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rubiksnoob wrote:There is always something that you can do to improve your situation that is better than whining about it.

Yes and one of those things is called talking about it.

Besides I sincerely want and would put the energy into creating a massive fortune, and I know for a fact that I can do it. The problem is that I have to follow a set of rules that I don't necessarily agree with, and I would also have to bend a lot of my morals further than I am willing to for money. I think the main issue here is about equality, and how people use it in different ways.

These could be both good and bad, but quite frankly saying someone failed because they wanted to as a RULE is just ignorance.

rubiksnoob wrote:Social mobility is the responsibility if the individual, not society. If you are born to a poor family, tough. Work hard in school, don't do drugs, don't party. If you work hard you will find a way to get into college via scholarship, two years community college than transfer, etc.

Society is responsible for providing the conditions under which hard work leads to success, the individual is responsible for doing the hard work to take advantage of the conditions.

If you are born to a poor family:

1) Hope that you have good schools around you. You can work as hard as you want in a crappy school district and you're still going to get a crappy education.

2) Make sure that you don't have to start working at an early age to supplement the family income.

3) Pray that you were born to good parentage who teach you about safe sex and drugs such that you don't fall into either of the many traps these two things provide in plentitude.

Etc.

Many people who talk about "being born poor" have no conception of what it is to be "poor." The sort of people who do aren't posting here on Dakka Dakka because they don't own a computer nor do they have access to one...

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:So the people that tried and failed didn't try hard enough?

Honest to goodness lie that one is, no doubt there.

often yes.

i know when I've stuffed something up or didn't get what I wanted it was through a lack of preperation or endeavour on my part.

Which is why in my last year of medical school I did 3-6 hours of actual learning study every single day, on top of my clinical and university work for 11 months until my finals were over. If I hadn't studied that hard I would not have easily passed, gotten the job I have, offered to be on medical and training comittees and get the referees to allow me to get a General Practitioner training interview next week.

Are you going to back up what you are saying by telling me that I too can be a doctor if I want to no matter who I am or where I was born?

As I said before:

Orange juice concentrate is not actually made only of oranges mate.

Refer to this for factual... LOL (Kel is just the most awesome, yet annoying character nickelodeon has EVER envisioned)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmQYcYoTkDk&feature=related
This is a kids movie and it teaches them that they can somehow overcome adversity through luck, and well, basically what you are saying WaaghGonads. I actually like this movie though, these guys are a pretty good duo, and they talk about SOME important stuff that actually makes sense... sometimes.




You are flat out lying to me if you think that you are not lucky.

First of all I am quite sure that you are Caucasian (your skin is not brown) and you have already stated that you were from a good family that helped you out.

Reality check man, we do not all share your comforts OR your "God" given skills (everyone is different). I am actually a bit surprised to hear you say this stuff man.

Quite frankly I think that prior to answering a question like this, and many of the questions on forums like this, one should have to fill out the following form at the opening of each post:

Race:
Religion:
Gender:
Age:
Education:
Salary (if appropriate):
Location:

It would be interesting to then note the tenor of responses with the identity of the respondent...see how many middle-class people opined on what it is to be poor...how many white people opine about the state of racism in their community...etc...

It is an international forum, not that most aren't mind you, but they make a point of representing people with flags, AND their right to talk about pretty much anything not totally and obviously out of order... mind you, Frazzled is watching... beware...

I just spent about ten minutes looking around for an old Economist studying comparing social mobility across classes. I found a bunch of other bits and pieces, but nothing with the charts of the Economist piece (love or hate the Economist, you can't deny it has brilliant charts).

Meanwhile, social mobility is strongly controlled by the country you're in. Even within the developed world there is great variation from nation to nation. If people are going to claim that upward social mobility is entirely up to the individual, then you're going to have to explain why some Western countries have so much more of it than others. Unless you want to claim that the children of working class families in some countries are generally smarter, harder working and more meritorious than the children of working class families in others, then you have to acknowledge that society plays a part in providing opportunities.

And Waaagh Gonads, the US is not the best proponent of social mobility. The US actually scores much lower than other parts of the developed world, but that's kind of inevitable when you look at US welfare, healthcare and education policies (you have to pay how much to go to college?). Don't believe me?

http://www.suttontrust.com/reports/IntergenerationalMobility.pdf
"International comparisons indicate that intergenerational mobility in Britain is of the same order of magnitude as in the US, but that these countries are substantially less mobile than Canada and the Nordic countries. Germany also looks to be more mobile than the UK and US, but a small sample size prevents us drawing a firm conclusion."

Wrexasaur wrote: mind you, Frazzled is watching... beware...

What? just talk into the flower



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I myself am trying to steer clear of this discussion. Some of my views on this topic could be considered unnatural... (there I go channeling the emperor again)

Wrekasaur, what colour is Obama's skin? What colour Colin Powell, what colour Bill Richardson, what colour Mukesh Ambani and what colour Oprah?

Honestly dude, setting yourself up with a view that other people have inate advantages that you can do nothing about and then decide it isn't worth trying is setting yourself up to fail.

And yes my family helped, my parents worked 5 jobs between them (and I worked too) to get me and my sister through high school. I've gone for long periods at university (first time through) with 25 dollars to feed myself for a week. We were never dirt poor but it showed me that hard work goes a long way to improving your life.

I put the proviso on the above that yes in many areas of the 3rd world none of the above will apply to most people because even with an education or ability, there is a very limited amount of places/jobs where that can be applied.

Add the numbers up before you make broad sweeping arguments. The majority of "minorities" in the U.S. are NOT wealthy, and a few rappers with yesterdays piss in their pockets will not change that at all.

Add the numbers up, show me a chart to prove your point.

I would also like to ask how average your situation was when you were struggling. Are there a lot of people that have a hard time in Oz?

Out here it is a epidemic man, I can go to nearly every city in the area and find at least one ghetto. The only areas w/o these problems are relatively color-free (and nice and rich too! Gotta love that KFC when they aren't around ) to put it bluntly. Yet again, add the numbers up and give me proof I am wrong.

Sebster probably has a much more informed opinion than me, at least on a technical level, I will shoot him a P.M. if you want.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Honestly dude, setting yourself up with a view that other people have inate advantages that you can do nothing about and then decide it isn't worth trying is setting yourself up to fail.

I do not disagree with you here at all, but the situation out here has to be much different than Oz. There are factors that make this a much more serious issue, the fact that we have been a serious place for racial issues to come out into the open by sheer odds alone.

I'll show you mine if you show me your's.

Yes I know minorities in the US have traditionally not been wealthy. But there a hell of alot of poor white people too.

So you go to an area of social disadvantage where unemployment is high, education rates low and social problems are following. Gee wizz 1+2 really does =3.


Tell me, please, how anyone in the US has a harder time making a go of it than 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:Tell me, please, how anyone in the US has a harder time making a go of it than 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago.

Now they have to sell drugs because there is no work left? This is a bit of a joke, but it is a lot more factual than a lot of people would like to believe.

I would like to believe that you are right, but my many years of experience with people from all walks of life has proven that you are wrong.

I am not saying there needs to be a place for lazy bastards, where reparation checks are handed out (I am sorry but that whole mess is just a huge scam, regardless of who did what, and what decade it was done in a centuries ago, CENTURIES AGO!!!) but there does need to be a serious discussion as to how this is going to effect the country at large. Whether anyone likes it or not, there is a place in the U.S. that you can be socially where there is no escape, you are not going to be able to leave unless you ARE some sort of super-person with dedication that would knock you on your ass man.

The amount of energy they need to put in (this is all minorities, which would obviously be a much bigger issue than race when it really comes down to it, as you said there are poor white people) to receive the same education someone from a better background would receive is totally out of the reach of the common man.

Another thing, what is the drug war in your country? Are there legitimate suspicions that your form of C.I.A. has planted (and may be doing so still, there quite a bit of evidence to back this up.) large amounts of drugs into black communities? Do you have any concentrated black communities?

We have aboriginal communities (primarily in regional and country areas) but as a whole aboriginies and torres staight islanders make up about 2.2% of the population so their numbers are quite small when compared to the 15.4% hispanic and 12.8% african american in the US.

So to look for large 'ghetto' neighbourhoods leads you invariably to outermetropolitan white trash neighbourhoods in the capital cities where suprise suprise, there is high unemployment, low education and no services.

And before you go on a rant about how Australia is too bland, 23.1% of Australians were born overseas.

I am seriously interested in going to Australia and Sheep island too at some point, so don't take what I am saying as an insult by any means.

I would compare the Aboriginies much closer the the Native Americans than any other group in the U.S.

Here is mine, I won't be doing much quoting on this one, there is just way too much information.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States

Here is Oz,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Australia

In short, classes suck but they do form anyways. As long as society is egalitarian where a person can wok their way out of poverty, no opportunity is denied based on race etc, and all treated the same under the law, things would be fine. One thing that prevents that: fear. In such a society, it is possible for the wealthy to be poor. That is why US has bailed out corporations for reckless behavior even though those same suits support free markets. Hypocrites.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I'll show you mine if you show me your's.

Yes I know minorities in the US have traditionally not been wealthy. But there a hell of alot of poor white people too.

Nowhere near the same level. I don't know much about the issue, to be honest, but the stats are on wiki. In 2006 white folk in the US had an average income of $32,919, for Hispanic it was $23,613. That's a massive difference.

Tell me, please, how anyone in the US has a harder time making a go of it than 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago.

False argument. The issue isn't whether there are more opportunities, but whether the level of opportunity means we can act as if this is a meritocracy, and therefore can assume that if someone is less well-off it's because of their own failings.

Did you read any of the link I provided above? Even just the quoted section? It states quite clearly which countries have greater social mobility.

I believe that all people should be born into the same social strata, and that merit and effort will weed out the winners from there. I don't believe anyones child is entitled to more than any other persons, nor do I believe they should ever be.

My views on this topic are a bit extreme, probably being the polar opposite of Frazzleds. I think people are inherently stupid, self destructive, and short sighted. This world doesn't have enough green growy crap on it any more for romantic views of aristocracy and the myth of unhindered social mobility through hard work and perseverance. It doesn't have enough left on it for the capitalist views of consumerism and production, and it doesn't have enough left on it for us to bicker. Which we will. Until everyones dead. Woo.

Tell me, please, how anyone in the US has a harder time making a go of it than 20 years ago, 30 years ago, 100 years ago, 200 years ago.

Right now its far harder to receive a college degree than it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Drying up financial aid and the meteoric rise of college costs past inflation is doing a pretty good job of this alone. Combine this with the increasing focus on a trained workforce in america and the job flight of untrained high payed factory work and you've got a rather obvious recipe for difficulty when compared to what came before. People can't afford the colleges they need for jobs, those jobs then don't hire them, thus the next generation can afford education even less, thus they get even fewer jobs. All the while job flight for trained work leaves the country as well.

Shuma, you know I can't figure you the hell out, I guess you just hate humanity or have some sort of angst.

But about the belief that every child should be equal. I do agree that each child should have equal access to the same materials(books, computers, writing devices, etc) however I do not agree that children should be brought up in the same ways exactly. The adversity makes people different and because of this difference there are added benefits. For example if no one on earth committed crime then why would we need a police force, or if no one was evil then why would we need a military? Each counteracts an aspect of humanity that we deem as evil, except they are necessary evils. We need evil so we can do good, yadda, yadda.

Also, I believe that the parents of children, more often than not, want their children to have better lives than what they had and the only way to do it is to put money into their education.

Now if drugs were legal then we could see a great many entrepenuers(spelling) creating new businesses. You gott be smart to deal drugs successfully.

halonachos wrote:I do agree that each child should have equal access to the same materials(books, computers, writing devices, etc) however I do not agree that children should be brought up in the same ways exactly. The adversity makes people different and because of this difference there are added benefits. For example if no one on earth committed crime then why would we need a police force, or if no one was evil then why would we need a military? Each counteracts an aspect of humanity that we deem as evil, except they are necessary evils. We need evil so we can do good, yadda, yadda.

So...it's good that we have children brought up badly who commit crime and terrorism because that lets us have a police force and military?

Wow.

Letys put it like this. I don't want any of you sorry losers trying to raise my kids to whatever screwed standards you may have (I mean that in the best way possible). I'm sure this feeling is vice versa.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Right now its far harder to receive a college degree than it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Drying up financial aid and the meteoric rise of college costs past inflation is doing a pretty good job of this alone. Combine this with the increasing focus on a trained workforce in america and the job flight of untrained high payed factory work and you've got a rather obvious recipe for difficulty when compared to what came before. People can't afford the colleges they need for jobs, those jobs then don't hire them, thus the next generation can afford education even less, thus they get even fewer jobs. All the while job flight for trained work leaves the country as well.

I think this is factually untrue, in America anyway. Part of the reason why Bachelor's Degrees don't mean anything anymore is because almost every Tom, Dick, and Harry has one.

Master's Degrees are, today, what Bachelor's Degrees were 30 years ago...i.e. the mark of someone who is "college educated," or someone who is committed to "higher learning." I work for a university, and I can tell you that that's just how it is. B.A./B.S. are a dime a dozen. M.A./M.S. is when you "join the club."

Cairnius wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
Right now its far harder to receive a college degree than it was 10, 20 or 30 years ago. Drying up financial aid and the meteoric rise of college costs past inflation is doing a pretty good job of this alone. Combine this with the increasing focus on a trained workforce in america and the job flight of untrained high payed factory work and you've got a rather obvious recipe for difficulty when compared to what came before. People can't afford the colleges they need for jobs, those jobs then don't hire them, thus the next generation can afford education even less, thus they get even fewer jobs. All the while job flight for trained work leaves the country as well.

I think this is factually untrue, in America anyway. Part of the reason why Bachelor's Degrees don't mean anything anymore is because almost every Tom, Dick, and Harry has one.

Master's Degrees are, today, what Bachelor's Degrees were 30 years ago...i.e. the mark of someone who is "college educated," or someone who is committed to "higher learning." I work for a university, and I can tell you that that's just how it is. B.A./B.S. are a dime a dozen. M.A./M.S. is when you "join the club."

Yeah, I don't have the cash for continued education past the BA that I'm working towards now. As it is I can't even afford the final year unless I find some sort of rather incredible scholarships. I routinely make deans list and get that stupid little pin they send in the mail, and I routinely do well for myself. Maine doesn't even have the money to pave its roads, let alone send its children to good schools. I come from a single parent, 4 child household. I have no cosigner, no financially endowed family, and I have spent every last dime I've made over the last few years simply to be able to attend a school. Twenty years ago, when this state could afford it and when colleges were 50% less expensive I could have made this easy.

As for you saying its untrue, how about you tell me how? How about you sight some sort of statistic instead of telling me that "every tom, dick, and harry has a BA? Why don't you tell me why the cost of higher education has been raised past inflation every year for decades? Why don't you tell me why community colleges have seen thousand percent surges in application over the last few years? How about you explain the incredibly low level of degree holding citizens in my home state of maine, a state recovering (slowly) from what was once a thriving traditional untrained manufacturing economy?


What exactly do you do for your university? Because I work at mine, and post secondary education is what it always was. And it's not a "club".

Shuma, you know I can't figure you the hell out, I guess you just hate humanity or have some sort of angst.

I hate some parts of humanity. Not an ethnicity or income bracket. Or even a religion or anything like that. I just hate the stupid ignorant little tools that are crushing this nation between their fat cheeto stained fingers. I hate the soccer moms that drive SUVs "for the safety". I hate the old mouth breathers that cry about chinese manufacturing because its "cheap" when I have never in my life bought a product that was american made that I thought held any sort of quality. I hate the 32 year old christian thinking this country is out to get him just as much as I hate the 20 year old liberal idiot that thinks religion is something to scoff at. I hate the 78 year old congressman that doesn't believe in global warming just as much as I hate the 22 year old blonde that thinks the same thing. I hate a lot of things and a lot of people, and that drives my opinions and views.

This world can be better than that. You all can be better. You just don't want it.


Also I'm glad I can't be fit into a little box. I like to think my views are pretty hard to frame at times.

Letys put it like this. I don't want any of you sorry losers trying to raise my kids to whatever screwed standards you may have (I mean that in the best way possible). I'm sure this feeling is vice versa

I feel that unqualified parents that will fill their kids head with trash and thus create another generation of like minded people shouldn't get to raise their own children. I'm not for home schooling.

As an aside, that wasn't a blow to you as a parent. I have no idea how you raise your kids.

I hate some parts of humanity. Not an ethnicity or income bracket. Or even a religion or anything like that. I just hate the stupid ignorant little tools that are crushing this nation between their fat cheeto stained fingers. I hate the soccer moms that drive SUVs "for the safety". I hate the old mouth breathers that cry about chinese manufacturing because its "cheap" when I have never in my life bought a product that was american made that I thought held any sort of quality. I hate the 32 year old christian thinking this country is out to get him just as much as I hate the 20 year old liberal idiot that thinks religion is something to scoff at. I hate the 78 year old congressman that doesn't believe in global warming just as much as I hate the 22 year old blonde that thinks the same thing. I hate a lot of things and a lot of people, and that drives my opinions and views.

Also I'm glad I can't be fit into a little box. I like to think my views are pretty hard to frame at times.

Actually that puts you in a box pretty well.

Frazzled wrote:

I hate some parts of humanity. Not an ethnicity or income bracket. Or even a religion or anything like that. I just hate the stupid ignorant little tools that are crushing this nation between their fat cheeto stained fingers. I hate the soccer moms that drive SUVs "for the safety". I hate the old mouth breathers that cry about chinese manufacturing because its "cheap" when I have never in my life bought a product that was american made that I thought held any sort of quality. I hate the 32 year old christian thinking this country is out to get him just as much as I hate the 20 year old liberal idiot that thinks religion is something to scoff at. I hate the 78 year old congressman that doesn't believe in global warming just as much as I hate the 22 year old blonde that thinks the same thing. I hate a lot of things and a lot of people, and that drives my opinions and views.

Also I'm glad I can't be fit into a little box. I like to think my views are pretty hard to frame at times.

Actually that puts you in a box pretty well.

Which box? The only issue there really is that I believe in global warming. 98% of the scientific community is with me on that one though, so it's a pretty big box full of people that know a hell of a lot better than most.

gorgon wrote:

halonachos wrote:I do agree that each child should have equal access to the same materials(books, computers, writing devices, etc) however I do not agree that children should be brought up in the same ways exactly. The adversity makes people different and because of this difference there are added benefits. For example if no one on earth committed crime then why would we need a police force, or if no one was evil then why would we need a military? Each counteracts an aspect of humanity that we deem as evil, except they are necessary evils. We need evil so we can do good, yadda, yadda.

So...it's good that we have children brought up badly who commit crime and terrorism because that lets us have a police force and military?

Wow.

Precisely.

@ Shuma.

You're in a box now, you don't like hypocrites, slackers, people who don't work to better themselves, or idiots. Basicly you hate the entire human population my friend.

We need evil so we can do good

I don't think that is true at all.

If all "evil was magically wiped from the world it would still be possible to do good, like saving someone's life in an accident, or helping those still les well off than yourself. Or donating organs, blood etc etc.

You're in a box now, you don't like hypocrites, slackers, people who don't work to better themselves, or idiots. Basicly you hate the entire human population my friend.

Yeah. Pretty much. :(

halonachos wrote:

gorgon wrote:

halonachos wrote:I do agree that each child should have equal access to the same materials(books, computers, writing devices, etc) however I do not agree that children should be brought up in the same ways exactly. The adversity makes people different and because of this difference there are added benefits. For example if no one on earth committed crime then why would we need a police force, or if no one was evil then why would we need a military? Each counteracts an aspect of humanity that we deem as evil, except they are necessary evils. We need evil so we can do good, yadda, yadda.

So...it's good that we have children brought up badly who commit crime and terrorism because that lets us have a police force and military?

Wow.

Precisely.

In other words, you're being facetious. Because I've never met a single living soul who felt it was good to have people become victims, get hurt and/or die so we can spend enormous amounts of resources trying to prevent said problems.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

I hate some parts of humanity. Not an ethnicity or income bracket. Or even a religion or anything like that. I just hate the stupid ignorant little tools that are crushing this nation between their fat cheeto stained fingers. I hate the soccer moms that drive SUVs "for the safety". I hate the old mouth breathers that cry about chinese manufacturing because its "cheap" when I have never in my life bought a product that was american made that I thought held any sort of quality. I hate the 32 year old christian thinking this country is out to get him just as much as I hate the 20 year old liberal idiot that thinks religion is something to scoff at. I hate the 78 year old congressman that doesn't believe in global warming just as much as I hate the 22 year old blonde that thinks the same thing. I hate a lot of things and a lot of people, and that drives my opinions and views.

Also I'm glad I can't be fit into a little box. I like to think my views are pretty hard to frame at times.

Actually that puts you in a box pretty well.

We'll leave it at this: stereotypical college age. I could define it more but it doesn't come across well in typing and its not my intent.

I'm no better. Most people can be typed pretty easily, with some under current differences.



Which box? The only issue there really is that I believe in global warming. 98% of the scientific community is with me on that one though, so it's a pretty big box full of people that know a hell of a lot better than most.

ShumaGorath wrote:Yeah, I don't have the cash for continued education past the BA that I'm working towards now. As it is I can't even afford the final year unless I find some sort of rather incredible scholarships. I routinely make deans list and get that stupid little pin they send in the mail, and I routinely do well for myself. Maine doesn't even have the money to pave its roads, let alone send its children to good schools. I come from a single parent, 4 child household. I have no cosigner, no financially endowed family, and I have spent every last dime I've made over the last few years simply to be able to attend a school. Twenty years ago, when this state could afford it and when colleges were 50% less expensive I could have made this easy.

As for you saying its untrue, how about you tell me how? How about you sight some sort of statistic instead of telling me that "every tom, dick, and harry has a BA? Why don't you tell me why the cost of higher education has been raised past inflation every year for decades? Why don't you tell me why community colleges have seen thousand percent surges in application over the last few years? How about you explain the incredibly low level of degree holding citizens in my home state of maine, a state recovering (slowly) from what was once a thriving traditional untrained manufacturing economy?

What exactly do you do for your university? Because I work at mine, and post secondary education is what it always was. And it's not a "club".

Academia is very much a "club" in the general meaning of the word - a group of people who limit membership by certain desired characteristics and then operate very much within themselves. "The Ivory Tower." A Master's Degree is your calling card, the bare minimum one needs to apply for membership.

The cost of a BA/BS is utterly irrelevant to the fact that many more people than 30 years ago actually get one. Arguing that point is like arguing the sky is blue, i.e. I'm not willing to do so. Don't take my word for it, go do the research if you're interested.

It IS more expensive, much more expensive, than it used to be in the 1970's, but that may be due to the fact that more people are getting them. They're more a "basic" part of life for middle-class Americans than something extra one does, no doubt in large part due to our shift to a service/information economy. Thus, colleges and universities can charge more for them. Higher value of good, higher price for purchase. Simple economics.

A Bachelor's Degree is what a High School degree used to be, i.e. the bare minimum one needs to be eligible for a lot of jobs.

If you want to go for a Masters and cannot pay for it outright then take out Federal education loans for it. It's what I did, it's what my wife did, it's what my sister did, its what most of my friends with Masters Degrees did. Having a Masters opens doors for you and greatly increases your potential salary. It is worth the investment considering the interest rates on Stafford Loans are pathetically low and the repayment terms, including deferrals and forbearances, are ridiculously flexible. You get what you pay for.

You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about this, and from what you've said so far I suppose I can understand it...but you'll pardon me if I don't go any further into my private life than to say I teach a few courses a semester and also build courses for others, and have worked in academia for eight years now.

Cairnius wrote:

If you want to go for a Masters and cannot pay for it outright then take out Federal education loans for it. It's what I did, it's what my wife did, it's what my sister did, its what most of my friends with Masters Degrees did. Having a Masters opens doors for you and greatly increases your potential salary. It is worth the investment considering the interest rates on Stafford Loans are pathetically low and the repayment terms, including deferrals and forbearances, are ridiculously flexible.

Words of widsom Cairnie. You don't need a BA to make lots of money and be successful. But if you're in a career that requires a college (university to you Brits) degree, then getting a masters is the way to go.

Unless you're like my friend who took nine years. The state of California would have a rranged his execution if he tried for a masters...