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Nah, space marines have it easy enough as gw's little baby boys, terminators dont need a buff, mabye your tactica needs a buff =/.

No two wounds, it would be brokenly powerful, and definitely not t5, theyre still space marines, theyre not more enhanced than regular marines, theyre just sissies who dont feel safe unless they have a tanks hull around them ....

Like i said give em fnp, but 2 wounds would be ridiculous, people say nobz are equivalent and thats somewhat true, minus the whole wearing tshirts thing with bs2, and if you want that 2+/5+ you get shafted with slow and purposeful and cost waaaay more equivalently than termys.

tldr; t5/2w is just op.

kill dem stunties wrote:Nah, space marines have it easy enough as gw's little baby boys, terminators dont need a buff, mabye your tactica needs a buff =/.

Was that your special way of saying "USE TACTICS!", because, if so, there's a website you should visit. You'd fit in better there.

kill dem stunties wrote:No two wounds, it would be brokenly powerful

Don't know how many times I'm going to have to say this in this thread, but I'll say it again:

We have been playing Terminators as T4(5) W2 for over half a decade now. They are not broken. They are not overpowered. They are viable.

I'm with HBMC as log as Oblitz get T4(6) and W3 to make up for it

Oblits in our rules are just straight T5 (they way they were in the 2nd 3rd Ed Codex until Pete Haines decided it was a "mistake"). T5 W3 Sv2+/5+(I).

The scary things are Nurgle Terminators in our rules - T4(6) W2, or the Tzeentchian ones that are T4(5) W3!!!

Those Oblitz make a lot more sense. Literally EVERYONE I play who doesn't also plays Chaos asks their toughness and says "Oh, they're not T5?" The models just look that way.

Keep in mind that our Oblits are still 0-1 per army (unit of 1-3) in our rules - you can't bring 9 of the things unless you're playing Iron Warriors - although the good thing is they are split up into 3 different units rather than a single unit of 1-3. To balance the fact that having three separate Oblits can be quite dangerous (no bleed-over on wounds, target 3 units a turn), they're not a scoring unit ever.

Some of you might be thinking "But only Troops are scoring?". Our rules use the Scoring system that made sense (3rd Ed) as opposed to an arbitrary system that makes no sense (4th Ed) or a flying rodent gak insane system that makes even less ense (5th Ed).

Forgive me for my ignorance. I have not read any of this thread apart from the first post....
It raised something in my mind that has been bothering me for a while......
Assault CC Terminators are broken.
They are just sooooooo good now, it's not worth buying any other Army. (but i don't like them!) A 2+ Save Then a 3+ I Save is just ridiculous! I have so much trouble killing them. Why, oh why don't Chaos guys get this upgrade?
Or at least some Chaos Lighting claw assault troops!

Yes, the 3+(I) save is absurd. Being able to shrug off 66% of everything anyone throws at you is just insane. But the reasons they did it were obvious.

In 4th Ed the Assault Cannon was king. Everyone fielded multiple 6-man Termy units with 2 Assault Cannons. GW sold lots of Terminators, and online bitz services sold lots of over-priced Assault Cannons. 5th Ed comes along, GW grab that balance pendulum as hard as they can and heave it with the might of the Emperor, throwing it in the complete opposite direction.

Instantly 6-man Termy Squads w/2 Assault Cannons are illegal. Terminator Command Squads are instantly illegal. Rending is heavily nerfed. And Assault Terminators, something nobody bought or used in 4th as Assault Cannons were just so good, get a major buff thanks to the 3+(I) save Storm Shields. No everyone goes out and buy's Assault Terminators.

Through this GW kills two birds with one stone:

1. They start having people buy a kit that got ignored when it first came out.
2. They undercut online bitz sellers as the Assault Terminator box contains enough Storm Shields for everyone, whereas before Assault Cannons had to be bought elsewhere.

Genius.

I just think they need an extra WS, for no points increase. They have weaknesses to certain weapon types that should remain - make them no tougher [because then chaos terminators of nurgle become T6, do you really want that?], just deadlier and more worthwhile.

And of course you are all talking about changing both imperial AND chaos terminators, right? ...RIGHT?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Klueless wrote:
Or at least some Chaos Lighting claw assault troops!

Chaos can have lightning claw terminators.

What's wrong with T4(6) Terminators? They still die straight away to Lascannons and, more importantly, S8 powerfists, and it just makes them good tar-pits against lesser things.

I have a Death Guard army. Another friend of mine uses Nurgle Terminators almost every time he takes Terminators. They're always T4(6) W2 in our rules and they're not overpowered. They're also usually around 55-points each (if not more) when all is said and done, so bringing a unit of 7 is a big investment and usually your army revolves around them.

JEB_Stuart wrote:I really like your suggestions for the different stats for Termies. Yeah, I agree that mine were way big, but yours are fair and they more accurately represent the Termie background. Terminators should be able to go toe to toe with anything up to a MC, Dread, WB, etc. and at least stand a fighting chance. As is right now, GSs with rending can take out an entire Terminator squad, if they are lucky enough, before the Termies can even so much as spit back. I am constantly frustrated with terminators being so expensive, yet dying so easily in comparison to what they should be.

geanstealers are supposed to beat terminators silly, It has always been so... Haven't you ever played space hulk? they were 3 times more effective than terminators in close combat. I agree that they should be more resiliant to small arms fire, and I find it strange that terminators arn't trained to not take off their helmets when the visual interferance blinding them is clearly caused by lasgun fire.

Also on the subject of plasma v melta, the writers of ther IG codex put plasmas at 5 pts more expensive than meltas, just begging pepole to not take them.

That's just GW attempting to rebalance the power of Plasma Guns... in 3rd Edition. GW sometimes forgets that a problem in one edition isn't a problem two or even one edition changes later, so their change to Plasma Guns was to compensate for perceived power, not actual power.

I'm sure if it was 3rd Ed again it would make sense. But it's 5th Ed, and the change just highlights what a complete bunch of morons they all are.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Terminator Squad - 45 points/model.
WS4 BS4 S4 T4(5) W2 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv2+/5+

That's the way we've been using them for over 5 years now. They work wonders, and the weakness of Terminators (dying to small arms fire like Lasguns and ShuriCats) is almost completely negated whilst they still die instantly to S8+ weapons (which they should do).

In fact, what always bothers me when playing Termies is their toughness since they are wounded with the same stats as power armored Marines.
The increase of toughness, T4(5), would remedy this.

kill dem stunties wrote:no way, no s5/t5, and definitely no two wounds. Theyre not nobz lol

They're wearing tank armor stronger than the tank armor their less-experienced friends wear. Why not two wounds?

Rico...

Or you could bring back ASM for Warhammer, and then give the Terminators their 3+ save on 2d6 again.

If Terminators become T4(5) and get 2 wounds, I think that they should get a points increase, but not a serious points increase. 55 points would be good I think.

@The half brother of Marneus Calgar-
Does your ruleset use AP?

I like the toughness increase more then the multiple wounds (and accompanying allocation shenanigans), but I'd also like to see them be tougher then bikes, so perhaps 4(6) rather then 4(5), puts them about as tough as Tyrant Guard, and makes it tough for weaker troops to overcome them through forceing numerous saves (and also helps protect them from weak strength but low AP/power weapon attacks).

Or to wander back to something akin to the 2nd ed mechanic they could have a re-rollable 3+ save, that AP>3 only gets rid of the re-roll like the movie marines.

Jack

Why should Termies get a stat increase? They are still humans! Nothing special about them except that they are in better armour then regular marines. This is already represented with the 2+/3+ inv save they can get.

They dont need more wounds, and they dont need a T increase and they for sure dont need no FNP.

Actually, if you want to be technical, Terminators (Just Like Space Marines) are super human. It fits with the fluff better to give them slightly better stats because they are amazing even compared to regular marines. And their armor really shouldn't be simply labeled as just "better" than power armor. Remember, power armor is almost as strong as a tank's, and termie armor is leagues beyond that. The saves you were referencing only apply to assault termies, not shoooty termies. Maybe the don't need FNP, but the extra wound and T point are worthy suggestion.

Yeah, and what about Chaos termies? Or Oblits?
They should be even stronger then regular SM termies.

What then?

Why should Chaos Termies be even stronger? They should be equal to regular terminators and get the bonus from their chosen god on top of that. Also, Oblits are still stronger. Can Termies morph any weapon they need? No. Are they as versatile? Definitely not.

Cause Chaos has been fighting longer then that SM Termi has been alive... and they sold their soul to a real god..

Just a few things that come to mind.

I still find it sad that someone who sold their soul to a chaos god still cant get as good a Inv save as a regular space marine termi with common wargear.

jp400 wrote:Cause Chaos has been fighting longer then that SM Termi has been alive... and they sold their soul to a real god..

Or they went renegade after the Badab war, or its only been 20 years since the Siege of Terra due to time issues in the Warp or...

My point being that they can very well be less experienced then their loyalist opposition so its simpler to leave them all comparable.

Jack

I think that the terminators background should get them some tougher stats like maybe WS 5 and BS 5. But I think that nobz do deserve more wound. They are describes as much bigger, much stronger orks, while terminators aren't describes as bigger and stronger than other marines.

jp400 wrote:... and they sold their soul to a real god..

I know of only one way to finish this debate...and I think Emperor's Faithful knows how to solve this...
KILL THE HERETIC!!!








And just to be safe...PURGE THE UNCLEAN!

LOL!

Tau Battlesuits would be precedence for models gaining wounds (and Toughness, for that matter) due to extremely large/bulky armor.

Just to clarify what all the various Terminator types in our rules end up looking like:

Loyalist Terminator:
WS4 BS4 S4 T4(5) W2 I4 A2 Ld9 Sv2+/5+(I)

Loyalist Terminator Sergeant:
WS5 BS5 S4 T4(5) W2 I4 A3 Ld9 Sv2+/5+(I)

Chosen Terminator:
WS5 BS5 S4 T4(5) W2 I4 A2+1 Ld10 Sv2+/5+(I)

Chosen Terminator Champion:
WS5 BS5 S4 T4(5) W2 I4 A3+1 Ld10 Sv2+/5+(I)

Khornate Chosen Terminator:
WS6 BS5 S4 T4(5) W2 I4 A3+1 Ld10 Sv2+/5+(I)

Khornate Chosen Terminator Champion:
WS6 BS5 S4 T4(5) W2 I4 A4+1 Ld10 Sv2+/5+(I)

Nurglesque Chosen Terminator:
WS5 BS5 S4 T4(6) W2 I4 A2+1 Ld10 Sv2+/5+(I)

Nurglesque Chosen Terminator Champion:
WS5 BS5 S4 T4(6) W2 I4 A3+1 Ld10 Sv2+/5+(I)

Tzeentchian Chosen Terminator:
WS3 BS3 S4 T4(5) W3 I4 A2+1 Ld10 Sv2+/5+(I)

Tzeentchian Chosen Terminator Champion:
WS5 BS5 S4 T4(5) W3 I4 A3+1 Ld10 Sv2+/5+(I)

Obliterators:
WS4 BS4 S5 T5 W3 I4 A2+1 Ld10 Sv2+/4+(I)

Slaanesh get no stat upgrades from the MoS, so they're not included.

The interesting thing is the comparison between Loyalist Termies and Chosen. I've costed them both at 45 points. The differences:

Loyalist vs Traitor:

WS/BS4 vs WS/BS5
Storm Bolter (R36 S4 AP5 Assault 2/Twin-Linked) vs Combi-Bolter (R36 S4 AP5 Rapid Fire/Twin Linked)
Power Fist vs Power Weapon
True Grit vs +1 Attack
ATSKNF vs Ld10

Khornate and Tzeentchain Terminators are Fearless, Nurglesque and Slaaneshi Terminators are Stubborn. Oblits are twice the price of Terminators, are Fearless, S&P, can Deep Strike and have the usual Body-Weapons.

Vladsimpaler wrote:@The half brother of Marneus Calgar-
Does your ruleset use AP?

Indeed it does, with the slight modification of a rule called "High Impact" that is sort of a 'patch' for vagaries of the AP system (like how an Autocannon can destroy a Chimera but bounces off a Marine's armour). Essentially weapons that have High Impact as a special rule (Assault Cannons, Inferno Cannons, Krak Grenades, Heavy Close Combat weapons like Genestealer Claws and Khornate Chainaxes) have a -1 Modifier to the target's armour save, and all weapons S7 (or 8... one of the two) or above have High Impact automatically. Nothing more fancy than that, and it means weapons that are very effective against one armour type (say Krak Missiles vs MEQs) don't suddenly drop off and become useless against the next armour save up from that (ie. Sv2+ Terminators). In our rules, a Krak Missile, on the virtue of it being S8, makes a Terminator take a save on a 3+.

speedfreak wrote:I think that the terminators background should get them some tougher stats like maybe WS 5 and BS 5.

This would also be nice (also BS5 for Sternguard and WS5 for Vanguard perhaps) as marine veterans are, in many ways, less impressive then IG veterans.

Letting shooty Terminators have the fancy Sternguard Ammo (modified to make them appropriate for Stormbolters) would help them compete in the new TH/SS environment as well.

Jack

i have been thinking about creating some alternate rules for Terminators just for fun and have been toying with the idea of turning them into a squadron of 5 walkers with an AV of 12 all around (basically mini dreadnoughts, which fluffwise is what they are) with maybe something that allows them to ignore shaken / stunned. of course they we need a serious point adjustment. any suggestions?

So they die to Immobilisation?

No. Not a good idea.