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sebster wrote:

Did the oppression against the Christians produce racist notions in society that are still present today?

This would be prejudice, and not racism.

I agree with this post, it is just that many people hold much higher hopes for Obama than any other previous president. (aka Bush)

They are hoping for something different. Mabye america needs a change. Not just a clour change, but a policy change as well.

Polonius wrote:

whatwhat wrote:How can you even compare the british rule of ireland to the black holocaust. Paddy gave just as bad as he got given. Hell, before then even the entire north west coast of england used to be rife with irish slave raids.

Polonius wrote:I'm half polish, quarter German, and quarter scotch-irish.

Oh wow. did I ever tell you I was a sixth billionth Ethiopian? ...honestly what is it with you americans and the quarter-this, quarter-that. Anyone would think you wern't proud to be american, and that's like a crime in your country right?

Maybe it's a uniquely American fixation then. We like know our geneologies and stuff.

Certainly British people don't go around calling themselves Italian-British, or Somali-British or French-British. There has been plenty of immigration into Britain and plenty of emigration as well. The UK already had a fairly well established national and international identity before the USA was even begun. (Jacobites would argue with me, I'm sure.) Maybe that affects things.

Kilkrazy wrote:Certainly British people don't go around calling themselves Italian-British, or Somali-British or French-British. There has been plenty of immigration into Britain and plenty of emigration as well. The UK already had a fairly well established national and international identity before the USA was even begun. (Jacobites would argue with me, I'm sure.) Maybe that affects things.

QFT. I am Italian/English/Russian, I just call myself Italian, and let people gawk as I speak in Queens English.

Lordhat wrote:Did the oppression against the Christians produce racist notions in society that are still present today?

This would be prejudice, and not racism.

Are the leaders in the African American community racist for voting for, and pushing other african americans to vote for Obama?

? Are they voting for an African president or an American?

And don't say both.

Anyway, we have yet to see if this presidents only difference to others is any further than skin colour. We may have unwillingly voted in a black Nixon/Bush. Honestly, I think it is good that the leader of the country is different from the past, but I would like to more change than just appearance. It is too early to tell at this rate.

Actually, with religion there have been continuing dislikes. I mean, if I say a priest molested a boy they are more likely to believe he was catholic than any other form of christianity, the KKK hates catholics, and many people still have rascist notions towards the irish, germans, arabs, jews, and philipinos. It just depends on where you are.

All this hoo ha reminds me of an interesting debate I attended once at college a few years back. It went something like this. I'm probably paraphrasing slightly, but I'm putting down the gist of it.

Black Girl: *blah blah, generic oppression of black people , social inequalities, British wealth gained at slaves expense, etc*
Me: *Nods*
Black Girl: 'And that's why many black people and African countries not only want an apology from the British Government and people for it's past actions, but we feel that suitable reparations should be made. For example, in the same way national treasures looted worldwide by the British Empire are returned to their rightful museums, we feel that the wealth gained by the enslavement of our ancestors should be given to us and other African nations.
Me: Woah, hang on a minute. Just rewind a little way there. Something about an apology from the British. Why should I apologise for something that happened 300 years ago? I didn't do it.
Black Girl: Okay, maybe not you personally, but the British Government existed back then. Therefore they shoudl make an apology.
Me: Why?
Black Girl: What do you mean 'why?'
Me: Well, what's the point of issuing an apology for soemthing that happened 300 years ago? I didn't do it, and neither did anyone else in the government. So, I mean, what's it actually going to achieve?
Black Girl: Its symbolic.
Me: Symbolic of what? If the British government started issuing apologies for everything bad it had ever done, we'd be starting with apologising to France for wars we'd had with them 700 years ago.
And I don't really see the point. Okay. Let's move on to the reparations thing. Why should the British taxpayer fork over even more money to African countries, when we already donate millions in aid?
Ignoring the fact it happened 300 years ago, and the British taxpayer shouldn't have to pay for things their ancestors did.
Black Girl: To show how they're truly sorry about slavery.
Me: And exactly why should you get any?
Black Girl: Because my ancestors were slaves. And because it helps black people, who start out far more disadvantaged in life then white people like you.
Me: Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're both at the same college? Please enlighten me as to how you have a worse chance at life then me.
Black Girl: *Growing angry* Well, you just can't understand our pain!
Me: I'm Jewish.
Black Girl: What?
Me: Technically, by your reasoning, I should currently be demanding compensation from the Egyptian Government. And the German one. Come to think of it, most of the ones in Europe actually. Not only that, you guys are new hat compared to us. I mean, 300 years? We have 3000 years! I think I should be ahead of the queue here. The Jews should be compensated before you guys even get a look in!
Black Girl: That's not the same thing!
Me: Really? Please tell me why you guys should get cash for past enslavement, whilst Jews shouldn't?

It went on in this vein for a while. I think that it pretty much sums up my view on the whole reparations issue though.

Ketara, there is no historical evidence of Jew in Egypt at any point. You're going on the Bible there, which isn't a source I would necessary accept as scientific, regardless of your beliefs.
I think apologies are definitely in order and I know that Germany has issued an apology, just like the U.S. apologized for slavery last week. It doesn't cost anything and it's the right thing to do.
Reparations is a bit much. Oppressed minorities should be given help to get them better education and such so that they can become an equal group. A check doesn't solve anything.

Except of course they found ancient hebrew carved ito mine sites in Egypt, ancient Egyptian words fund in the Bible, and there are hieroglpyhics with a short note about them being permitted to leave. But other than that you are completely correct.

Mad Rabbit wrote:Oppressed minorities should be given help to get them better education and such so that they can become an equal group. A check doesn't solve anything.

Is this "oppressed minority" the poor?

Because it's poor people who have trouble paying for college. On account of not having enough money.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Mad Rabbit wrote:Oppressed minorities should be given help to get them better education and such so that they can become an equal group. A check doesn't solve anything.

Is this "oppressed minority" the poor?

Because it's poor people who have trouble paying for college. On account of not having enough money.

Dunno exactly what you want me to say here. I was saying groups who have been discriminated against in the past specifically (African Americans, Native Americans)

[heresy]Then again, as a socialist I think college should be paid for by the government [/heresy]


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:Except of course they found ancient hebrew carved ito mine sites in Egypt, ancient Egyptian words fund in the Bible, and there are hieroglpyhics with a short note about them being permitted to leave. But other than that you are completely correct.

"In the Elephantine papyri, caches of legal documents and letters written in Aramaic amply document the lives of a community of Jewish soldiers stationed in there as part of a frontier garrison in Egypt for the Achaemenid Empire. Established at Elephantine in about 650 BC during Manasseh's reign, these soldiers assisted Pharaoh Psammetichus I in his Nubian campaign."

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Egypt)

Haven't been able to find anything else.

The United States Congress just apologized for Slavery last week. Isn't that nice?

Okay, exclude the Egyptian reference specifically(pkus, we go by the Torah, not the Bible. You're mixing up religions there, neighbour). Jews have been discriminated against across the world throughout history. The point I was trying to get across is that other people are discriminated against too, but don't feel the need for apologies and stonking great piles of cash as reparations for things people did 200 years ago. So why is that girls case so different from mine that it deserves them?

EDIT:-And no, I don't accept an apology is necessary. Why? Because it's meaningless coming from the mouth of someone who did nothing. Okay, I'll apologise for slavery. But since I did none of those things, why stop there? I mean, I could apologise for Agincourt, the Serbian massacres, the Russian pogroms, and many other things which I also had nothing to do with!

I'm quite willing to offer up all these abject apologies, followed by much grovelling. They all had sod all to do with me, but hey! Why let that stand in the way of a pointless bit of rhetoric! The simple fact is, it accomplishes NOTHING! So sure, I'll sit here and say whatever they like, but at the end of the day, there's no value to these words, as I had nothing to do with the crimes I'm apologising for.

Frazzled wrote:Except of course they found ancient hebrew carved ito mine sites in Egypt, ancient Egyptian words fund in the Bible, and there are hieroglpyhics with a short note about them being permitted to leave. But other than that you are completely correct.

Got a link for the hieroglyphics with the note about them being permitted to leave? Because that's an extremely cool piece of archaeology I haven't heard of before.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:It went on in this vein for a while. I think that it pretty much sums up my view on the whole reparations issue though.

We had a big hoo ah about apologising the Australian aboriginals over the messed up things we did. When the new PM came in he apologised, and for short while some aboriginals and whole pile of white folk were really happy. Then things got back to how they were before among aboriginals, chronic alcoholism, declining life expectancy, vastly disproportionate imprisonment rates. Right now there's an inquest into an aboriginal fellow who was arrested for drink driving and transported half way across the desert in a paddy wagon with no air conditioning or insulation. He cooked to death.

But you know, we said we were sorry and wasn't that nice.

Mad Rabbit wrote:Dunno exactly what you want me to say here. I was saying groups who have been discriminated against in the past specifically (African Americans, Native Americans)

Why would it be hard to get into college because your race was discriminated against in the past?

The only reasons I can think of are (a) you're still actively discriminated against, which is unlikely considering how many colleges seek to increase their level of "diversity" through the inclusion of racial minorities, or (b) they're poor and come from families who were poor due to past discrimination, in which case it's the poverty that's relevant, not the race.

Ketara wrote:All this hoo ha reminds me of an interesting debate I attended once at college a few years back. It went something like this. I'm probably paraphrasing slightly, but I'm putting down the gist of it.

Black Girl: *blah blah, generic oppression of black people , social inequalities, British wealth gained at slaves expense, etc*
Me: *Nods*
Black Girl: 'And that's why many black people and African countries not only want an apology from the British Government and people for it's past actions, but we feel that suitable reparations should be made. For example, in the same way national treasures looted worldwide by the British Empire are returned to their rightful museums, we feel that the wealth gained by the enslavement of our ancestors should be given to us and other African nations.
Me: Woah, hang on a minute. Just rewind a little way there. Something about an apology from the British. Why should I apologise for something that happened 300 years ago? I didn't do it.
Black Girl: Okay, maybe not you personally, but the British Government existed back then. Therefore they shoudl make an apology.
Me: Why?
Black Girl: What do you mean 'why?'
Me: Well, what's the point of issuing an apology for soemthing that happened 300 years ago? I didn't do it, and neither did anyone else in the government. So, I mean, what's it actually going to achieve?
Black Girl: Its symbolic.
Me: Symbolic of what? If the British government started issuing apologies for everything bad it had ever done, we'd be starting with apologising to France for wars we'd had with them 700 years ago.
And I don't really see the point. Okay. Let's move on to the reparations thing. Why should the British taxpayer fork over even more money to African countries, when we already donate millions in aid?
Ignoring the fact it happened 300 years ago, and the British taxpayer shouldn't have to pay for things their ancestors did.
Black Girl: To show how they're truly sorry about slavery.
Me: And exactly why should you get any?
Black Girl: Because my ancestors were slaves. And because it helps black people, who start out far more disadvantaged in life then white people like you.
Me: Correct me if I'm wrong, but we're both at the same college? Please enlighten me as to how you have a worse chance at life then me.
Black Girl: *Growing angry* Well, you just can't understand our pain!
Me: I'm Jewish.
Black Girl: What?
Me: Technically, by your reasoning, I should currently be demanding compensation from the Egyptian Government. And the German one. Come to think of it, most of the ones in Europe actually. Not only that, you guys are new hat compared to us. I mean, 300 years? We have 3000 years! I think I should be ahead of the queue here. The Jews should be compensated before you guys even get a look in!
Black Girl: That's not the same thing!
Me: Really? Please tell me why you guys should get cash for past enslavement, whilst Jews shouldn't?

It went on in this vein for a while. I think that it pretty much sums up my view on the whole reparations issue though.

Of course Tony Blair did apologise for Britain's acts of slavery. OTOH it has to be noted that Britain was the major world force against slavery from the early 1800s onwards.

IF U DNT LYK OBANMA UR RACISY COS HES BL;ACK

sA

Ketara wrote:Okay, exclude the Egyptian reference specifically(pkus, we go by the Torah, not the Bible. You're mixing up religions there, neighbour). Jews have been discriminated against across the world throughout history. The point I was trying to get across is that other people are discriminated against too, but don't feel the need for apologies and stonking great piles of cash as reparations for things people did 200 years ago. So why is that girls case so different from mine that it deserves them?

EDIT:-And no, I don't accept an apology is necessary. Why? Because it's meaningless coming from the mouth of someone who did nothing. Okay, I'll apologise for slavery. But since I did none of those things, why stop there? I mean, I could apologise for Agincourt, the Serbian massacres, the Russian pogroms, and many other things which I also had nothing to do with!

I'm quite willing to offer up all these abject apologies, followed by much grovelling. They all had sod all to do with me, but hey! Why let that stand in the way of a pointless bit of rhetoric! The simple fact is, it accomplishes NOTHING! So sure, I'll sit here and say whatever they like, but at the end of the day, there's no value to these words, as I had nothing to do with the crimes I'm apologising for.

hey keep your mouth shut. I actually want my holocaust compensation money.

In all seriousness though, your point is kind of flawed. I mean just because these things happened so long ago doesn't mean people today don't suffer because of it. For example many of the people who instigated the creation of Israel aren't alive today but Palestinians who were living there before someone came and just took their land from them are still affected by what they did. The israeli government cant just say: "well it wasn't our generation, why should we do anything."

And also the oppression of black people didn't happen all that long ago. In America black people didn't receive fair rights untill the end of the sixties, and nobody can claim that isn't partly responsible for the majority of black americans being working class. So really we're not talking about something which happened "200 years ago."

Wasn't Israel created at the instigation of Russia and France? As I recall, England had created a document(the name of which escapes me) pre war that outlined the creation of a Jewish homeland, but had no intention on following through with it post war, until France and Russia and Russia pressured for it, mainly to irritate the British(and because no-one quite knew what to dow ith all the jews sitting in camps in Syria). Although whether you can draw an analogy between the creation of a nation, and an apology/compensation for an event that occurred 200 years ago is debatable.

And I am talking about something that happened 200 years ago. Remember, whatwhat, you and I are currently sitting in England, which abolished slavery in 1834. If the Americans didn't get round to it till later on, that's their affair, but I was referring to my experiences and opinion on the topic at hand and its relation to England. Not America.

I like tapioca pudding, does that make me racist?


GG

Ketara wrote:Wasn't Israel created at the instigation of Russia and France? As I recall, England had created a document(the name of which escapes me) pre war that outlined the creation of a Jewish homeland, but had no intention on following through with it post war, until France and Russia and Russia pressured for it, mainly to irritate the British(and because no-one quite knew what to down with all the jews sitting in camps in Syria). Although whether you can draw an analogy between the creation of a nation, and an apology/compensation for an event that occurred 200 years ago is debatable.

It was. My point was that actions taken 300 (200, 500, however many) years ago still have repercussions today and the people who are still benefiting from the actions done by their ancestors at the behest of other people need to bear some responsibility, especially when those people are still suffering because of it.

I like tapioca pudding, does that make me racist?

yes, yes it does.

generalgrog wrote:I like tapioca pudding, does that make me racist?


GG

Omg you Racist . How could you be so insensitive!

My family has never owned a slave, my moms side came from germany and lived in wisconsin while my dad's side came from canada. Members on both sides fought and died for the union army, seeing as though the union was the side fighting to rid the country of slavery and the republicans were in office under lincoln I do believe that reparations and apologies have already been made.

Also, the current government is the union government so the current government is the government that fought to rid the nation of slaves.

As a republican from the north with ancestors who died fighting for emancipation, I demand mandatory thank you's from any african american in theis nation.

OK, now that I was able to get my pudding joke in. (I can't believe you guys actually argued about pudding..LOL)

I live in a mountainous region of South West, Virginia. You might describe it as hillbilly country or hicksville, whatever. I was transfered here from Orlando, Florida, where I lived over 30 years. Which happens to be a very metropolitan area of the country. You have whites, blacks-african americans, many hispanics-mainly puerto ricans and Mexicans, many caribean naionalities, including Hatians, Jamacains, etc. not to mention all the yankees that move to Florida that we can't get rid of, and we have to listen to their incessant whining about the hot weather.

Anyway I digress, going from a metropolitan area to an area where I am now, really showed me how "backward" people in America can be. One of the first things I was asked when I arrived was, "I heard there were a lot of blacks in Florida?". When I was in western North Carloina, also mountanous hillbilly country, I was sitting at a table when one of the people I was dining with made a comment about a black person that was eating in the same room as us. "they usaully run them(meaning black people) out of here". That incident was around 1998.

During this last election (I voted Mcain by the way), I was very surprised by the amount of vitriol spewed out by my co workers against Obama. It's my opinion that most of that spewage was due to the fact that Obama happened to be black. It really opened my eyes as to how subtle racism can be. And I was able to instantaneously see how we as Americans tolerated the jim crow laws and the black codes.

Of course not liking Obama doesn't automatically make you a racist. I don't like him, I'm white, married to an east indian woman and attend a primarly black Church. But after this last election I saw more racism than I ever care to see again.

GG

I kind of agree with ketara on this one. Here in Australia we apologised for the'lost generations' when the Aus gov took the aborigine children away from thier familes and but them in boarding school compounds. (Watch Rabbit Proof Fence)
There is a difference though, this happened 50 years ago and a lot of the victims/perpetrators are still around.

But when it comes to reparations I think australia does the right thing. We don't hand out one big check (what would they spend it on?) we make it as easy a possible for them to get education and grants etc. (but more could be done)

whatwhat wrote:It was. My point was that actions taken 300 (200, 500, however many) years ago still have repercussions today and the people who are still benefiting from the actions done by their ancestors at the behest of other people need to bear some responsibility, especially when those people are still suffering because of it.

How do you plan to trace every benefit a person has had in life to something immoral done in their past?

"Oh, I'm sorry Dave, your great great grandfather was an escaped criminal! You never should have been born, I'm afraid I'll have to rectify that..."

Seriously though, it doesn't even work for wealth. Will people have money taken from them because their parent was a thief or drug dealer? How will you track down and tax the wealth that came from slave ownership? And determine how much of that wealth would have reached the slave's living ancestors? You can't.

Besides, it's on bad legal ground, since slavery wasn't illegal at the time the wealth was generated, thus making the payment of damages for it ex post facto.

Ketara wrote:

EDIT:-And no, I don't accept an apology is necessary. Why? Because it's meaningless coming from the mouth of someone who did nothing. Okay, I'll apologise for slavery. But since I did none of those things, why stop there? I mean, I could apologise for Agincourt, the Serbian massacres, the Russian pogroms, and many other things which I also had nothing to do with!

I'm quite willing to offer up all these abject apologies, followed by much grovelling. They all had sod all to do with me, but hey! Why let that stand in the way of a pointless bit of rhetoric! The simple fact is, it accomplishes NOTHING! So sure, I'll sit here and say whatever they like, but at the end of the day, there's no value to these words, as I had nothing to do with the crimes I'm apologising for.

While we're at it, I'd like to apologize for Pompeii, and Atlantis!