Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:then assigned a slightly better save (but otherwise the same profile as Marines) to Terminators.

H.B.M.C. wrote: (Battlecannon wipes out a unit of Marines yet Terminators hardly notice it - that sort've thing).

??

The difference between 3+ and 2+ is huge. Especially with the added 5++.

twelve wounds AP 6-4
vs 3+ = 4 casualties
vs 2+ = 2 casualties

twelve wounds AP 3
vs 3+ = 12 casualties
vs 2+ = 2 casualties

twelve wounds AP2-1
vs 3+ = 12 casualties
vs 5++ = 8 casualties

So, terminator armour is twice as good as power armour. Against exceptionally powerful, non-anti tank weaponry it's 6x as good. Against anti-tank or plasma it's 1.5x better.

That's pretty damn good for 2.5x the cost of marine considering you also get:
a powerfist,
a stormbolter,
the option to deepstrike,
the option to take a land raider dedicated transport,
2 attacks basic
relentless.

The problem with terminators is that they're a massive target. Making them stronger just paints a bigger bullseye on them.

Everyone has different opinions about terms. But I think a number of there stats should change. Tactical drednaught armor is very cumbersum as stated in every discription of itself. I say. -1 Int +1 S +1 T is in order. As for the standard 2+ save its nice. The standard 5+ is a gimic to make Termie lovers stop asking for more. I say. Make terms at least 50 points and actaully kick ass instead of what we get now - A 2+ save marine with a powerfist. I Like this.

ws 4 bs4 s5 t5 w1 int 3 a2 ld9 sv2+ 4+ inv
cost 50 points.

Yeah, 'cause the 'penalty' of Init 3 sure means a whole hell of a lot when you've got a Power fist.

And while this...

Everyone has different opinions about terms.

... is true, few of those opinions are backed up by 5+ years of play-testing.

Mine are.

I've been playing marines for a long time. You just can't bring terms vs some armies, unless "now" they are assault terms (hanging 40 points on a 5+ inv is asking to lose 40 points) - Even then its a slow CC sqaud with no guns (3+inv) but really not as effective as regular terms and cant even be considered a killer. They arent that hard to kill. Theres all together too much support for terms being stronger even if they cost more.

fluff wise, the terminators should be the hardest single units to kill (not including HQ). In the novels armies would send the terminators up to just march through their fire. They are SLOW heavy infantry .Here is my revision of the current terminator.

Regular termie
WS BS S T I W A S
4 5 4 5 4 1 2 2+ (5+ invul)

Special rules:
Feel no pain, SLOW AND PURPOSEFUL, TSKNF, deep strike
Points= 45
Also give them the ability to take combi weapons.
Can buy tank hunter ability for +1 PPM

Assault marine

WS BS S T I W A S
5 4 4 5 5 1 3 2+ (5+)

Special rules:
TSKNF, deep strike, etc.
points= 45
Can buy furious charge for +3 points a model.

I choose to change the assault termies so it could compensate for maybe a more mobile armor. more speed with I of 5, but not as survivable as the walking tanks. Maybe the furious charge is too much...maybe?

I am not going to take any sides on this or make any comment towards what H.B.M.C. or anyone against him or with him.

I will say this though... I might get Flogged for it <_<'

This is why I stick with the "House Rule" Theory, if everyone knows the base rules and they would like to have some sort of change because they would like it or they just feel that is necessary. I feel that if everyone is for it then Damn, you should go for it. If you like a rule in 5th edition but you like to play Second Edition and you feel that you could make an even transition to the rule into Second and everyone is fore it with no Ill feeling. Then it should be so. Same would go in the opposite direction, if you liked the fact that terminators have a 3+ on 2D6 from Second edition and you think you could mesh it into 5th then have at it. If you want to modify a stat then, instead of making an argument of the minds and, " My way is better than your way" it should be done. Another way of going is, "don't knock it till you try it" do a test game and see if it works. If I would have to put my thoughts into this, I like the idea of a higher Toughness and a 2 wounds. Everything dies the same against a Lascannon, or a Krak Missile, or Multi-Melta. I personally play Second Edition, with a house rule set for DIY Space Marine Chapters, Races, and Chaos Legions. I feel that the Terminators are Pretty Well balanced there and they play well against others, I have a 6 man Howling Banshee squad hit my Termy Lord with 76 Attacks... Damn Banshee Masks... he killed them second turn... thank god for the Mark of Khorn and a +2 Save on 2D6 and a +3 Invulnerable conversion Field XD

HOWEVER, I have lost my point in this comment and, A.D.D. "OOO shinny Thing"

Actually it's really bothered me how easy to kill my Deathwing are.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Terminator 53 PPM
Squad Size: 3-10
Wargear: Power Fist, Storm Bolter, Terminator Armor.
WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 4
T: 4(5)
W: 2
I: 4
A: 2
LD: 9
SV: 2+/5++

Special Rules:

Might of Legends: Terminators wielding a power fist, chain fist, or thunder-hammer strikes at -1 their normal initiative but do not have to strike last.

Heroes of the Chapter: The squad may take one of the following USR's at the points cost of +2 PPM: Furius Charge, Tank Hunters, Preferred Enemy (works against any enemy type)

May replace Terminator Armour Storm Bolter with Combi Weapon, Lighting Claw, Power Fist, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Chainfist.

May replace Terminator Armour Power Fist with Lighting Claw, Power Weapon, Thunder Hammer, Storm Shield, Chainfist.

- You can't replace both the Storm Bolter and the Powerfist with the same option. AKA you can't have 2x Thunder Hammers.

Up to two terminators may take one of the following at the appropriate point cost, the AC and HF replace the Storm Bolter: Cyclone Missile Launcher (+15); Assault Cannon(+20); Heavy Flamer(+5)

Terminators can take one of the following as a dedicated transport: LRC, LRR, LR at the appropriate points cost in the Heavy Support section.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This I think adds a bit more to the Terminators. Now, they are more expensive, which is just because of the STR, T and Wound bonus they receive and the ability to have multiple weapons in the squad.

They aren't eternal warriors so they can still be ID, but they won't die to small arms fire as much! MM's etc that would be considered anti-terminators weapons are still quite effective though and will still put a dent in the squad.

Their ability to attack with PF at -1 initiative I think is in order in my opinion. It justifies them truly and allows the terminators to really stand out.

Just giving terminators FNP would be adequate IMO for hording off small arms fire (and taking off a wound)

HMBC also has a great idea for them!

@ EzeKK- You -do- realize that this is just background, right? And that background has little meaning in the game? Why, if it did, Space Marines could kill 5000 Dark Eldar and then go kill all the Chaos gods and then still have time to drink tea.

However, of course, if fluff is the end all be all, then Harlequins should be this and get a couple of points increased.


WS:6 BS:4 S:4 T:3 W:1 I:8 A:4 LD:10 SV:--/2++

Weapons: Shuriken Pistol, Harlequin's Fist
Wargear: Holo Suit, Flip Belt

Abilities:
Fleet of Foot
Harlequin's Kiss: Rending. Is rending on a to hit roll of 6.

Eh, maybe 30 points each. Nothing big, right? It's just fluff!

Vladsimpaler wrote:@ EzeKK- You -do- realize that this is just background, right? And that background has little meaning in the game? Why, if it did, Space Marines could kill 5000 Dark Eldar and then go kill all the Chaos gods and then still have time to drink tea.

However, of course, if fluff is the end all be all, then Harlequins should be this and get a couple of points increased.


WS:6 BS:4 S:4 T:3 W:1 I:8 A:4 LD:10 SV:--/2++

Weapons: Shuriken Pistol, Harlequin's Fist
Wargear: Holo Suit, Flip Belt

Abilities:
Fleet of Foot
Harlequin's Kiss: Rending. Is rending on a to hit roll of 6.

Eh, maybe 30 points each. Nothing big, right? It's just fluff!

Hah! Sarcasm!

If you really want me to rework it I can and talk about how they are sub-par when compared to a normal space marine. For being 2 1/3 ish more than a space marine they can't really pull there weight.

Fluff isn't the be all to end all but it is what the game is BASED off of. If spacemarines in fluff are tough and have T3 (like a guardsmen) does this make sense? No, they are smurfs the emperorz uber warriors! Harlies, they are space clowns in fluff and fast etc. so thats how they play! They get fleet and can avoid stuff so they get special rules.

Terminators are indestructable monstrosities yet they play like very akin to normal marines with a slight chance of living better. Yes, I love their special weapons option and yeah I think that my adaptation was a bit to much, but look at the Lone Wolves of space wolfs. Now THAT is a good representative of a very powerful warrior.

In FLUFF terminators don't carry Multi-Meltas do they? So they based the terminators off of fluff and DIDN'T allows them to carry them into battle! At the same time in Fluff terminators are walking gods, and they aren't in the game. This proves that GW will stick to fluff, but doesn't strictly adhere to it.

See the point? All i'm saying is that they are suppose to be better than normal marines, so they should be in more ways than 2+ save and some special weapons! Also, in game terms, look at plauge marines. They are inexpensive, troops, and have T(5) and FNP. Damn. Giving terminators some updates isn't that far of a stretch when you look at those guys.

Being in HMBC's group (and playing the most terminators I think out of most people on this site) I have very strong feelings that W2 is the only way that the fragility ratio (Points for survivability vs potential damage output) can be maintained.

I play deathwing (Have at least 100 regular marine terminators) and almost double that with chaos ones.

I would never take a terminator (unless a storm shield version) in the current rules. The revisited rules are the best ruleset I have played with. I joined the group much later in the process (but it was immediately more obvious that balance between rules and also between units and codecies had been done better than the inter version points GW is forced to output)


That's the background...



Now,
Termies cost 3 times the points of marines,
in HTH they do that much more damage.

Problem currently survive significantly less than this. Also every wound takes out a special weapon and/or power fist.

Also,
I have over 100 Nobs, if any one thinks that a nob (unarmoured) is Tougher and can take more damage than a terminator, I would totally disagree.

There is a reason that the Nobs are SOOO much less points (yet still 2 wounds, funny that).



Oh,
BTW, Str 7 in our rules gives High Impact (-1 to armour saves like in fantasy), hence autocannons getting it.

This is also a reason why our W2 T4(5) termies work as the heavy weaponry makes them marine armour (and really heavy just kill them instantly),

What normally kills terminators in our rules is big guns, not lascannons and bolters (and guardsmen in hth combat!!)

Also,
as HBMC has stated, we REALLY have been playing them this way for 5 years, it works for us (and our group are Nazi on making sure things are balanced!!)

EzeKK wrote:

Hah! Sarcasm!

If you really want me to rework it I can and talk about how they are sub-par when compared to a normal space marine. For being 2 1/3 ish more than a space marine they can't really pull there weight.

This is also considering the fact that Space Marines are a couple of points underpriced.

Fluff isn't the be all to end all but it is what the game is BASED off of. If spacemarines in fluff are tough and have T3 (like a guardsmen) does this make sense? No, they are smurfs the emperorz uber warriors! Harlies, they are space clowns in fluff and fast etc. so thats how they play! They get fleet and can avoid stuff so they get special rules.

Space Marines used to be T3 and had a 4+ save. What now? Harlequins in background are ridiculously fast. And hard to hit. But they only have a 5+ invulnerable? Talk about lame!

Terminators are indestructable monstrosities yet they play like very akin to normal marines with a slight chance of living better. Yes, I love their special weapons option and yeah I think that my adaptation was a bit to much, but look at the Lone Wolves of space wolfs. Now THAT is a good representative of a very powerful warrior.

In FLUFF terminators don't carry Multi-Meltas do they? So they based the terminators off of fluff and DIDN'T allows them to carry them into battle! At the same time in Fluff terminators are walking gods, and they aren't in the game. This proves that GW will stick to fluff, but doesn't strictly adhere to it.

See the point? All i'm saying is that they are suppose to be better than normal marines, so they should be in more ways than 2+ save and some special weapons! Also, in game terms, look at plauge marines. They are inexpensive, troops, and have T(5) and FNP. Damn. Giving terminators some updates isn't that far of a stretch when you look at those guys.

See, I find it funny that you make such a big deal about Terminators sucking. As someone who formerly played Guard (before the super crappy new codex but that's another story) and who now plays Eldar (and may or may not use a Khornate army using SW in the future) I find your complaints hilarious. I mean, your guys can take tons of different weapons, oh and let's not forget they still have all 4's in their stats with a 2+/5++.

I could see giving them 2 Wounds, but not increased toughness or anything of the like unless their points were drastically increased.

Or you could give them T4(5) W2 with a 2+/6++.

Then you could keep them at oh, say 45 something points.

And I'm pretty sure that SOMEWHERE in the background a Terminator carries a multi-melta.

Let's also not forget that the Space Wolves codex is the product of Phil Kelly who tends to overpower EVERYTHING he lays his hands on. Not just the SW.

Is this thread really about making terminators powerful enough to just march across the field without needing a transport?

In my mind that's what seems to be what's being asked for in this thread.

Perhaps I've not had the same misfortune in using terminators in general as some others have, but having played quite a bit against both deathwing terminators and standard SM terminators I really haven't found them lacking in this eddition.

With my most recent 2500 pt game I was up against a friend of mine where he had 2 LRs packed with termies. They got in, did around their points worth of damage and were eventually wiped out by enough firepower to choke a horse, but I thought the whole idea was to get one's points worth out of a unit on a regular basis to consider it balanced, not kill 2-3 times their points value every game.

I really think it's fair when a group of termies that get dropped out of their LR and slaughter something in CC will lose a couple when 150 flashlight dice are thrown at them. They may be clad in vehicle class armor but it still has joints and lenses in their helmets which are always weaker than an actual tank.

While two wounds might be an acceptable way to increase their difficulty to kill I really don't think the toughness should be increased. Once you get to the toughness it's not about the thickness of the armor but about the toughness of the person inside and I'm sorry but unless you're a very special marine they all have t4. The armor save is what's supposed to represent the quality of their armor, not the toughness.

I suppose that was a rather long way to arrive at that conclusion but it's late and I'm tired

I think the main thing that bugs most players, me included, is that Termies are so much more expensive then regular marines, and yet they don't really do that much more. They get a slightly better armor save and a crappy invuln. They can be a huge point sink and and not pay off that much.

JEB_Stuart wrote:I think the main thing that bugs most players, me included, is that Termies are so much more expensive then regular marines, and yet they don't really do that much more. They get a slightly better armor save and a crappy invuln. They can be a huge point sink and and not pay off that much.

Agreed, That is what I hated when they made the AP System, they killed the Terminator Armor Save... +5 Invuln is just ridiculously stupid at least make it a +3 or +4 invuln, because a 2D6 save like 2nd Edition would not make sense in 3/4/5 Edition,

WAIT Epiphany, maybe you could use the 2D6 Save with the AP system if you just use it in the sense that you take the Highest Roll. and you could keep the +5 Invuln

I like HBMC's idea, but in all honesty terminators are just big meat shields (especially the th/ss type). right now they take a lot of the small arms fire that could be directed at fragiler squads. Which allows the rest of your army to do their job with out having to worrying about catching the 150 first rank fire second rank fire lasgun shots to the face (or other nonguard army's equivalent).

Although I do find it funny that sm uses their most expensive infantry as meat shields (at least in my opinion where as other armies use their cheapest guys i.e. guardsmen, guardians, etc.)

Having read through this thread and having played since 2nd edition (skipped 3rd though, played 2nd with house rules) I thought I'd add my thoughts.

I pulled out my old rulebooks and wrote down some numbers, basically in 2nd ed a terminator wasn't likely to die to light arms fire, you'd fail 1 out of 12 saves by rolling 2 or 3 on 2d6 (most light weapons had -1 save modifier). Personally I'm just as scared of rolling 4+ on 2d6 (damn snakeeyes) as 2+ on 1d6. You're going to roll ones once in a while, period, all statistics aside. Now, against lascannons you'd be saving on 9+ on 2d6 in 2nd ed, you'd fail 26 out of 36 saves, or 'bout 72%. Compare that with failing 4 out of 6 with 5+ invulnerable save, comes out to failing only 67% of the time. So, die easier to light arms fire, withstand heavy arms more. Combine this with the fact that in 2nd edition you had weapons of all save modifiers inbetween light arms and heavy arms, you'd only fail 1/12 against lasguns or bolters, but you'd fail 10/36 or 28% against autocannons or assault cannons. Compared to the standard ~17% failure rate in 5th ed.

Not to mention that twinlinked in 2nd ed fired twice the shots and not a reroll to hit like in 4th/5th, sustained fire weapons (9 shots from a S8 assault cannon anyone?) also add to more heavy fire on the battlefield, taking down the terminators' survivability even more. I had a sentinel with twinlinked multilaser, 0-18 shots, I once fired 16 shots into an enemy squad, but that's another story.

As far as points go, looking over my codexes terminators have been about twice as expensive as tactical marines since 2nd edition.

My pet peeve regarding terminators? Well, not only regarding terminators, but I really dislike the nerfing of the assault cannon. It's been a beloved tool of destruction for so long that S6 is just wrong. Even with rending it's still meh. I mean sure, my assault cannons do more than my lascannons (which are just cursed), still, I miss the sustained fire dice, the risk of jams and the joy of spraying out 8-9 shots at S8 and a bucketload of penetration. When it comes to terminators, my main peeve is the reduction of heavy weapons. Two assault cannons on 5 guys was just so extremely cool. One in five? With S6? I haven't used my terminators once in 5th ed. Mainly because I built a box of 5 as a terminator command squad with 2 assault cannons for 4th ed, and simply don't have enough guys to make a normal squad. If they're going to stick to just one assault cannon per squad they could at least tweak it back up to S8.

As for the whole discussion on stat revisions, I quite like the sound of BS 5 for shooty termies, WS 5 for close combat termies. Not to mention adding feel no pain to counter the low survivability vs light arms fire/weak CC attacks.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, just my thoughts on the matter.