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CT GAMER wrote:

Redemption wrote:I would say both of the above cases are tactical errors on the terminator's player part. He could have easily blocked their path or killed the vanguard of that force the turn before.

And for reality purposes, just imagine a genestealer that close being able to blow the promethium back with a big hiss.

of course you can kill the lead guy, yes you can make efforts to play around a wonky/clunky rule. That is irrelevant to the fact that the flamer works counter-intuitively.

They might as well have said "when you fire the flamer flip a coin and the player that calls it gets to choose a random location on the map to be hit by the flame thrower...

I hope the 40K flamer rules get switched so that you kill one model under the flamer template and then you roll to wound the rest of the members of your own squad. Obviously the enemy would redirect the flame back onto your own squad after the first guy in their unit is killed...

1. The flamer in 40K is being used on an open battlefield, not in an enclosed corridor which may or may not be either a vacuum or full of any number of flammable gases, so your (admittedly facetious) comment on the 40k flamer rules is irrelevant.
2. Its not a 'wonky/clunky' rule, its a perfectly valid way of ensuring game balance. The GS best tactic is to rush and overwhelm the terminators as - and see if you can follow this - THEY DON'T HAVE GUNS. Therefore, if you allow the flamer to open up and toast them all once they have done all the hard work of getting up close to you without there being any risk at all to the terminators, then this serves to unbalance proceedings a tad. The Heavy flamer in SH is monstrously powerful, and if you have a weapon like that with no downsides at all then it becomes not very fun for the person playing the other side.
3. Its not random - where are you getting random from? You aim the thing by placing the template anywhere in range (12 squares) Tactically, the flamer is far more effective being used to block off corridors/rooms in order to try and prevent the stealers getting a jump on you. The neat trick is that in at least 2 of the missions you have to keep at least one shot in reserve to fulfill an objective, and being as how you only get 6 shots and there are lots of rooms and stealers then use of the flamer becomes very tactica and tense.
4. Why are you getting so caught up on this one point? If it annoys you that much then why play the game? 3rd Ed is simply 1st Ed reskinned with a few extras - the flamer rules (to my knowledge) are untouched. So essentially you are moaning about a rule that has been in place for 20 years, and being as how we are now playing the new 20th anniversary edition of the game then I would humbly venture to suggest that its a fairly robust ruleset and people don't seem to have a problem with it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to start a fight here, I just don't get why you are complaining so long and loud about, well, nothing

Large corridors/rooms, small portals between them...makes perfect sense to me- wherever the promethium stream hits and splatters/sticks/whatnot, that chamber is filled with firey death.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pRihxvk4YY

^ Use that as the idea, it doesn't shoot a fireball out, it shoots a stream of liquid that lands and burns....not to be shot at your own feet in a cramped corridor you're standing in with a small exit hatch at the end

And it makes for a very interesting weapon to use

House rule it if you don't like it, play it by raw if you do. Arguing about the legitimacy of one side is even dumber here than in YMDC since SH isn't played competitively.

fire4effekt wrote:

avantgarde wrote:Then firing rockets in the same environment should have the same effect.

What rockets?

Bolt rounds are actually rockets.

fire4effekt wrote:I think it makes sense how it is, you're firing a flame thrower in an oxygen rich or total vacuum environment depending on what still works in the hulk.

fire4effekt wrote:Yes, it's a game mechanic and one I enjoy, I've played loads of SH and counter intuitive as it may be; it's a board game and thems the rules.

blagmasterg wrote:
2. Its not a 'wonky/clunky' rule, its a perfectly valid way of ensuring game balance. The GS best tactic is to rush and overwhelm the terminators as - and see if you can follow this - THEY DON'T HAVE GUNS. Therefore, if you allow the flamer to open up and toast them all once they have done all the hard work of getting up close to you without there being any risk at all to the terminators, then this serves to unbalance proceedings a tad. The Heavy flamer in SH is monstrously powerful, and if you have a weapon like that with no downsides at all then it becomes not very fun for the person playing the other side.

See if YOU can follow along: The flamer's "downsides" are it's limited ammunition, inability to go on overwatch, and limited range.

4. Why are you getting so caught up on this one point? If it annoys you that much then why play the game? 3rd Ed is simply 1st Ed reskinned with a few extras - the flamer rules (to my knowledge) are untouched. So essentially you are moaning about a rule that has been in place for 20 years, and being as how we are now playing the new 20th anniversary edition of the game then I would humbly venture to suggest that its a fairly robust rule set and people don't seem to have a problem with it.

The 2nd edition flamer rules are superior and more intuitive imho. The current rules may be base don the original rules, but aclunky/un-intuitive rule is a clunky un-intuitive rule regardless of how old it is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to start a fight here, I just don't get why you are complaining so long and loud about, well, nothing

Right. See if once agian YOU can follow along: This is a discussion forum correct? This is a thread on said forum correct? This thread is discussing the space hulk flamer rules correct? I started the thread correct? Thus my participation in it only makes sense since discussion is ongoing in said thread about said topic. It isnt "moaning", its discussion. Not to mention that your suggestion to not play the game because I disagree with a rule is utterly illogical. People tend to be invested in and want to discuss and improve things they love. Seriously thats the best you got? maybe take soem of your own advice and stop participating in this thread if it annoys you so much instead of moaning about it...

Not to mention I think I said about ten posts ago that we should just agree to disagree and move on

so moving along

, however you and others continued to post in the thread and carry on the discussion., so who exactly is carrying on and on?

SO Again I'm willing to agree to disagree and move along, assuming I am not directly addressed again.

Man *dismounts from high horse*

First up, I must apologise if my tone was overly agressive. I have been spending too long on whinge-seer and its has addled my brain! Of course you are entiteld to take issue with any rules and depsite what I said before I can kinda see what it is that you are getting at - its just that it works for me (and I have to say that I prefer it to the second edition flamer rules but thats just me)

TBH, as I said I have been spending too long loking at Whingeseer, and because I deeply love SH and everything about it and they seem to spend so much time looking for things to moan about with it then I tend to get a little defensive. However, no excuses I was a p***k and I apologise - no hard feelings? *hopeful grin*

Everyone has thier own view on the rules, no harm was done.

Clearly none of you has ever used a flame thrower.

If you shoot a flame thrower in a confined space it fills up the space. This is why you stand outside the building, bunker, room, whatever, and fire into it. Even marines trained to use flame thowers are scared to death to pull the trigger.

Geez what do you guys learn in school these days, how to argue on and on about something you have no experience with

rdlb wrote:Clearly none of you has ever used a flame thrower.

If you shoot a flame thrower in a confined space it fills up the space. This is why you stand outside the building, bunker, room, whatever, and fire into it. Even marines trained to use flame thowers are scared to death to pull the trigger.

Geez what do you guys learn in school these days, how to argue on and on about something you have no experience with

Glad your so highly educated, too bad it didn't help you not miss the point.

The flamer in space hulk doesn't act a certain way based upon the environment like you describe above. If it did that would be fine.

The problem is the flamer goes from working in game terms like one would expect a flamer to work: shooting forward and burning the enemy massed up right in front of it to being a boomarang that shoots in the opposite direction more than forward simply because the user or an enemy model steps back across an imaginary line identified by where two pieces of tile come together; a line that doe snot represent any physical feature in the setting of the game: that is it does not represent a corner, or a wall or a structure that one could argue has environmental effects like you describe above.

It is purely an intangible thing with no in-setting presence. The environment isnt changing. If I am on the right of this imaginary line in a long hallway the flamer shoots forward a great distance killing many enemy. If I take a micro step backward I am still in the same hallway and really have barely moved but now the flamer shoots mostly the opposite direction it is pointed ignoring the many enemies in the direction I pointed it to instead hit myself and those friends behind me...

This has nothign to do with environment. This total reversal of represented physics utterly changes in a non-intuitive and nonsensical fashion based upon an imaginary line that represents nothing in the physical environment.

If you shoot a real flamethrower you have an educated guess that the flames will shout out of it in the direction it is pointed assuming no environmental interference (weather, physical geography, etc.).

Now suppose I draw a perpendicular line on the ground behind you with a piece of chalk. My education tells me that the flamer would not suddenly shoot 180 degrees away from the direction it is pointed only hitting things behind it and away from where the flamer is pointed because of the presence of the chalk line if I should take a step back ontot he other side of the line.

If this makes sense to you or was taught to you in whatever school you attended you may wish to question the quality of the education you received...

blah blah blah, FLAMES FOR THE PHYSICS GOD!

fire4effekt wrote:blah blah blah, FLAMES FOR THE PHYSICS GOD!

Come on now, us New England people need to get along and stick together. Be nice ;-)

CT GAMER wrote:a line that doe snot represent any physical feature in the setting of the game: that is it does not represent a corner, or a wall or a structure that one could argue has environmental effects like you describe above.

Actually, that's not completely accurate: if you look at the actual corridor pieces, you'll see there's a narrowing threshold at the end of each piece. Not to mention all the pressure differences a space station would have with all the life support systems circulating air.

The flamethrower works the way it does because that makes it function in the game, in terms of being an easy rule to grasp and use, and doing the in-game functions of clearing rooms, with a limited bit of 'round the corner' shooting, and blocking paths.

An alternative mechanism would be to allow the flamethrower to throw out say 9 square worth of flame, which the SM player lays on the board in a continuous pattern. There would have to be some restrictions on how the pattern could be laid, to prevent the flame being laid through a door into the cross-roads and out through a 90 degree bend into another corridoor.

This would possibly be more 'realistic'. I'm not sure it's less counter-intuitive or easier and quicker to play.

What is your idea?

Neconilis wrote:

fire4effekt wrote:blah blah blah, FLAMES FOR THE PHYSICS GOD!

Come on now, us New England people need to get along and stick together. Be nice ;-)

no, were gonna fight it out, meet me on the bridge, i'll bring my space hulk, you bring the folding card table and the beer, you know what forget the table, and forget hulk, just come over here with the beer.

I agree Avantgarde, the bolt gun is essentially an RPG

Ah one little note, I have seen people saying you can move and shoot with the flamer, but if you look in the rules i'm pretty sure it says you can't do this.

geez, no sense of humor...

Great Unlclean One wrote:Ah one little note, I have seen people saying you can move and shoot with the flamer, but if you look in the rules i'm pretty sure it says you can't do this.

no, I agree. The flamer cannot do the "combined move-and-fire" thing. I t is quite clearly stated in the Heavy Flamer rules on page 21.
"It costs 2 AP to take s shoot action with a heavy flamer. This cannot be combined with any other action."

fire4effekt wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

fire4effekt wrote:blah blah blah, FLAMES FOR THE PHYSICS GOD!

Come on now, us New England people need to get along and stick together. Be nice ;-)

no, were gonna fight it out, meet me on the bridge, i'll bring my space hulk, you bring the folding card table and the beer, you know what forget the table, and forget hulk, just come over here with the beer.

Shouldn't we just meet at Fenway then and learn that we're not so different after all because despite how we feel about Space Hulk we all hate the Yankees?... and of course I will also bring the beer. Need to get our fill of Octoberfest before it's replaced by Winter Lager after all =D

Great Unlclean One wrote:Ah one little note, I have seen people saying you can move and shoot with the flamer, but if you look in the rules i'm pretty sure it says you can't do this.

You can move and fire the Heavy flamer in the same turn, but you can't move and fire it for free in the same way as you can the storm bolter and assault cannon. It would be really hamstrung if you couldn't move at all when you fired it!

Ah ok sorry little misreading of the rules there, damn! I would have won suicide mission ALOT more if I had known it meant that! Thanks ^_^

Does section mean the actual board sections by the size of the piece or does is mean hallways as a whole eg a 4 sqaure piece and a 1 square piece or is it possible to fire at a 1 square piece and it only hits that single space?

This may seem silly but any advice would really clear this up for me. =]

thanks

Section= the actual individual pieces.

So for example a "hallway" made up of a three square piece, and two two square pieces is made up of three sections, etc.

Update: We simply went back to using the flamer rules frmt he previous boxset as we find them far more intuitive and logical, so problem solved for us.

cheers =]

Unless the flamer is positioned at the edge of a tile then surely he will be flaming himself all the time. That's pretty daft. I've never taken the rules as intended to be applied in that manner.

We always played it that the flamer only affected the tiles ahead of him. If he's in the middle of a 5-square corridor with his two mates behind and two genestealers in front then he can fire and the flamer hits all squares and sections in range from the flamer onwards. It doesn't hit the flamer or his chums behind, only the two genestealers in front and anything else in range beyond them. It seems contrary to common sense to do otherwise and likely to make the flamer unusable.

I've played spacehulk since 1st edition.

CT GAMER wrote:
Here we see two pics that illustrate:
[IMG]

Shoot with the bolters first. Chances are you should kill the nearest stealers, making it safe. Ideally if you have blips moving on you like that both bolters would be on overwatch. Pretty noobish mistake to allow yourself to get rushed like this. Dispersal pattern should have the flamer a square forward at a flank, not in the centre as shown - then for him it's one point to move forward diagonally (into LOS of the corridor), 2 to burn it. Another to get out of the way to allow overwatch shots to cover him if necessary.

This is another situation you have to be pretty inexperienced to fall into. When working to lead with the flamer (as for suicide mission) you need to time it right - which means a high command point turn where you can move him into a situation where he can flame that corridor section you're standing in in this pic after moving and opening the door. IMO it is the correct method to use the flamer to advance here (generally it's not a great idea), as using a bolter marine generally requires that you sacrifice him to stuff hiding in those crossways, as much to get him out of the way as anything else. You should refrain from using the flamer until he's in position. To get to where he is there, he should have flamed that crossroads section the previous turn (and be ready to do it again this turn). There's then no way for the stealer to get to that square unless he was in the nearest square of the crossroads piece and survived the flamer - remember burning squares block movement and LOS. Simultaneously you should advance along the parallel corridor in order to aim up and shoot out the door to the objective room and/or clear stealers in the corridor leading to it. High CP will help there to, as a canny stealer player will flood that area with bodies to shield the room and waste your flamer shots. In general, always leave the flamer at the edge of a section, never in the middle.

In both of these situation you can only kill one generstealer and have to roll to kill all three of your terminators on a 2+ on 1d6(all of which one would expect to be not on the business end of the weapon). The safest place to be is apparently in what would be the expected path of the flame in front of the weapon when it is fired at you, and the most dangerous place is behind the flamer when it is pointed away from you...

Neither of these situations should crop up really.

I would imagine that in such a scenario common sense would take over and you would be allowed to place the marker on the adjacent section.

Common sense is what I'm talking about. the rules for the H. flamer suggests otherwise which is the issue but most of you seems to think it makes sense, so moving along...

There is no room for interpretation in the SH rules. That's why I like it so much.

winterdyne wrote:Shoot with the bolters first.

That's not the point CT is making.

He's saying that, in that example, firing the flame thrower forward at the oncoming horde of 'Stealers will actually result in the death of all the Marines. In these situations, the flamer fires backwards and that is stupid.

No No No!
Read your rulebook people. The liberians power affects "Board" sections (not the flamer). The flamer affects "Map" sections upto 12 squares range, Closed doors stop it though.

"Oh no. I'm the genestealer player! how am i going to stop that flamer." I hear you cry, never fear! Just send genestealers in one by one. His only got six shots! Whats he going to do? Stand there and let you eat him? Or use vital ammo that he wants to save till you've swarmed?

See I'm a Space Hulk God!!!

Primarch Of The 2nd wrote:No No No!

Good advice, when you're considering posting in a thread that's been inactive for over a month.

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