its not like I had any freaking say in the matter, and yet I am expected to feel guilty for it and pay reparations? If my dad murders a person before I am even born I don't see how any of the blame can be transferred to me.

You're certainly not guilty of it by any means. But you should feel something for people who were systematically exploited for generations. I don't think anyone is asking you to pay reparations.

Secondly, the whole damn worlds been racist since mankind found other humans that they could stomp on, quite your bitching and move on in life.

Accepting injustice as inevitable is sheeplike behavior. People can change things for the better. If you claim that racism is innate, I disagree. Either way, you cannot argue that it is right or that it should be tolerated just because it has happened in the past. Unless you think that people should be able to kill each other like it was the Stone Age?

Whites weren't given their socio economic status by mooching off of anyone else. We fought and clawed our way to the top and if you want a peice of the pie by golly you have got to earn it. My great great Grandfather did. If he earned his societal place at the expense of a bunch of black fellers well thats their problem. I'm not about to give up my comfortable posisiton so you can get a free pass. The world has always worked this way. GEt friggen used to it.

Ok. They didn't mooch. Fair enough. They did exploit other people, which is quite similar. You seem to believe that might makes right, which is not at all true. White people "fought and clawed" their way up the rungs by stepping on the faces of others. The first people exploited in America were young white men from England. Since then, it's been foreigners, first as slaves, then as immigrants paid tiny wages and given hovels to live in while the bosses made money off their labor. None of this is right, none of it is directly our fault either as whites living in 2009. What is our responsibility is to provide a level playing field, where an individual can work their way up in an HONEST way. No one is discussing the giving of "free passes" here. Just because the world works in a crappy way doesnt mean that we should "get friggen used to it." It means that something needs to change.

youbedead wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I've heard people call people from other countries African-American on account of being black.

It's sad.

Oh man, That reminds me, There was a "incident" here in the UK, where a presenter called a Football Player Black, not out of any sort of racist intent, just because, well he is black, and his American co host started having ago at him for saying black and not African American.

The Football Player was from London

I've always found it strange how pissy americans get over PC. Do I get angry when someone calls me white instead of Russian American, I have only ever met one black person who came from Africa. If your family has lived in America for 150-200 then your American. It’s discrimination and racism to consider you anything else then an American

Even the term "American of African Decent" is a misnomer because everyone is of African Decent.

But yeah, the very fact that the US have to differentiate people into American and African American to be "PC" is rather sad.

Ratbarf wrote:Anyways a good point to make is that Bush was frequently reffered to as a monkey or chimp and was almost always made to look chimp like in political cartoons because of his big ears. Yet as soon as you do the same thing to Obama (the only one I know of is the strip that compares him to that mad chimp that bit off a ladies face) people go apeshit on the artist cause he did what he has done to bush for 8 friggen years.

Context and history matters. There is an ugly history of likening black people to ape, implying they are less evolved.

This here is something that pisses me off. Why the hell should I feel guilty cause my great great grandpa was a slave owner.

Do you have to feel guilty to want to fix something?

Whites weren't given their socio economic status by mooching off of anyone else.

Given the wealth and power of different white groups came largely from massively unfair relationships including colonialism and slavery, I'd say that's a very dubious statement at best.

The world has always worked this way. GEt friggen used to it.

The world has been unfair is hardly an argument to ensure it continues being unfair. If something can be fixed, so that people of all ethnicities and backgrounds have equal opportunities, why would anyone oppose that?

sebster wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:]Actually, sebster was using the same example that Gwar originally used. Don't be intentionally daft.

I'm not playing dumb here, I'm saying it wasn't a great example.

Assuming that black pudding is made with "foreign" ingredients, and thus takes longer to cook, is completely illogical, but that doesn't make it racism.

Ratbarf wrote:Huh? I would say there is a lot of anti Obama just because hes black, hell I could name nine or so people off the top of my head who don't like him for that exact reason. Don't you just love small town Ontario?

Anyways a good point to make is that Bush was frequently reffered to as a monkey or chimp and was almost always made to look chimp like in political cartoons because of his big ears. Yet as soon as you do the same thing to Obama (the only one I know of is the strip that compares him to that mad chimp that bit off a ladies face) people go apeshit on the artist cause he did what he has done to bush for 8 friggen years.

That's a double standard. Plain and simple. Now, one of the reasons it exists is because blacks were frequently lampooned as apes as a way of showing the were lesser, or not even, humans, while white people are shown to be chimps because it's funny. It's similar to the old "n-word" debate, about how is it fair that black people can use it and white people can't. At some point you just say, "it's not fair, but as black people they lower life expectancy, standard of living, and access to governmental services... so we'll let them have that one."

In the world maybe. Not in the United States, and that's not even counting white Hispanics.

WTF is a white Hispanic?

Um, it's a person of hispanic ethnicity (deriving in nationality from latin america), that is mostly or entirely white in racial make up. Hispanics range in race from ultra-honkey down in Argentina to very, very black in Haiti, with a sliding scale including indian heritage as well.

This here is something that pisses me off. Why the hell should I feel guilty cause my great great grandpa was a slave owner. Its not like I had any freaking say in the matter, and yet I am expected to feel guilty for it and pay reparations? If my dad murders a person before I am even born I don't see how any of the blame can be transferred to me.

Well, the argument would be that you still have advantages and perks because of that arrangement. You started in a better position because of your birth. You needn't feel guilty, but understanding that not everbody starts the game with the same position is a big first step.

Secondly, the whole damn worlds been racist since mankind found other humans that they could stomp on, quite your bitching and move on in life. Whites weren't given their socio economic status by mooching off of anyone else.

This is where you start veering into some interesting rhetoric. Whites achieved their social economic status by stealing a continent wholesale from the indians, and shipped over african slaves to do the work. So, yes, there was some mooching going on. Or really outright theft.

We fought and clawed our way to the top and if you want a peice of the pie by golly you have got to earn it. My great great Grandfather did. If he earned his societal place at the expense of a bunch of black fellers well thats their problem. I'm not about to give up my comfortable posisiton so you can get a free pass. The world has always worked this way. GEt friggen used to it.

And here we come to end of the line. Might makes right, apparently. I also like how any requests for equality are a "free pass."

Thirdly, though I don't know how much this ties in and I am pretty sure Im going to catch flak for it but whats the deal with special programs and scholarships that target a particular race/people, is it such an importance occurence that one of x people has managed to accomplish what a crapload of other people have done before? Gah rant over....

Yes. It's important to have exemplars to all people that they can do what they want. When you are a minority, you face racism virtually day of your life. It's not ridiculous that a child in those circumstances would assume that certain careers or positions are simply blocked due to racism. If you can't rent an apt because your, say, Laotion, why would you think you could become a doctor?

Gwar! wrote:Even the term "American of African Decent" is a misnomer because everyone is of African Decent.

But yeah, the very fact that the US have to differentiate people into American and African American to be "PC" is rather sad.

No, it isn't. It's the logical consequence of people needing to recognise that the colour of your skin matters. What is sad is the number of people in positions of priviledge who refuse to see that they have it easier, and that maybe that isn't right.

sebster wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Even the term "American of African Decent" is a misnomer because everyone is of African Decent.

But yeah, the very fact that the US have to differentiate people into American and African American to be "PC" is rather sad.

No, it isn't. It's the logical consequence of people needing to recognise that the colour of your skin matters. What is sad is the number of people in positions of priviledge who refuse to see that they have it easier, and that maybe that isn't right.

Well, if you need to know the colour of someone's skin, why not just say "XYZ has a lot of melanin"? Or even just say "he has Dark Skin, he has Light Skin, he has Tanned skin". The fact that US Society seems to be based off an irrational hatred based on the amount of melanin someone has is just sad.

youbedead wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I've heard people call people from other countries African-American on account of being black.

It's sad.

Oh man, That reminds me, There was a "incident" here in the UK, where a presenter called a Football Player Black, not out of any sort of racist intent, just because, well he is black, and his American co host started having ago at him for saying black and not African American.

The Football Player was from London

I've always found it strange how pissy americans get over PC. Do I get angry when someone calls me white instead of Russian American, I have only ever met one black person who came from Africa. If your family has lived in America for 150-200 then your American. It’s discrimination and racism to consider you anything else then an American

One of the things we believe in this country is self determination. If a group wants to be called something, than it's only fair to respect it. Black people want to be called African American, which in many ways shows that they have an ancestry, not a race. White people talk all the time about their ancestry, or they do in the north where there are a lot of immigrant stock. I'm half polish, quarter German, and quarter scotch-irish. I'm also white. A black person, more or less robbed of his actual ancestry, isn't just black, he's also African American. In many ways the two terms, black and african american, are the same, but in many ways their different. A recent African immigrant wouldn't say African-American, he'd say Nigerian American.

And honestly, I think most of the black community has stopped making news about being called African American, simply because it's unwieldy. It's still at least polite to use the term that a group wants.

Scrabb wrote:

Racism is not going to destroy America and you don't have to be scared of it. Just speak out against it when you witness it in your life.

QFT


Also, saying "a white person is more powerful than a black person because white people have more money on average" is as flawed as saying "a black person is more dangerous than a white person because black people are imprisoned more on average".

You can talk about populations if you want, but it's unfair to the individual to act like whatever traits are more common to their population apply to them. That goes triple for traits that are inborn.

sebster wrote:You're being quite obtuse there. Gwar made the point that saying a pudding is black is not racism, he made this point in a thread about charges of racism over criticism of a black President. I made the point that the comment on a pudding being black may or may not be racist depending on context and intention. I was very obviously not talking about a pudding but about a President, just as Gwar was.

The comment on black pudding cannot be racist, it's just nonsensical, because black pudding is not a race.

You cannot discriminate against pudding based on race in the same manner that you can a person, because pudding does not have a race, only a color.

Were you talking about how long the president should be cooked in an oven? No, of course not. You were making a statement on illogical assumptions made about pudding, as an analogy to illogical statements about president Obama, but ended it with the claim that it was racist to make those assumptions about the pudding, which it isn't, even though it would be if you were talking about Obama.

Also, I don't even know if Gwar!'s original statement was supposed to be an analogy. It certainly doesn't work very well as one, because "black" is being used to mean wildly different things.

Black Pudding is too a race! I'm gonna sue you now!

Accepting injustice as inevitable is sheeplike behavior. People can change things for the better. If you claim that racism is innate, I disagree. Either way, you cannot argue that it is right or that it should be tolerated just because it has happened in the past. Unless you think that people should be able to kill each other like it was the Stone Age?

I never said they shouldn't fight it. By all means work your way up that societal ladder. Just don't expect any helping hands along the way. As for the acceptability of killing people, wake up dude. Acceptability has nothing to do with whether or why someone kills another person. Acceptability itself is simply a set of arbitrary guidlines set down by a bunch of people in an attempt to create what they think is an ideal way of acting in their ideal society.

Do you have to feel guilty to want to fix something?

Generally, Im a very apathetic person. You have to either get me to hate it, get me to want it, or get me to feel guilty about it, to get me to do anything.

Context and history matters. There is an ugly history of likening black people to ape, implying they are less evolved.

True, but I don't see how it is any less insulting to Mr Bush, and thus outrage worthy, than it should be to Mr Obama.

The world has been unfair is hardly an argument to ensure it continues being unfair. If something can be fixed, so that people of all ethnicities and backgrounds have equal opportunities, why would anyone oppose that?

Cause that would mean I, an inbred hillbilly redneck uppermiddleclass white person, would be inconvenienced and lose my share of the proverbial pie. Now why would I want that to happen?

Ok. They didn't mooch. Fair enough. They did exploit other people, which is quite similar.

Nope, taking some kids lunchmoney is majorly different than making that kid feel so guilty about his father stealing your father's lunch money so that he gives you his lunch money instead.

But you should feel something for people who were systematically exploited for generations. I don't think anyone is asking you to pay reparations.

Im part Irish and Welsh, we were systematically exploited for hundreds of years yet you don't hear me crying for Irish only scholarships and social programs that are too be funded by everyone else.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Scrabb wrote:

Racism is not going to destroy America and you don't have to be scared of it. Just speak out against it when you witness it in your life.

QFT


Also, saying "a white person is more powerful than a black person because white people have more money on average" is as flawed as saying "a black person is more dangerous than a white person because black people are imprisoned more on average".

You can talk about populations if you want, but it's unfair to the individual to act like whatever traits are more common to their population apply to them. That goes triple for traits that are inborn.

You don't need to be a racist to know to lock your car in some neighborhoods. Generalities are not a good way to judge an individual, but they're also true. Black Americans commit a disproportionate share of violent crime. White people are disproportionately likely to be able to discriminate in harmful ways against others.







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@ ratbarf: I think you're making two major errors.

1) you assume that rights, equality, and opportunity are part of a zero sum system. If you can drastically improve one groups life while marginally, if at all, hurting another groups, isn't that a good call for a society? To use your example, I think that after you father stole another father's lunch money, his son has a claim against you. If what you hold was gained through improper means, you could lose it.

2) You assume that all discrimination is the same. Virtually all white folk in this country were the gutter trash in the homeland, they came here to avoid oppression. We as white folk, even white folk whose ancestors arrived long after the indian wars or slavery or even jim crow, benefit from the system of white privilege. So, yes, every white person in inherently better off than every non-white. It's called unjust enrichment, and justice demands that damages be paid.

"I never said they shouldn't fight it. By all means work your way up that societal ladder. Just don't expect any helping hands along the way. As for the acceptability of killing people, wake up dude. Acceptability has nothing to do with whether or why someone kills another person. Acceptability itself is simply a set of arbitrary guidlines set down by a bunch of people in an attempt to create what they think is an ideal way of acting in their ideal society."

No, the LAW has nothing to do with killing another person.
Social norms do affect things. Hence why lynchings and vigilantism are largely things of the past. They are no longer acceptable to most of the population, so regardless of the laws in question, they become less common.

As to the Irish and Welsh, neither group was ever enslaved. Both were wronged, but discrimination against either group is essentially nonexistent. I've never been made fun of for my Welsh name, and there are no more signs in the UK that say "No Irish."

You honestly cannot compare either to the slavery and oppression suffered by other groups.

Mad Rabbit wrote:As to the Irish and Welsh, neither group was ever enslaved.

The Romans Disagree with you, or are you saying that's acceptable because it was of a lesser scale/longer ago?

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Also, saying "a white person is more powerful than a black person because white people have more money on average" is as flawed as saying "a black person is more dangerous than a white person because black people are imprisoned more on average".

Mad Rabbit wrote:
You honestly cannot compare either to the slavery and oppression suffered by other groups.

You can, I think. What you can't do, as I pointed out above, is conflate being owed a debt by one group (say the Irish from the English) while also holding a debt to a different group (Irish to black). All white people are better off because of slavery. There is an ascertainable class from which to demand compensation. Who do Irish-Americans go to? Ireland? North Ireland? England?

there is also a background noise sort of leveling. At some point, every group gets screwed, and so things even out. White Americans are still riding pretty high.

Polonius wrote:You don't need to be a racist to know to lock your car in some neighborhoods. Generalities are not a good way to judge an individual, but they're also true. Black Americans commit a disproportionate share of violent crime. White people are disproportionately likely to be able to discriminate in harmful ways against others.

I guess the line gets drawn where you start to get on the toes of others.

Locking your door isn't causing anyone problems.

Also, there's obviously a point where you can say "feth prejudice". If someone comes into a bank with a ski mask and a gun, no one's going to try and find out if they're really a criminal. (That doesn't apply to race so much though, as there aren't any races of super-cannibals wandering our streets.)

Gwar! wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:As to the Irish and Welsh, neither group was ever enslaved.

The Romans Disagree with you, or are you saying that's acceptable because it was of a lesser scale/longer ago?

Ok. I will amend my statement. "Neither group was ever enslaved by the English, nor were they subjected to generations of forced labor and systematic discrimination on a scale with what is being discussed."

Then again, no one discriminates against the Welsh or the Irish because they were slaves. People discriminate against African Americans because they were slaves.

Mad Rabbit wrote:Then again, no one discriminates against the Welsh or the Irish because they were slaves. People discriminate against African Americans because they were slaves.

No, people discriminate against them because of an irrational hatred for Melanin.