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This issue has existed since... forever.

Land Raiders and Ork Battlewagons are both models that cannot move on (without turning sideways and doing the crab crawl) 6" without part of their hull/chassis hanging over the table edge.

There is no rule for it, because everybody has always just played it "the way it's meant to be played" (whatever that is supposed to mean) which in this case means letting your opponent do it without being a cock.

Envy89 wrote:and we arnt talking about models that are starting off the table, that is fine... we are talking about models that are ON the table but want to MOVE part of it OFF the table.... the guy wants to keep the base of the skimmer on the table, but finish his movment with the ass end of the tank hanging OFF the table...

Where the hell did you read that I want to move OFF the table once I'm on it? I specifically said, and I quote: "...on the turn it comes in is a big influence on whether or not I want to buy any. Does the base need to move onto the table when outflanking..." Outflanking = coming in from reserve.

Stop putting words in my mouth and stop with this dragon Russ bull. You know why you can't mount a Russ on a dragon? Because a Russ doesn't have a base, and even if it did, that wouldn't be the base that GW supplies you with. The bases that come with skimmers aren't just for pretty decoration. Tournaments take them into account and they're standardized. Stop making crap up.

<edit> Drama and confrontation is fun. But honestly, I enjoy arguments.

I suspect that in most cases you would be able to get the valkyrie on the board sideways and still be able to draw RLOS to whatever target you want. Just consider; The range of locations up and down any board edge along with the 48" range of the lascannons. There should be little problem getting your target in the front firing arc.

The first issue is whether or not moving a model from off the table but having the model remain partially off of the table at the end of it's move counts as moving off of the table.

The second issue is whether you measure the model from any part of the model, or from the hull of the model, for the purposes of movement.

I would just like to point out that if it is deemed 'legal' to leave models that have the capability of moving on fully hanging off table so you can fire more guns, expect your opponent to consider it 'legal' to deploy his land raider sideways at the deployment line, with the gun sponsons hanging over the line.

We know that isn't legal though. If you are told your model may not be somewhere, that means no part of the model may be there.

Kaaihn wrote:
Q. Can models move off the table?
A. Not unless a rule or the mission being played
clearly specify that they can. All good wargamers
know that the edge of the table is the end of the
world!

If you are told your model may not be somewhere, that means no part of the model may be there.

I don't see how this faq addresses the issue. Its says that models may not move off the table. It doesn't give any indication how fast you have to move on the table nor does it say you can't be off the table which you seem to be implying in the above quote.

I don't see how going from 100% not on the table to 50% on the table could be considered moving off the table.

I think this is just a blind spot in the rules that players need to address before the game.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The edge of the world comment is meant to be funny, but even if you take it seriously it does not imply you can't hang off the edge of the world. It only says you can't move off the table and it seems to me that in this case that we are moving on to the table.

If the base is on the table and the hull is not over hanging the edge, then there is no advantage as all measurements are done by the hull and base.

Flexen wrote:If the base is on the table and the hull is not over hanging the edge, then there is no advantage as all measurements are done by the hull and base.

Right, but we are addressing the case where the base is on the table and the hull is not.

Well the majority of the hull is. Depends on if you count Vendetta tails as "hull" or not.

Gwar! wrote:

Envy89 wrote:so no, a model can not "hang off" the edge of the board just because it doesn't say you cant do it....

Show me where it says you must be on the table at all times? Not implied, but ecplicitly stated.

As it is, there is nothing for or against it.

Show me where it says I can't bash your models with a hammer and say that I won?
With that over with, I have a question. If I have, lets say.... A wraithlord, and the legs are stuck glued to the base with the body but afterward the glue connecting the legs and body broke but because the legs are stuck in place, the body can duck back, can I put him straight when firing and then duck him to remove enemy LOS. My friend says you can but I say you can't.



-Orkishly

About the closest thing to a rule I can see is pg 81 RESERVES: "When available, reserves move on from the player's deployment zone board edge" There are no written exceptions that I saw, so if a vehicle can move on to the table, I do not see how one can justify not using at least the minimal vehicle movement allowance to get on the table. A Valkryie/Vendetta is approximately 9"x11", I do not see how a vendetta will ever be allowed to fire all 3 lascannons when it moves on from reserves.

The tail/wings of a valkryie are undoubtably not extraneous and therefore ARE part of the hull of the vehicle.

Show me where it says I can't bash your models with a hammer and say that I won?
With that over with, I have a question. If I have, lets say.... A wraithlord, and the legs are stuck glued to the base with the body but afterward the glue connecting the legs and body broke but because the legs are stuck in place, the body can duck back, can I put him straight when firing and then duck him to remove enemy LOS. My friend says you can but I say you can't.


-Orkishly

I'm pretty sure that there's a rule that says you can't bash my models with a hammer, it's the 'destruction of private property' rule or something. They might have made that one a law, even. Your example asks a different question, really...that sounds more like "I have modeled this wraithlord for a specific advantage to deny LOS to an opponent" and your friend is a cheatin' git for it. What if you wanted to leave more than the [shake your] tailfeather off the board? What if you just wanted to poke 1" of your valk on the table and fire all your lasers (after they've been charged, of course), would that be allowed?

Gwar! wrote:

Envy89 wrote:and no, i dont think you can mount a russ on a flying dragon.

Yes, you can, I just have to Ok it. No-one will OK a Dragon Russ, nor will they let you model for advantage.

I would love to see a Dragon Russ...

I am going to make a Dragon-russ for my Genestealer Cult.

Kaaihn wrote:There is a faq that covers it. Can models move off the table? No, they can't. If part of your model is over the edge, that model has moved off table, which is not allowed.

When you are given a boundary, you are not allowed to move any part of the model outside of it. This is why you cannot deploy with any part of a model, even just a gun, sticking over your deployment line.

...Except that if taking this line 100% literally, then Reserves can only enter by Deep Strike and Dawn Of War is actually complete bollocks.

We have no GW ruling on this issue. What we do have are guidelines suggesting you can't, and photographs by GW staff that show skimmers partially off-board. Let's not pretend there's a definitive answer, k?

There are three issues at work here.

1) Moving off of the table.
The FAQ is clear, once on the table, you cannot move off of the table. If you decide to ignore the FAQs, then no wonder you find lots of grey issues.

2)Moving onto the table from reserves.
The rules say you must move onto the table. The rules do *not* say you must move 'fully' on, nor 'all the way' on. So moving the valkarie, landraider, baneblade, etc 6" and stopping is perfectly legal.


3) defining what is considered 'off' the table.
Meaning, if the Valk started on the table, how close to the edge can it get and not be-at all-off the table.
If the base is hanging over, is that off the table?
If the hull is hanging over, is that off the table?
If the wings are hanging over, is that off the table?

My initial reaction is Yes, Yes, Not sure...

I think it should be consistent with starting deployment. How do you deploy? Do you play you can have a wing hanging over the deployment line?

.

orkishlyorkish wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Envy89 wrote:so no, a model can not "hang off" the edge of the board just because it doesn't say you cant do it....

Show me where it says you must be on the table at all times? Not implied, but ecplicitly stated.

As it is, there is nothing for or against it.

Show me where it says I can't bash your models with a hammer and say that I won?
With that over with, I have a question. If I have, lets say.... A wraithlord, and the legs are stuck glued to the base with the body but afterward the glue connecting the legs and body broke but because the legs are stuck in place, the body can duck back, can I put him straight when firing and then duck him to remove enemy LOS. My friend says you can but I say you can't.



-Orkishly

Your Nation's Laws always trump your codex, so you are not allowed to bash models. The judge at your court hearing can quote the page number.

Your argument is based on one person getting an advantage by modeling and manipulating to an extreme. I would suggest a Valkyrie moving on the table in a legal move with a tail hanging over is hardly a massive advantage (and it goes with the fluff as flyers / skimmers come out of no where to attack). These arguments sound like some sort massive exploit is taking place.

Elessar wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:There is a faq that covers it. Can models move off the table? No, they can't. If part of your model is over the edge, that model has moved off table, which is not allowed.

When you are given a boundary, you are not allowed to move any part of the model outside of it. This is why you cannot deploy with any part of a model, even just a gun, sticking over your deployment line.

...Except that if taking this line 100% literally, then Reserves can only enter by Deep Strike and Dawn Of War is actually complete bollocks.

We have no GW ruling on this issue. What we do have are guidelines suggesting you can't, and photographs by GW staff that show skimmers partially off-board. Let's not pretend there's a definitive answer, k?

I have no idea how you get to reserves only coming from deep strike and DoW not working at all from any of my posts. Your going to have to explain that out more.

When given a boundary, you can't put any part of the model outside it. Reserves do not go against that, and DoW does not either. Move your models fully on the board. Use a house rule for models such as the Monolith or Baneblade that are actually incapable of it. Your just hunting for easter eggs to say you can hang your Valkyries tail over the edge of the table, but not the edge of your deployment zone. Change your tactics if having all three lascannons firing the turn it comes on is critical to you.

If GW rules that it is ok to not deploy fully onto the board when you are capable of it, then that's fine. Until then I will go with what I see as the current definitive answer.

Why will you allow house rules for Baneblades but not Land Raiders? Smacks of "Want Cake and Eat it" Syndrome.

Gwar! wrote:Why will you allow house rules for Baneblades but not Land Raiders? Smacks of "Want Cake and Eat it" Syndrome.

Not at all. The RAW is broken for a Baneblade, but not a Land Raider. A Land Raider is fully capable of moving its entire model on the table. A Baneblade (if I am using the correct example) is not.

Land Raiders can move up to 12", putting itself fully on the board.
A super heavy tank such as a Baneblade can only move up to 6", leaving it no choice but to be partially off the table. House rule to allow it to be partially off, or alternatively to have some extra movement to get fully on on the first turn.

Remember, the original question was: Can I leave my vehicle hanging off the table when I have the ability not to, just so I can shoot more guns on the turn it enters the game?

Kaaihn wrote:

Elessar wrote:

Kaaihn wrote:There is a faq that covers it. Can models move off the table? No, they can't. If part of your model is over the edge, that model has moved off table, which is not allowed.

When you are given a boundary, you are not allowed to move any part of the model outside of it. This is why you cannot deploy with any part of a model, even just a gun, sticking over your deployment line.

...Except that if taking this line 100% literally, then Reserves can only enter by Deep Strike and Dawn Of War is actually complete bollocks.

We have no GW ruling on this issue. What we do have are guidelines suggesting you can't, and photographs by GW staff that show skimmers partially off-board. Let's not pretend there's a definitive answer, k?

I have no idea how you get to reserves only coming from deep strike and DoW not working at all from any of my posts. Your going to have to explain that out more.

When given a boundary, you can't put any part of the model outside it. Reserves do not go against that, and DoW does not either. Move your models fully on the board. Use a house rule for models such as the Monolith or Baneblade that are actually incapable of it. Your just hunting for easter eggs to say you can hang your Valkyries tail over the edge of the table, but not the edge of your deployment zone. Change your tactics if having all three lascannons firing the turn it comes on is critical to you.

If GW rules that it is ok to not deploy fully onto the board when you are capable of it, then that's fine. Until then I will go with what I see as the current definitive answer.

If the edge of the table is fully impassable, then you can't cross it to leave the table. Only half of that statement is correct - if it were FULLY impassable, then you couldn't enter either. Boundaries cannot be crossed, not cannot be selectively crossed - this is what you are arguing, yet the Reserves and DoW deployment rules countermand this claim, IMO.

Elessar wrote:If the edge of the table is fully impassable, then you can't cross it to leave the table. Only half of that statement is correct - if it were FULLY impassable, then you couldn't enter either. Boundaries cannot be crossed, not cannot be selectively crossed - this is what you are arguing, yet the Reserves and DoW deployment rules countermand this claim, IMO.

It isn't impassable, I never said it was. Your making up stuff and attributing it to me. Now I understand why you are confused.

Impassable is a type of terrain. The edge of the table is it's own thing. You may enter on from that edge, but you may never move off it voluntarily. I see moving your model partially off the edge, no matter the direction, as moving off voluntarily. You can't do that. There is no conflict with reserves or DoW.

In the same way that you can't move a model to the table edge and then rotate so that you are partially off table, you cannot move so that part of your model ends off table.

End your move fully on the table if you are capable of it.

You can't say that it's a boundary, but that it only works one way. Simple.

You can when the rules tell you that is exactly what it is. You may move on from off table, but you may not move off table from on. That is exactly a one way boundary.

The original question is whether you may move partially on from off the table to gain an advantage (shooting more guns). No, you cannot, as you cannot move off the table.

You can't only move partially on for the same reason you cannot do an on table move that stops at the table edge, then rotates so you are hanging off the table. Also the same reason you cannot have any part of your model hanging over the deployment zone line, which includes your guns, not just your hull.

What is missing in the RAW and FAQ is what to do for a model greater than six inches long that cannot move more than 6" on it's turn. That is a situation you need to house rule. The others can work just fine with the existing rules. House rule it with friends if you want to allow it, but don't assume you are entitled to it.

Sazzlefrats wrote:About the closest thing to a rule I can see is pg 81 RESERVES: "When available, reserves move on from the player's deployment zone board edge" There are no written exceptions that I saw, so if a vehicle can move on to the table, I do not see how one can justify not using at least the minimal vehicle movement allowance to get on the table. A Valkryie/Vendetta is approximately 9"x11", I do not see how a vendetta will ever be allowed to fire all 3 lascannons when it moves on from reserves.

The tail/wings of a valkryie are undoubtably not extraneous and therefore ARE part of the hull of the vehicle.

Huh?
Who cares how much it can fire? My biovores cannot fire when they move on the table either.

It is possible for the relevent vehicles to move entirely on the table via normal rules, and you think that this quote is a reason to say vehicles can fire too?

I think the word is "wut?"

sorry to interrupt again.

Kaaihn, there are a few issues with your assertions

Move your models fully on the board.

The rules do *not* state this. At no point does it state you must move fully onto the board. It says you must move on the board, not fully on the board.
Thus, moving partially on the board will satisfy the rule.

it is true, once fully on the board, you can't move off of it, but that is not the case here.

When coming on from reserves, you start off the table, you are moving onto the board. Is that movement legal?
If so, there is nothing stating you must continue it until *fully* on the board.

And remember, the rule says you can't move off of the board, it doesn't limit that to ending off the board. That means if you try using that rule for those entering from reserves, they can't move at all, ever.

coredump wrote:Kaaihn, there are a few issues with your assertions

Move your models fully on the board.

The rules do *not* state this. At no point does it state you must move fully onto the board. It says you must move on the board, not fully on the board.
Thus, moving partially on the board will satisfy the rule.

it is true, once fully on the board, you can't move off of it, but that is not the case here.

When coming on from reserves, you start off the table, you are moving onto the board. Is that movement legal?
If so, there is nothing stating you must continue it until *fully* on the board.

And remember, the rule says you can't move off of the board, it doesn't limit that to ending off the board. That means if you try using that rule for those entering from reserves, they can't move at all, ever.

The rule for deployment does not state that you must place your model "fully" in your deployment zone either. Are you saying that you can park your land raider sideways at the deployment line with its weapons hanging over? Or half its hull? You can't, because deployment says your model must be in your deployment zone. That is inclusive. All of the model must be in your deployment zone.

Moving on to the table from reserves says you move your model onto the table. Model is inclusive, the whole thing must be moved on the table the same as the whole thing must be in your deployment zone when you deploy.

As to the reserves moving on, you apply the specific reserves moving on over the general no moving off table anyway, so that is not a valid example. This movement is legal because the special movement of reserves rules makes it legal.

Deployment and reserves use the same language and behavior of the word model. Model is inclusive in both of those. If you are arguing that model is not inclusive, and therefore you satisfy the requirements as long as you are partially where you are told to move your model, then this deployment in this awesomely photoshopped picture would be legal.

But we all know it isn't, the same as only moving partially on the table isn't.

coredump wrote:Kaaihn, there are a few issues with your assertions

Move your models fully on the board.

The rules do *not* state this. At no point does it state you must move fully onto the board. It says you must move on the board, not fully on the board.
Thus, moving partially on the board will satisfy the rule.

it is true, once fully on the board, you can't move off of it, but that is not the case here.

When coming on from reserves, you start off the table, you are moving onto the board. Is that movement legal?
If so, there is nothing stating you must continue it until *fully* on the board.

And remember, the rule says you can't move off of the board, it doesn't limit that to ending off the board. That means if you try using that rule for those entering from reserves, they can't move at all, ever.

Coredump: It's implied, but you are certaintly correct, there is nothing in the book that actually states models must move "full" on "to the board" from reserves

pg 88. "Standard missions are deigned to be played on a 6'x4' gaming surface"

Not around, or near, or hanging off the surface.

That said, I am actually starting to think it may be allowed to deploy the landraider like that.

And 100% because of the argument that it should NOT be allowed. Page 3 actually seems to assert that it's ok.

I miss a lot though.

shrug