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phillosmaster wrote:

Timmah wrote:

PipeAlley wrote:

Timmah wrote:

Oh and deffrollas don't work on vehicles...

My FLGS has always allowed DeffRollas against vehicles since day one and of course at 'Ard Boyz as did most stores did nationwide.

Dang, I wish my FLGS let me cheat with my army.

Ok gais, this game all my marines save on 2+ and their weapons are str 6, ap1...k?...gais?

So how many players, tournie organizers, FLGS runners, and GW employees are cheaters? It is a debatable topic and not a definitive as you suggest. You ever read Catcher In The Rye Timmah? Calling everyone a cheater is only going to alienate you.

I really don't mind being called a cheater as much as the fact that the OP who asked "How do I destroy opp vehicles" is the one saying it and just outright and rudely rejecting the answer he asked for. Makes me laugh.

Yeah that made me laugh too.

Some poeple are just mad that GW ruled that Deffrollas can Ram for 'Ard Boys.

The wording of Deffrolas is such athat many people interpret that they can Ram (because of the phase "ramming is a special type of tank shock"). Other people see Rollas as never being intended to Ram, since Ramming did not exist when the Ork codex is written.

Unfortunately, GW has made two conflicting ruling on the matter...the UK GT said that Rollas cannot Ram, while 'Ard Boys said that they can.

This will never be resolved until GW makes an official ruling, in writing. Until then, each store/tourney will have to make their own call.

Calling people cheaters for playing by the most current GW ruling ('Ard Boys) is a good way to get hit with the banhammer, not to mention that it is just plain rude.

Cheating implies some sort of sinister intent, which would clearly never be the case in any kind of 40k milieu. I don't think that people who mis-play the Deff Rolla are stupid either.

After all, it's not the case of "evil or stupid", as reasonable people can disagree. What is disingenuous is offering the option of the Deff Rolla as if the matter of the Deff Rolla is not disputed.

If Timmah is asking for help figuring out how to handle opposing armour, then it's reasonable to assume that he wants to know what kind of undisputed tactical options he has available, rather than how some people might play a disputed rule.

Mind you, the sportsmanlike thing to do in the case of a disputed rule is to play to the least advantage. That means if a rule is disputed, you play the version which gives the least advantage to whoever can use the rule.

Some Ork players argue that the Deff Rolla should be played as affecting vehicles during Rams, as well as infantry during Tank Shocks and Rams, as otherwise they are at a gross disadvantage.

I think there are strong reasons for disagreeing with this position, given the amount of anti-vehicle vehicle wargear that the Orks have access to, all of which the Deff Rolla invalidates if it works against vehicles.

Orks have a dedicated anti-tank unit in the form of Tankbustas, who have a 24" range (30" 'effective range', given that they must move towards enemy vehicles), tankbustas bombs for close combat, and squigs for splitting fire. And that's if we ignore Fast Attack choices like Buggies.

A strategy of splitting the Ork Elite choices between one unit of Lootas and two units of Tank Bustas seems ideal to me for smashing both light and heavy enemy tanks, particularly if squadrons.

Take a Warboss for the Battlewagon-riding Troop Mega Armoured Nobz, a Mekboy for the Kustom Force Field, and three Heavy Support Battlewagons with Zzap Gunz. Stick the Tank Bustas and Lootas in the Battlewagons, and have the Boyz follow up in Trukks and Buggies.

This is moreso a strategy than a tactic, as it spams the number of armour threats, and every Ork player knows the importance of spamming everything so that stuff happens when things get lucky. But the tactics are pretty simple: Start the Lootas in the centre, with the Nob Battlewagon, going after enemy Troop transports, while the Tank Bustas start on both flanks, accompanied by the Buggies to go after weaker side armour, and have the main horde of Trukks and whatnot follow the Nobz down the middle, like any self-respecting Ork would anyways.

The enemy can go after your Tank Bustas, but then they don't have as much to go after your main force hiding in the Force Field bubble and behind the Nob Battlewagon's AV14 front. Don't be afraid to advance slowly so that you get the Zzap Gun and Rokkit fire from the Battlewagons, Trukks, and Buggies to soften up the enemy. In T2 or T3, depending, call upon the Waaagh! and make the assault from all sides.

I agree Nurglitch, which is why I usually don't depend on a deff roller ruling. I also agree about tankbustas. I was arguing the virtue of taking tankbustas in a vehicle heavy environment in another tactics thread. It makes me sad that so many people pass them up in their lists and then just complain about ork anit armor. I think most people just don't understand how to effectively use them with their glory hog rule.

Nurglitch wrote:Cheating implies some sort of sinister intent, which would clearly never be the case in any kind of 40k milieu. I don't think that people who mis-play the Deff Rolla are stupid either.

After all, it's not the case of "evil or stupid", as reasonable people can disagree. What is disingenuous is offering the option of the Deff Rolla as if the matter of the Deff Rolla is not disputed.

If Timmah is asking for help figuring out how to handle opposing armour, then it's reasonable to assume that he wants to know what kind of undisputed tactical options he has available, rather than how some people might play a disputed rule.

Mind you, the sportsmanlike thing to do in the case of a disputed rule is to play to the least advantage. That means if a rule is disputed, you play the version which gives the least advantage to whoever can use the rule.

Some Ork players argue that the Deff Rolla should be played as affecting vehicles during Rams, as well as infantry during Tank Shocks and Rams, as otherwise they are at a gross disadvantage.

The matter of the DeffaRolla IS undisputed at my FLGS so there is no disingenuousocity involved at all! I cleary stated in my post it was for my store from day one as well as most places >50% for 'Ard Boyz. I've never heard of or read of an Ork playing making any claim on rules based on whether it is an advantage. The rule was written BEFORE 5th, true but it was written close enough to 5th that the authors knew what they were writting.

Sure, but the fact is that Timmah doesn't play at your store, and the matter of the Deff Rolla is disputed in the greater community. Trying to pass off your little corner of the world as the world is, as I said, disingenuous where advice is concerned.

As for whether you think your interpretation of the rule is justified, it is irrelevant in this forum. In this forum you acknowledge that the rules-basis for a tactic is disputed, and move on; you don't argue that your interpretation is the right one, or that is how you and your little corner of the world plays it. That sort of thing is YMDC business.

Nurglitch wrote:Sure, but the fact is that Timmah doesn't play at your store, and the matter of the Deff Rolla is disputed in the greater community. Trying to pass off your little corner of the world as the world is, as I said, disingenuous where advice is concerned.

As for whether you think your interpretation of the rule is justified, it is irrelevant in this forum. In this forum you acknowledge that the rules-basis for a tactic is disputed, and move on; you don't argue that your interpretation is the right one, or that is how you and your little corner of the world plays it. That sort of thing is YMDC business.

Correct, Timmah probably doesn't play at my store but I had no way of knowing what the ruling was in Timmah's group, area, state, or whatever when I gave general advice that specifically answered his question. At no point did I try to "pass off your little corner of the world as the world". And stating that the majority of what I have read on this forum and others that as recently as 'Ard Boyz it was allowed is not an argument, it is a fact. That is what I have read. Did Timmah attend or know anyone who has attended 'Ard Boyz this year? If so did they allow it? I was giving Timmah the option to research and find out, not looking for converts in a grand master plan to brainwash humanity into my way of thinking.

At 'Ard Boyz I destroyed over a dozen enemy tanks, only one was with the DeffRolla, all others were with Power Klaws. DeffRollas are NOT the keystone to my army. Someone already mentioned Power Klaws before my original post so that wasn't really any need for me to mention them. At that point when I posted, DeffRollas were not mentioned by anyone, legal or not.

phillosmaster wrote: You ever read Catcher In The Rye Timmah? Calling everyone a cheater is only going to alienate you.

Nice.

To quote a less refined internet community:
Derailed thread is derailed...

Two meks with KFF

Three 20man squads of pk, bp slugga boyz

Three 10man squads of 1pk, bp nob sqauds.

...Job..done?

Timmah wrote:Most of the people I play against use mech lists with lots of vehicles. They usually just sit at range and shoot the crap out of my transports in the first 1-2 turns. Then they just dance around the field shooting my footsloggin orks from range.

It sounds like they are using lots of Razorbacks and Wave Serpants. If that's the case, it sounds like you need a bunch of lootas. When the lootas don't work you have a few other optoins.

1. You can try a nob biker squad (with warboss) with something like a total of 4 Power Klaws, then dash around turbo boosting for cover saves and clawing at vehicles.

2. you can throw 12 tankbustas into the list somewhere, and give them some kind of transport, a battlewagon if you can spare one for them. (You really need a transport for these guys, otherwise they will never catch up to the tank they are hunting) but these guys will destroy any tank they catch. Two of them have Tank Hammers, S10, the rest have what is essentially a meltabomb.