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Were you there GG?

Elessar wrote:Were you there GG?

I was and he is 100% correct on his points. Most tournaments barely break even. The best painted army was a Tau army and it was beautiful. The paint scores had some deviations but I have seen worse at GTs for deviating paint scores.

I was there and I was also one of the people being criticized (foolishly I might add) for having an allegedly bad list on that other forum (which I never am on). While I don't really feel I need to justify my list to anyone this is what I actually took:

IG command w/ 2 meltaguns, astropath in chimera with HF, multilaser

Yarrick (rides with ogryns)

20 man platoon with 2 autocannons, 2 plasma guns

Platoon command squad with 2 flamers in chimera with HF, multilaser

10 man vet squad with 3 meltaguns (rides in the valk)

10 man vet squad with 2 meltaguns in chimera with HF, multilaser

5 man ogryn squad in chimera with HF, dozerblade, multilaser

Demolisher with PC sponsons, hull LC

Executioner with PC sponsons, hull HF

Manticore

Valkryie with Multilaser, Rocket pods (vets ride in it).

I went 3-2 with this army at the Necro and was in first place going into sunday morning. Additionally, my record with this army so far is posted in my sig. So any doubters can sit on it. There is more to this game than an exercise of list building. I am a 20 year veteran of this game and have a decent tournament record. I don't need someone to tell me what works and what doesn't. I don't make arbitrary list choices either. In a nut shell...I know WTF I am doing with my list and how to win with it. While I feel that I got boned in how the mission went down in the 4th round, I don't begrudge anyone that ran the tournament. They can run it how they see fit. If people have a problem with it they can vote with their dollar. Choose to attend or not. Criticizing an event that you have never been to just makes you look like an a$$hole.

Capt K

Elessar wrote:Were you there GG?

Yes I was.

GG

Timmah wrote:
It seems like it encourages bad army building. I mean, nidzilla is really the only way to play nids and have a chance, and its still not really considered that good of list. So if some list thats maybe tier 2 or tier 3 is getting massively knocked for being OP then how crappy were the rest of the lists there?

Yes and no, the theory is that you can take bad units because you like the goofy rules or models, and you wont be totally shooting yourself in the foot for it because everyones doing the same thing. You don't end up having to take certain units purely because of how good they are.
However in reality, some gak things still get smashed in comp, and some good things get a free comp ride - because its so subjective and people are always getting it pretty wrong.
The theory is that if everyone is playing with a more difficult to use army, the game is more about gameplay and generalship skill, and less about paper scissor rock point and click stuff - I don't think it actually works out like that though when you stop just looking at things on paper.

So it has its merits, and it has its shortcommings, I can see why both camps like things the way they are - I just wish comp could be as good as its intentions
I am surprised that a big tournament over there ran with it, where as over here - there are never any tournaments without it. NEVER. It creates a new metagame, a different metagame. The skill in list building becomes not about making the strongest army possible, but about hiding that strength, so that it looks soft on paper, and then culminates to one giant middle finger.

I personally just think that at a tournament you should bring your power lists. Use your fun lists for casual games.


@ the IG list

Your counter charge unit gets smoked by most other counter charge units (bikers, council, TH/SS termies).

Your mobility seems really easily countered by popping a couple chimera's.

Its not a bad list, but its not a tournament winning list imo.

Well that's why he didn't win... But, it's a good enough list that it *could* win with the right usage.

Very true. But back to my original point. I would guess that you don't believe your list to be some insane power game list. And really nidzilla is the only decently competitive list nids have at the moment.

So in essence a couple people thought your list was too cheesy and it cost you a win. Which kinda sucks that you lost because of something you have no control over.

Grats on your finish though.

In CaptKarouthers fashion, I will put my comment first

I agree 100% with the comment below. If you are talking about Stelek's blog and the comments he makes turns me off from reading it. This game is a lot more than list building, and it is also a matter of finding a list that matches your play style.

Bad players play a lot with over powered lists because that is what they need to win, and the fact that they take those lists make them bad players because they are use to blowing their opponent off the table and when they are up against a good player they do not have the strategy and tactics foundation to fall back on to win.

CaptKaruthors wrote:
There is more to this game than an exercise of list building. I am a 20 year veteran of this game and have a decent tournament record. I don't need someone to tell me what works and what doesn't. I don't make arbitrary list choices either. In a nut shell...I know WTF I am doing with my list and how to win with it.

Although I was not there I did criticize the event because it seems like the Tyranid players got hosed with comp.

While I feel that I got boned in how the mission went down in the 4th round, I don't begrudge anyone that ran the tournament. They can run it how they see fit. If people have a problem with it they can vote with their dollar. Choose to attend or not. Criticizing an event that you have never been to just makes you look like an a$$hole.


Capt K

Automatically Appended Next Post:

proximity wrote:lol yermom, I've been where you are now ;D
You haven't truely been robbed until you get to take the trophy for first at a GT home for 2 weeks, then get a phone call saying saying "uhhh yeah, the TO's screwed up, your list was too hard, and now that we've applied a penalty that you are the only one in all of australasia to get, you've actually finished 14th. Gonna need you to bring that trophy back in... ta!"
With nidzilla as well ;D!

Given the changes to nids in 5th, I think you were quite hard done by :( Hard luck mate!

The same thing happened to me. I was playing at Kubla Con in San Francisco and I massacred in all 5 games and I ended up winning. Then a few days latter I read about how there was an accounting error, and someone else won.

I really did win thought because they had a check list comp scoring system were I did not receive all of the points that I should have gotten, but I had the win and I did not want to fight it.

The funning thing is that I was playing Godzilla Tyranids. See a theme?

@ the IG list

Your counter charge unit gets smoked by most other counter charge units (bikers, council, TH/SS termies).

You are making the assumption that I send this unit after crap like that. The orgyns aren't used like that. They have shooting and assaulting to use equally. TH/SS terminators have been smoked by Yarrick and ogyrns...5 man squads of terminators can't get it done when I can pump them full of lead and then assault whats left. 5 terminators don't scare me. Nob bikers will be lucky to have enough models to put up a fight after they've been taking it in the shorts from the Executioner, Demolisher and Manticore. The council I will agree with you on..but I wouldn't send the orgyns after a unit like that unless I had no other choice. Play the Yarrick + Orgyn combo and you will see that it isn't as easy of a unit to take down as you think.

Your mobility seems really easily countered by popping a couple chimera's.

Which is no different than any other IG army. I have 5 transports in my army + tanks. Most of the time it isn't an issue for me. In all my games at the Necro I never lost all my transports in a single game. By game's end I have enough mobility to get the job done.

Its not a bad list, but its not a tournament winning list imo.

I guess we'll agree to disagree then. I had a really good chance at having a shot at the overall. The ruling in the 4th game mission boned me from the start..and my dice screwed me in the 5th (killing my own units with bad scatters in a KP mission doesn't help my cause)..as the opponent and several others that were watching can attest...but hey, my win record must be a fluke, right? The thing is this, whether you think it's a good list or not is irrelevant. The list can match up to most armies and succeed most of the time. In 5th edition that's the best you can expect where there is no such thing as auto win lists.

Capt K

CaptKaruthors wrote:
my record with this army so far is posted in my sig.

Never understood the need/desire for that to be honest.

Besides the fact that it is pointless information being presented to faceless individuals one will mostly never meet, it also seems a little self-indulgent.

My record with SOB is 1023-1-1 btw (does anyone ever post a losing record?)

It's more to track progress than anything. Self indulgent? Hardly. Losing record? Sure...My Tau had a losing record for a while in the beginning. Now I don't even play them anymore. Whether you think it's pointless is irrelevant. It isn't there to server your needs...nor do I expect it to.

Capt K

CT GAMER wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:
my record with this army so far is posted in my sig.

Never understood the need/desire for that to be honest.

Besides the fact that it is pointless information being presented to faceless individuals one will mostly never meet, it also seems a little self-indulgent.

My record with SOB is 1023-1-1 btw (does anyone ever post a losing record?)

Well said.

(does anyone ever post a losing record?)

I used to have a losing record in my sig on all forums I posted on, but I eventually lost count and decided to just get rid of it.

Last I checked, I was at about 9 wins and pushing almost 20 losses. And I haven't won a single game since 5th.

I'm not sure if this is my first or second post as I generally just lurk on Dakka... I went to Stelek's blog today for the first time after time reading time and again the different comments on his site. Yes he has difficulty in softening tone to deliver criticism, but what exactly so gets to people that they feel the need to constantly reference his site? If you truly dislike his advice/forum, I would suggest not referencing the site so that more people (like me) don't get curious and check it out...

Having said that I think there is actually a lot of good information on the site. While at times the commentary on lists is unproductive and curt, if you take soem time to look through similar topics you will find plenty of rationale/thought process behind the optimization of the lists. Frankly, if he really does repsond to all the e-mails he gets, as suggested on his site, he should actually be lauded for taking the time to try and promote his views.

I did not play in the Necro nor have I spoken with anyone that did so I'm not able to provide any real commentary on the tourney. However, in reading Capt K's issues with the 4th game and what seems like a ludricous penalty on the Tyranid army (I also believe they are ill-served by 5th), I would argue that maybe some objective look at the running of the Necro would be productive.

CaptKaruthors wrote:It's more to track progress than anything. Self indulgent? Hardly. Losing record? Sure...My Tau had a losing record for a while in the beginning. Now I don't even play them anymore. Whether you think it's pointless is irrelevant. It isn't there to server your needs...nor do I expect it to.

Capt K

CT GAMER wrote:

CaptKaruthors wrote:
my record with this army so far is posted in my sig.

Never understood the need/desire for that to be honest.

Besides the fact that it is pointless information being presented to faceless individuals one will mostly never meet, it also seems a little self-indulgent.

My record with SOB is 1023-1-1 btw (does anyone ever post a losing record?)

I honestly think it is a bit self-indulgent, even if not the aim. You don't benefit from wins, they make you cocky, and resistant to change. Not talking about you personally, although plenty of people wouldn't argue if I did.

Only through failure can you learn - reminding yourself you're good all the time just makes you feel worse when you lose, and worse at the game, so you will lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Marcus, you seem a solid guy! Welcome to Dakka, and welcome to YTTH. I also heartily recommend Bald and Screaming.

CaptKaruthors wrote:It's more to track progress than anything. Self indulgent? Hardly. Losing record? Sure...My Tau had a losing record for a while in the beginning. Now I don't even play them anymore. Whether you think it's pointless is irrelevant. It isn't there to server your needs...nor do I expect it to.

Capt K

As I stated It is obviously to serve your "needs".

Look in your post that I quoted from and see how many times you reference winning or your own ability with said army. Look at your response post to others a few posts later in which you point out your 20 years of experience, the fact that you "know what your doing", etc., etc. It is obviously very important to you to win and be perceived as a winner.

Why?

Play the game, have fun and realize that 40K( and one's record) isn't a determiner for one's value as a person...

Well this is certainly going OT now.

Darkness wrote:Just another reason why comp score should go the way of the dinosaur

QFT. Or at least make comp scores open to the public for review and the ability to criticize.

proximity wrote:lol yermom, I've been where you are now ;D
You haven't truely been robbed until you get to take the trophy for first at a GT home for 2 weeks, then get a phone call saying saying "uhhh yeah, the TO's screwed up, your list was too hard, and now that we've applied a penalty that you are the only one in all of australasia to get, you've actually finished 14th. Gonna need you to bring that trophy back in... ta!"
With nidzilla as well ;D!

Given the changes to nids in 5th, I think you were quite hard done by :( Hard luck mate!

I would return the trophy, right up the to's ass.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

generalgrog wrote:

Afrikan Blonde wrote:People want to make more money so some fantasy guys who know nothing about 40k add that in. I heard the paint judging was terrible.

1) The necro organizers don't make any money for running the tourney. They claim that they barely break even, and I believe them.
2) The guy that won best painted army was a fantasticly painted Tau army that was voted on by the attendees
3) If your refering to paint scores that figured into overall, I'm not sure what you heard, but I disagree that it was terrible.

GG

Any arbitrary scoring system is inherently a bad way to judge winners and losers in a tourney, especially when it's your opponent doing some of the scoring.

Any soft scores are bad that determine the outcome of the 'winners'. End of story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Blackmoor wrote:The same thing happened to me. I was playing at Kubla Con in San Francisco and I massacred in all 5 games and I ended up winning. Then a few days latter I read about how there was an accounting error, and someone else won.

I really did win thought because they had a check list comp scoring system were I did not receive all of the points that I should have gotten, but I had the win and I did not want to fight it.

The funning thing is that I was playing Godzilla Tyranids. See a theme?

And this is but a small example of why the 'gt' system is just 3 week old road kill smelly bad.

And what's even more amazing is the signs of no outrage that this happens and more than likely much worse.

That 'other-site-that-can't-be-mentioned' has got it right. The tourney scene for 40k is a toxic-waste-bearing-train-colliding-with-a-nuclear-plant wreck.

It's beyond fixing.

As I stated It is obviously to serve your "needs".

Look in your post that I quoted from and see how many times you reference winning or your own ability with said army. Look at your response post to others a few posts later in which you point out your 20 years of experience, the fact that you "know what your doing", etc., etc. It is obviously very important to you to win and be perceived as a winner.

Is it really that bothersome to you? Seriously? Dude check your head. You are berating me for a sig on a forum and I have the problem? The bottomline is this: I use that info for several factors which were already posted in previous post. Secondly, this is a game. I have played it along time. I don't need to be taught, told, or otherwise suggested to by complete strangers how to play the game...especially since 95% the time they are parroting what some other person has said, etc. and really doesn't understand what the hell they are talking about. I don't need a game to feel better about myself..nor do I need a website, a blog, or any of the other internet crap to feel better about myself either. The collection of rants, etc on the forums that I see is hilarious since it is such a galactic waste of time...especially in someone else's thread...AND about something as mundane as a fething sig. Like I said earlier..I am disappointed in myself for even dignifying this with an answer.

Why?

Play the game, have fun and realize that 40K( and one's record) isn't a determiner for one's value as a person...

Please see other post. Thanks for the lesson man, but I already don't need 40k to teach me to value myself. Thanks for playing.

Capt K

I honestly think it is a bit self-indulgent, even if not the aim. You don't benefit from wins, they make you cocky, and resistant to change. Not talking about you personally, although plenty of people wouldn't argue if I did.

Again, you are making the assumption that it's people's aim to be cocky, resistant to change, etc. vs. having it as a form of data collection. I use those records to track the viability of the builds I create for tournaments and whether it is worth spending the time and energy buying/painting/ practicing with that list. This game costs money. Tournaments cost money. Any smart person will tell you to research your stuff before committing to a plan. That is why I have them. On a more lifestyle level, I could give two sh*ts what my record is. My life isn't defined by this game. I rarely post on forums and I don't have an entire fething blog devoted to this game like others do. Harping on my win/ loss sig is quite trivial and I am surprised to see that people have to niggle over something as pointless as that. Is the day really that boring for you? Furthermore, I am disappointed in myself for even dignifying this with a response...but sometimes I have to point out the obvious.

Only through failure can you learn - reminding yourself you're good all the time just makes you feel worse when you lose, and worse at the game, so you will lose.

Well duh. You don't say? All this time I thought winning makes it all worth while. I lose quite often, the thing you are missing is that my posted records are from tournament type games and not the run of the mill chill games. Like I said I track for a reason. This game is an investment of time. Since my time is limited...I'd like to know what is worth banking on.

Capt K

Sounds like you had a great time Yermom!!

I like the fact that you use Extended Carapace on your Carinfex's AND Tyrants even with guard. I play orks and the friend I play the most against plays 'nids. When he uses EC the games are so much harder. Some people will tell you're wasting points but AP2 is way better than AP3.

Thanks for the Battle Reports

PipeAlley

PipeAlley wrote:When he uses EC the games are so much harder. Some people will tell you're wasting points but AP2 is way better than AP3.

Yeah, not so much for all the AP 3 weapons, because the game's moving away from them now that Marines aren't the be all end all. But it's twice as hard to dakka a TMC with EC off the table.

CaptKaruthors wrote:

I honestly think it is a bit self-indulgent, even if not the aim. You don't benefit from wins, they make you cocky, and resistant to change. Not talking about you personally, although plenty of people wouldn't argue if I did.

Again, you are making the assumption that it's people's aim to be cocky, resistant to change, etc. vs. having it as a form of data collection. I use those records to track the viability of the builds I create for tournaments and whether it is worth spending the time and energy buying/painting/ practicing with that list. This game costs money. Tournaments cost money. Any smart person will tell you to research your stuff before committing to a plan. That is why I have them. On a more lifestyle level, I could give two sh*ts what my record is. My life isn't defined by this game. I rarely post on forums and I don't have an entire fething blog devoted to this game like others do. Harping on my win/ loss sig is quite trivial and I am surprised to see that people have to niggle over something as pointless as that. Is the day really that boring for you? Furthermore, I am disappointed in myself for even dignifying this with a response...but sometimes I have to point out the obvious.

Only through failure can you learn - reminding yourself you're good all the time just makes you feel worse when you lose, and worse at the game, so you will lose.

Well duh. You don't say? All this time I thought winning makes it all worth while. I lose quite often, the thing you are missing is that my posted records are from tournament type games and not the run of the mill chill games. Like I said I track for a reason. This game is an investment of time. Since my time is limited...I'd like to know what is worth banking on.

Capt K

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CaptKaruthors wrote:

As I stated It is obviously to serve your "needs".

Look in your post that I quoted from and see how many times you reference winning or your own ability with said army. Look at your response post to others a few posts later in which you point out your 20 years of experience, the fact that you "know what your doing", etc., etc. It is obviously very important to you to win and be perceived as a winner.

Is it really that bothersome to you? Seriously? Dude check your head. You are berating me for a sig on a forum and I have the problem? The bottomline is this: I use that info for several factors which were already posted in previous post. Secondly, this is a game. I have played it along time. I don't need to be taught, told, or otherwise suggested to by complete strangers how to play the game...especially since 95% the time they are parroting what some other person has said, etc. and really doesn't understand what the hell they are talking about. I don't need a game to feel better about myself..nor do I need a website, a blog, or any of the other internet crap to feel better about myself either. The collection of rants, etc on the forums that I see is hilarious since it is such a galactic waste of time...especially in someone else's thread...AND about something as mundane as a fething sig. Like I said earlier..I am disappointed in myself for even dignifying this with an answer.

Why?

Play the game, have fun and realize that 40K( and one's record) isn't a determiner for one's value as a person...

Please see other post. Thanks for the lesson man, but I already don't need 40k to teach me to value myself. Thanks for playing.

Capt K

You and your "dignity' just won the internetz. Congrats!!!

I'll gracefully bow out of this thread so you can turn it down from 11 to maybe 8 or 9 (hopefully) and not have a brain aneurysm or something...

Ludovic wrote:

PipeAlley wrote:When he uses EC the games are so much harder. Some people will tell you're wasting points but AP2 is way better than AP3.

Yeah, not so much for all the AP 3 weapons, because the game's moving away from them now that Marines aren't the be all end all. But it's twice as hard to dakka a TMC with EC off the table.

Totally!! I have 13 bikers in my ork army. You wouldn't think AP2 versus AP3 would make all that difference but trying to shoot them and then assault seems that much more difficult.