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attrition murders them. giving them more attacks, wounds, and a higher initiative for an assault squad would fix them.

I see a lot of people talking about reducing the points costs for GK.

I would politely suggest that instead, GW should increase their awesome-ness up to the points value.


I personally like the idea (and the struggle) that GK field very few models because of high costs. The main thing to me is that these need to be better than the currently are to make them more competitive.


I like the idea above re: the Shrouding just becoming stealth, as well as the Improved Teleport rule and the fact that all PAGK can Deepstrike.

I don't think FNP is the answer, but a second wound might be.

Im with you DFK! feel no pain wouldnt be good its nice but I would say two wounds would be more appropriate. The rest of the stuff just really needs to be brought in line with 5th addition. Enough said there. Now I realize this is about GK but why also expand to the inquisitorial stormtroopers. If they developed that further instead of them just being a troops choice with transports maybe include some more imperial armour into the codex. That way its just a blend of the SM and IG and then they could get ride of the allies rule all togeather.

I apologize if this is not totally on point with they rest of the thred but I haven't the time to read the whole thing right now.

I'm all for just making them more badass with the same point values, even the justicar, but he'd better be f$^#ing awesome to make him worth 50 points.


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like, kill a terminator good, since he's more expensive than one.

Let them take transports of some kind. The shrouding is cool and all, but not quite cool enough.

Update all their wargear. All of it.

Daemon: Any Monstrous Creature, Unit with the "Daemon" Special rule, Any vehicle with Daemonic Posession, any unit with a mark of Icon of chaos.

Ways to improve the Grey Knights/ Daemonhunters:

* Make GK Land Raiders/ Crusaders dedicated transport choices in the same way as the BTs have (Land Raiders would be better), unless it requires the removal of The Shrouding. I can't imagine why it would, but if it does then leave things as they are.

* Give PAGKs Frag Grenades as standard wargear.

* Reduce the cost of the Justicar. Why is he worth 2 PAGKs? 40pts for a model with his gear seems fair.

* A mid-range HQ with 2 wounds would be nice. Currently we have to choose between the Uber-Librarian or a squad leader.

* Once and for all clarify how the GM's NFW works in relation to Eternal Warrior. If it's insta-jib ignores Eternal Warrior, coo'. If not, decrease his points cost by 15-20.

* Clarify all the other stupid 3rd Ed Codex-creep bollocks that plagues them. The +1 Attack Storm Shields fiasco, old-school Assault Cannons, the list of what counts as a Daemon for the purposes of using psychic powers, Teleport Homers and all other stupid 3rd Ed wargear that doesn't work anymore, etc etc.

* Either make the Inquisitorial units useful in some way or scrap them altogether. As it stands only the Mystics are worth considering; all other Henchmen, Assassins, and Daemonhosts are poo.

* Melta or AP1 weaponry. Don't care how you do it, just get some in there.

hmm.... this is a little OT (ironic, since this is my topic) what about making vindicare weapons AP1 and letting them ride with the GK without an inquisitor?

Sourclam and Frank Fugger both made good lists that covered most of the problems, so I´ll just add my supporting vote.

Frank Fugger wrote:
* Once and for all clarify how the GM's NFW works in relation to Eternal Warrior. If it's insta-jib ignores Eternal Warrior, coo'. If not, decrease his points cost by 15-20.

It kills them. The Nemesis Force Weapon does NOT cause Instant Death. It removes a model from play regardless of Wounds blah blah blah. It uses wording to skirt the issue.

The ONLY way to kill something with Instant Death is with a Strength of Weapon double the Target Toughness. The Force weapon usually does not do that. It simply kills them.

Odd wording, but NFW can insta-gib a anything with Eternal Warrior without an issue.

That's according to RaW; TOs and third-parties will take a different view on it depending what side of the bed they rolled out of. If they FAQed it so's the NFW insta-jibbed everything then TOs and staffers wouldn't have the power to stop their favourite models (or their favourite player's models) being insta-jibbed.

I said "clarify"; what I actually meant was make the RaW working official once and for all so's nobody can countermand it.

Initiative 5 would be absolutely amazing, I think that could make up their extra points right there. WS5 and S6 hitting at I5 would... wow.

GKGM should be WS6, at least, to put him on par with a SM Captain, if not WS7.

40pt Justicar sounds fair to me.

Transport upgrades, I probably put this in my earlier post. Its a nightmare to fit in transports and dreads, since they both take up Heavy Support.

Basically GK just need an updated codex, or a 5th edition FAQ with several tweaks.

drop podding in a dreadnought would be nice too.

yeah drops pods would be a very nice thing to have. I would also like to see the deads get moved to elites.

Honestly, at this point, I don't think we will see another Daemonhunter codex.

I don't think we'll see another witchunter one either.

I think we'll get an Inquisition codex, with both, and Sisters of battle, and the Mighty Greyknights will just be 2-4 entries within, its the treatment all flavorful and cool things are getting these days, Legion of the damned? You're now an elite choice in the marine codex. (for example)

You're looking at something like:

HQ: Greyknight Grandmaster
Elite: Greyknight Terminators,
Fast: PA Greyknights (if take grandmaster, you may take as troops, (ala bike captain in marine codex)
Heavy: Greyknight Dread

The good news is they'll make greyknights better IN that codex, probably with a base 4++ invuln save, and rending (GW's answer to balance lately, aw give em rending!)

the Bad news is we won't see one before 6th ed =/

If we're just talking about improving Grey Knights rather than the whole Codex...

* Drop the Allies rules, lump all of the Inquisitorial units (Assassins, Sisters, GKs, Inquisitors, whatever else) together into a combined Codex, and let people play them as a unique army. In the case of GKs the single most important factor in transforming them from a fringe army designed to be taken as Allies when Daemons are involved into a fully competetive force in their own right would be removing some of the stupid anti-Daemon bonuses they get and exchanging them for non-specific bonuses that help against all armies.

* Change The Shrouding. Make it work like the Wolf Priest's Stormcaller; a passive Cover Save that forces all units charging them to take a difficult terrain test. 4++ save seems a bit much, but 4+ cover save would be cool; it'd mean I could stop spamming Land Raiders too.

* Drop Pod-type Deep Striking for all Grey Knight units, including Troops ones. Note: not Drop Pods. If you want Drop Pods go and play the Smurf Codex.

* For the love of God give them some basic weaponry that can kill tanks. It doesn't have to be stuff like Meltaguns either; something like the old-school Holy Orb Of Antioch would be sweet, or maybe an Orbital Bombardment-type thing that doesn't suck balls.

* Rending... meh. The GKs don't get many attacks, and although with S6 those that do hit are likely to wound it's still not the handful of dice you really need to make Rending rawk. It'd make them better able to take on vehicles but there are more beneficial things that could be done. Rending Stormbolters might be nice

Drop Pods, Bikes and Jump Packs are stuff I wouldn't like to see Grey Knights get in the next Dex, whatever form it takes. I like playing Grey Knights precisely because they're NOT Marines; I have both, they're as different as night and day, and I'd quite like it to stay that way. If you think Drop Podding Dreads are aw-zum then go and play Smurfs.

I agree with that stuff.

It might be complicated, but I would add a third fire option to the psycannon:

Range: 36"
Strength: 9
AP: 3
Heavy 1

Gives an anti-tank weapon that isn't quite as good as a lascannon, but is still useful. Especially for the Terminators who can still walk around and use it.

Simply adding a third weapon to go alongside the Psycannon and Incinerator would be simpler. The Psycannon already has a Heavy profile.

It would also be a good idea for it to be AP1. If they're only going to have one man-portable AT weapon it might as well be a good one

@Frank Fugger: AP 1 would just jack the price up a helluva lot, and no. i do not want to play a damn smurf army. i was saying they need to have some way to drop in a dreadnought somewhere. drop pods were just the first thing i could think of.; Deep strike, whatever. something to get it to the front lines a lot faster. and i don't think anyone ever suggested any of that other crap. agreed on the last statement.

@kalaris: i sure as hell hope that isn't what the list will look like. i do NOT want stormtroopers as my only troops option.
I'd prefer to have a more assault oriented-style PAGK squad with the ability to be in fast attack just like the other PAGKs

I've already worked on a list with another guy in a different thread for an inquisition-lump codex

Orkeosaurus wrote:
HQ:
Inquisitor (may be upgraded to Inquisitor Lord)
Grand Master
Canoness
Deathwatch Captain

Elites:
Gray Knight Terminators (One squad may be taken as troops with a Grand Master)
Celestians (One squad may be taken as troops with a Canoness)
Deathwatch Insertion Team (One squad may be taken as troops with a Deathwatch Captain)
Daemonhost (Requires Inquisitor Lord)
Temple Assassin (0-1 Requires Inquisitor)

Troops:
SoB Battle Squad
Grey Knights Squad
DeathWatch Kill Team Squad
Inquisitorial Storm Trooper Squad
Infantry Platoon (Requires Inquisitor)
Zealot Mob (Can represent sisters repentia)

Fast Attack:
SoB Seraphim
Death Cult Assassins (Require Inquisitor)
Storm Trooper Droptroops (with Valkyrie, requires Inquisitor)
Gray Knight Teleportation Squad
Deathwatch Speeder (0-1 without Deathwatch Captain)

HS:
SoB Dominions
Penitant Engine (0-1 without Canoness)
Exorcist
Dreadnought (May be upgraded to Gray Knight Dreadnought with Grand Master)
Grey Knights Purgitation Squad
Land Raider (With variants, 0-1 without Grand Master)
Orbital Strike (0-1 Requires Inquisitor Lord or Deathwatch Captian)
Leman Russ (Single vehicle without variants, 0-1 Requires Inquisitor)

I love that list! I would be so Happy with that.

NO meltaguns!

Grey Knights are optimised to fight daemons. Daemons aren't exactly armour oriented. Giving GK meltaguns is just another step towards making more like every other army, and un-fluffy to boot.

I'd recommend some sort of close combat anti-tank device, rule or weapon. Maybe strength bonuses.

But no meltaguns.




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And i think that Inquisition Army List is a bit too permissive. Using this list, I could have an army featuring Grey Knights, Deathwatch AND Sisters. Maybe a bit too much for one force?

I think there was an alternate theory going around at the time which went something like...

HQ

Inquisitor
Grey Knights Captain
Cannoness
Preacher/Ecclesiarch
PDF Commander
Deathwatch Captain

Each of these 'unlocks' certain other selections, so Inquisitor unlocks

TROOPS - Storm Troopers
ELITE - Assassins, Daemonhosts

Preacher unlocks

TROOPS - Frateris Militia
HEAVY - Penitent Engines
FAST ATTACK - Arco-flagellants

Grey Knight Captain unlocks

TROOPS - Grey Knights
ELITES - GK Terminators
HEAVY - Dreads, Land Raiders

and so on and so forth. The trick is that, since you can only have 2 HQ choices, you can only have a maximum combined arms force of two organisations.

Ok Well I think the GK should get something thats like a melta gun but not a melta gun. Make it a psychic ablitly and let GK be able to take much like the Terminators can take Holocost make it an option for them to take Holocost or melta gun like psychic ablilty. However let only PAGK take the melta gun like one.

i like the third psycannon firing type. it'd be pretty good against vehicles.

and the idea with the list i made was that the inquisitorial forces working together. it was to make them more an army of specialists. besides, you were HEAVILY limited unless you had the HQ neccessary to get more.

GAH! double post.....

crazypsyko666 wrote:@Frank Fugger: AP 1 would just jack the price up a helluva lot, and no. i do not want to play a damn smurf army. i was saying they need to have some way to drop in a dreadnought somewhere.

Then you need to go and play Smurfs. They have Dreads AND Drop Pods. The GKs don't have any way to drop a Dread in somewhere, and with proper development they won't need to;. Frankly I think the GK Dreads were a stupid idea in the first place; they're unfluffy for a start, and in an army so direly lacking in AT having to waste a Heavy slot on an AV12 gun-carriage is annoying. Especially considering the GKs have no way to spam them a-la Smurf Codex and thus they tend to die fast and often.

The strength of a Grey Knights army is the fact that the Grey Knights are awesome, and it has to either find a way to stay that way whilst also becoming competetive against 5th Ed armies, OR it has to change so that Stormtroopers and other Inquisitorial units are actually worth taking, rather than simply being a drain on points you could be spending on more Grey Knights. Another possibility is for the Codexes to be joined, which I personally reckon is the best way to go. Being able to fill out Troops slots with Mech Sisters and wedge an Exorcist (or an Exorcist Squadron.... yay!) in alongside my Raiders and GKs would be sweet as anything.

As to the Fan-Dex; DCAs as Fast Attack is an awesome idea Celestian Troops would be cool too. I don't think the GM losing his retinue is good though; the ability to retinue-up is one of the greatest strengths he has, considering his so-so stat-line, and if they're going to make an OMGWTFAWSM HQ character it'd probably be better to do it as a Named IC.

ArbitorIan wrote:NO meltaguns!

Grey Knights are optimised to fight daemons.

And that's why they suck. If we want a proper, bona-fide Codex (which I assume we do?) then having them optimised to fight Daemons is not a good idea. Dump the Daemonic Nemesis crap and give them advantages that work against everyone. Ignoring invulnerable saves is a good one. Making Sacred Inscense and the Grimoire work against all opponents would be another.

Look at the Sisters. They're supposed to be the anti-psyker loons who hunt down witches, yet their Faith Points system allows them to kick ass wether psykers are involved or not. Why shouldn't the GKs run along similar lines?

You have a point there.

I think you missed the point of my argument frank fugger, my point was to give the GK dreads more versatility. I re-read the stats/point values, and for the price it doesn't seem relevant. it's already 25 points less for a better vehicle. in terms of fitting into fluff.... yahrly they fit. if a soldier is still alive, but incapable of fighting, the imperium will find a way. if it wasn't dreadnoughts, it would be bionics. LOTS of bionics.

I say if they increase the point values of a GK dreadnought, they'd better damn give them all the abilities in SOME way to a SM dread.

look, this is JUST A GAME. and these are just dreadnoughts. let's not take this too seriously.

Do you guys have any ideas for different statlines or anything?

i'd give PAGKs WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Sv (invulnerable) 25 points
5 4 5 4 2 5 2 8 3+ 6+

Termies: WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Sv (invulnerable) 50
5 5 6 5 2 5 3 10 2+ 5+

Justicar: WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Sv (invulnerable) 40 points, add in some useful ability
5 4 5 4 2 5 3 9 3+ 3+

Brother-Captain: WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Sv (invulnerable) 65
5 5 6 5 2 5 4 10 2+ 5+

Grand Master: WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Sv (invulnerable) 165 points
7 5 6 5 3 6 5 10 2+ 5+

Not alot different, just different stats. I don't know about letting the PAGKs have 2 wounds or the Grand Master with 5 attacks, C&C on those especially, and made the Grand Master a significantly more skilled Brother Captain. maybe BS 6 for him? also, give me opinions on point values. this is literally the first statline i've written.

crazypsyko666 wrote:I think you missed the point of my argument frank fugger, my point was to give the GK dreads more versatility.

I'd be all for this if, at the same time, they made the GK Dreads in some way unique and different. At the moment it's glaringly obvious to me that the GK Dreadnought option was tacked on late in the development of the Codex purely because the designers couldn't be arsed to come up with anything more inventive to fill up a HS slot. At least in 3rd Edition you could squeeze one or two into an army list and be fairly sure it'd do something for you, but nowadays GK Dreads don't even fit into an army list. Even the fluff for them is tacked on; the preamble to the book bangs on and on about how Grey Knights desire only to serve the Emperor and then rest beneath the cold earth of Titan, and then suddenly in the HS section you get this stupid little section that says "Sure GKs want only to rest beneath Titan... but sometimes they go in Dreadnoughts too, so here's Dreadnoughts".

I say if they increase the point values of a GK dreadnought, they'd better damn give them all the abilities in SOME way to a SM dread.

look, this is JUST A GAME. and these are just dreadnoughts. let's not take this too seriously.

That's all well and good, but there's nothing wrong with getting passionate about something you enjoy. I love the Daemonhunters; they were my first army, and no matter how far I stray into the world of competetive 40K or how much the DH Codex might suck I'll never stop playing them, just because I love the models, the fluff, and the whole Daemonhunters "thing". I'll also never stop trying to find ways to put GKs into my "hard" lists (they're some of the best infantry-killers in any Codex's Troops section, if anyone's interested) because the models are so much more awesome than the regular Smurf ones. The improvements I suggest for Daemonhunters and Grey Knights come from having played the Codex inside out enough to know what works, what doesn't, and what can be made to, and I make them with a view to keeping the Daemonhunters as unique and enjoyable as possible whilst also making them competetive again (because they used to be awesome; there was even a time when a Coteaz retinue was worth considering, if you can believe that).

The GKs' stats are fine as they are. Any improvements to the GM's stat-line would only strengthen the case for removing his ability to take a retinue, which weakens him far more than the few extra WS points would strengthen him (having a retinue means he can't be targetted seperately in CC as other ICs attached to units can be; if you can't work out how that makes a model with an S6 3rd Ed force weapon more powerful I dunno what to tell you). With WS5 the worst score he needs to hit anything in the game is a 4+, and considering he's in Termie armour (and thus can claim a bonus attack for charging) with 4A base there's really no reason he shouldn't be able to wound and kill anything in one go. What he'd benefit from more than anything else would be the ability to make 2 psychic tests per turn; that way he can down an IC with his force weapon AND use Holocaust on the IC's squad in the same Assault Phase.

There's also no reason for PAGKs to have any kind of invulnerable save, especially not one as pointless as a 6+. That'd just increase their cost without giving them any tangible benefit in return. Making The Shrouding a 4+ passive cover save that forces chargers to roll for difficult terrain would also increase their cost, but it'd also allow PAGKs to footslog even better than they do currently and it'd also play to their infantry-killing strengths (the Assault weapons and True Grit). Giving them some sort of AP1 weapon would further increase their footslogging viability, even assuming they do it with a Sisters-type ability. How's about this...

Any PAGK or GKT squad armed with one or more Psycannons may attempt to channel their combined psychic energy through the blessed weapons to further increase the deadliness of the projectile. When the weapon is fired, make a psychic test for the squad leader; if the test is passed, his squad's Psycannons will use the following profile in this shooting phase: Rng 36", S8, AP1, Heavy 1 Melta; or Rng 18", S8, AP1, Assault 1 Melta.
The psychic test counts towards the usual limit of psychic tests a model may make per turn. Only Psycannons carried by Grey Knights squads may use this ability; Inquisitors, even Lords, just aren't l33t enough.

Doing it this way, and allowing the GM to make 2 per turn while Justicars and BroCaps can only make 1, means a lot more tank-popping power without overly disturbing the way a footslogging GK list runs. Granted it'd make them completely unfeasible as Allies, but they should remove the Allies rules for Smurfs and IG anyway.

Some other ideas I've seen regarding Radical lists include some sort of Possessed Inquisitor Lord, a DP-like HQ choice who disallows GKs, allows the player to take his 0-1 Daemonhost unit as Troops, and makes the entire army Stubborn. A bunch of Radical-only wargear (like Daemon Weapons, Daemonic Henchmen, etc etc) would be awesome too; one of the coolest ideas I've seen is making the Obliterator Virus an item of wargear that would grant an Inquisitor Lord and his retinue a stat-line similar to Obliterators, the use of Obliterator Weapons, and the Relentless rule.

They also need to remove the Inquisitor requirement on Assassins and make Eisenhorn or Ravenor a Named IC.

crazypsyko666 wrote:

Do you guys have any ideas for different statlines or anything?

i'd give PAGKs WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Sv (invulnerable) 25 points
5 4 5 4 2 5 2 8 3+ 6+

Termies: WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Sv (invulnerable) 50
5 5 6 5 2 5 3 10 2+ 5+

Justicar: WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Sv (invulnerable) 40 points, add in some useful ability
5 4 5 4 2 5 3 9 3+ 3+

Brother-Captain: WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Sv (invulnerable) 65
5 5 6 5 2 5 4 10 2+ 5+

Grand Master: WS BS S T W I A Ld Sv Sv (invulnerable) 165 points
7 5 6 5 3 6 5 10 2+ 5+

Not alot different, just different stats. I don't know about letting the PAGKs have 2 wounds or the Grand Master with 5 attacks, C&C on those especially, and made the Grand Master a significantly more skilled Brother Captain. maybe BS 6 for him? also, give me opinions on point values. this is literally the first statline i've written.

I really like this idea. GK's should be extremely powerful because they are super marines not just shrouded MEQs. Expensive is fine as long as they're powerful like this. ATM theyre not as powerful as they should be fluff-wise.

The Brother Captain/Grand Master really need an Iron Halo-esque 4+ save. With only a 5+ they're just power fist food.

... or they would be if they couldn't take retinues. With a retinue they can't be targetted independently in close combat, which means your powerfist bod is going to be attacking the ordinary Termies until they're all dead.

Assuming he lives long enough to get his attacks in.

Also the Brother-Captain is a single-wound model anyway so ID or no ID doesn't matter.