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No offense taken Wrex,as I've often said my little family is "the great American melting pot" and we are very happy with that.
And again,I see I was incorect with my asumption that "jewish" was indicative of a race of people.

As for misnomers, anthropologists probably go crazy over society's choice of words since in their field there technically is no such thing as other races since we're able to do the nasty and spawn babies that could grow and make their own babies themselves. Knowledge is power, YO JOE.

Sweet.




Indeed.

The transformation of Judiasm from religion to race happened not that long ago in our history. I won't say when, but most people can guess.

Cane wrote:As for misnomers, anthropologists probably go crazy over society's choice of words since in their field there technically is no such thing as other races since we're able to do the nasty and spawn babies that could grow and make their own babies themselves. Knowledge is power, YO JOE.

The notion of race as applied to something like 40k has nothing to do with the actual concept of race. In terms of biology race denotes communal variation across the breadth of a species. For example, Kodiak Bears and Grizzly Bears are different races (more precisely, sub-species) of Brown Bear.

Tell someone that they are a member of a subspecies and watch their reaction... it is hilarious.

Like... your epidermis is showing .

LunaHound wrote:
The problem with racism is , it goes both ways , Racism isnt just limited to "white" people , but people like to
make it that way because of the slavery issue , a convenient "excuse" to throw accusations around.

I see just as much racist black as white , but no one ever dare to speak against it because they pull
the slavery card every single time. They need to get over that past , and realize the president IS INDEED BLACK .

Obama need to address the issue imo , stop this stupid cycle.

No, the problem is that racism is used to address two very different things. There racism where a person prefers to keep to their own, or dislikes someone else because of their ethnicity. This is better called xenophobia, and is all too common among people of every racial group.

But there is also racism at a systemic level. We live in world that has been built by white people, and it based around the cultural values and priorities of white people. As such, it's no surprise to look at the halls of power, boards of multinationals, political representation, and see a lot more white people than anyone else. It's no surprise to look at average income levels and see a blacks and hispanics with significantly lower average incomes.

Systemic racism is very one sided.


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Ketara wrote:As a Jew, it's always interesting to see that people class Judaism as a race rather than a religion. It's been the same for Muslims of late too. Yet never Christianity, or Buddhism. I wonder why?

Apologies for musing off topic post.

By most orthodox views, Judaism is passed down through the mother. If you have a Jewish mother you are a Jew, if you do not you are not a Jew. Whereas anyone can become a Christian, Buddhist or Muslim by accepting the beliefs of the religion.

You can be non-practicing Jew, rejecting the religious beliefs but keeping the traditions, social customs and family connections of Judaism. The same can't be said of Christianity, a non-practicing Christian makes no sense.

Judaism is also not big on conversions. So when the faith stays in the same families, and those families historically kept to themselves and marry among themselves (for perfectly understandable reasons), it makes sense to consider Judaism a race as much as a religion.


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Cane wrote:As for misnomers, anthropologists probably go crazy over society's choice of words since in their field there technically is no such thing as other races since we're able to do the nasty and spawn babies that could grow and make their own babies themselves. Knowledge is power, YO JOE.

There is no concept of race at the genetic level because the features that are often associated with race are not consistant, nor are they traceable to specific genes. It isn't purely skin colour, because several groups generally considered white have typically darker skin than those belonging to other racial groups, but other facial features start being considered to include people in one group or another. At which point you're looking at a range of factors spread across a range of genes, none of which are all that related.

Race is basically a social construct, and isn't purely about genes but also social identity. That's why ethnicity is generally considered a better term.

Race is basically a social construct, and isn't purely about genes but also social identity.

Watch people argue about that all day long though... I has seen it with mine eyes.

At some point I will have to make a toy that captures this feeling of utter stupidity. Like a rubiks cube that is only two colors or something .

The argument seems different, but it is always the same... always the same... echo.

Another toy that would work would be something where you look through one side of a telescope and then the other to realize it does not work because it is a freaking paper towel roll... seriously Wrex, what was your point? , search you must.

sebster wrote:
By most orthodox views, Judaism is passed down through the mother. If you have a Jewish mother you are a Jew, if you do not you are not a Jew. Whereas anyone can become a Christian, Buddhist or Muslim by accepting the beliefs of the religion.

It's true that this is the case from the Orthodox viewpoint. However, from a Liberal or Reformist viewpoint, not so. Reformists believe it can come from either parent, and the Liberals accept converts.

You can be non-practicing Jew, rejecting the religious beliefs but keeping the traditions, social customs and family connections of Judaism. The same can't be said of Christianity, a non-practicing Christian makes no sense.

That's true. This is something fairly unique to Judaism. But the same could not be said for Islam either, and as I said earlier, more and more these days, it seems to be viewed as a race, rather than a religion.

Judaism is also not big on conversions. So when the faith stays in the same families, and those families historically kept to themselves and marry among themselves (for perfectly understandable reasons), it makes sense to consider Judaism a race as much as a religion.

That's also true. Jews do tend to have certain physical characteristics, and personality types.

However, both of the above points are only valid for European Jews. If you compare European Jews(or their recent descendants) to Arabic Jews, you'll find they have very little in common. Arabic Jews do not have the same sense of humour, the same physical characteristics, speak Yiddish, and so on. So would it then be right then to say that there are two types of Jews? Ones which are a race, and one which are a religion? Because Arabic Jews are as much a race as Muslims are. You could not have one without the other.

No need to apologise FITZZ, I was just musing to myself. You said nothing that could cause offence. And even if you did, to be honest, I'd assume you had no intention of actually casuing offence, and just bypass it. I'm posting actual questions here I'm considering myself. To you and all other Dakkaites out there, there's no need to use kid gloves here. Don't feel that what you want to say might cause offence, just go ahead and say it. Political correctness should not stand in the way of meaningful and intellectual discussion. As long as it's not trolling, it's all good.

This thread made me sad...
(well, the first part)

Ketara wrote:It's true that this is the case from the Orthodox viewpoint. However, from a Liberal or Reformist viewpoint, not so. Reformists believe it can come from either parent, and the Liberals accept converts.

Fair point, it isn't as simple as I'd said. But when a significant portion of the faith directly connects Judaism with ancestry and not belief, it's fair to see why many consider it an ethnicity as well as a faith.

That's true. This is something fairly unique to Judaism. But the same could not be said for Islam either, and as I said earlier, more and more these days, it seems to be viewed as a race, rather than a religion.

I suspect in the case of Islam its more a case of people coming to terms with large and complicated faith that they really weren't all aware of just a few years ago. It's pretty easy to assume Islamic and Arabic is the same thing, not realising that Arabs make up only a small portion of total Muslims. Of course, we in the West are also pretty clueless about the differences between Arabs, Persians, Pashtuns, Tajiks and whoever else. I count myself in that category.

However, both of the above points are only valid for European Jews. If you compare European Jews(or their recent descendants) to Arabic Jews, you'll find they have very little in common. Arabic Jews do not have the same sense of humour, the same physical characteristics, speak Yiddish, and so on. So would it then be right then to say that there are two types of Jews? Ones which are a race, and one which are a religion? Because Arabic Jews are as much a race as Muslims are. You could not have one without the other.

At the end of the day, ethnicity or race is applying general terms to the near infinite complexity of people. It's never going to be that accurate.

It should be noted that ethnicity (or ethnocentrism in this context) has a whole lot more relevance than race in this conversation.

Someone who is racist is ignorant, those who are ethnocentric can be both ignorant and informed (albeit obtusely so) at the same time...

Ethnicity is a much more logical form to percieve human "groups" at any rate.