Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The Siege of Vraks books have some neat rules for the Traitor guard, you might wanna' try them out.

Heck, if you guys like LATD so much, keep using it.

Though I will agree that the 40K Daemon book seems like a creepy passenger to the very well done Fantasy Daemons.

The other part of it is that Daemons were made generic in the Chaos Marine list for no other reason than a cynical attempt at giving GW a new Codex to push.

With regards to this : I have heard, from sources I view as generally reliable, that the design studio had to actually fight quite hard for the inclusion of any form of demon rules in the CSM codex at all. The ones we got being an agreed upon compromise.

I guess, technically, this is really the continuation or implementation of GW's policy of the same things having different stats in different books for eh same thing.

I quite like the codex, and I think it plays different enough from the other races to make it a cool choice. The fluff in the book is mixed-- isn't it always-- but in many ways goes back to the older first fluff about the chaos gods in which it was quite possible for daemon A to have control over a unit of another gods daemons owing to a pact or a wager and so forth.

I much prefer this version of the Bloodletters ( although the original spindly ones are still my favourites)..but the new daemonettes.. hmm.. nice try.

Whilst I agree that the current CSM is somewhat anemic and I would like to see a proper L & D/traitor guard list, most of that would be similar enough to the standard guard list that it wouldn't justify its own book IMO. In much the same way that a "modern" marine chapter that turns its back on the Imperium is still best represented by using the marine codex rather than the chaos book I guess... you'd think people would have said something about this....

A Daemon Army:

I buy all the codexes and write out army lists and think about making the army, but rarely do. Money and time after all. Its easy to dream, but you have to really like an idea to commit money and time to the whole make-convert-paint and play side of things....

Flipping through the Daemon codex, what kind of list can I see?

For HQ, everything looks cool and nice.

How about four heralds of Khorne on chariots. That's decent stat lines for CHEAP!?

For Elites, two units of 6 Slaanesh Head rippers seems to be a nice way to get 36 STR 5 rending attacks on the charge. They are beasts and they have hit and run, with 5 toughness, invulnerable saves and 2 wounds, super fast, fearless, and survivable so I think these are your default core troops.

For Heavy. 3 Daemon princes with Breath of Chaos. They have more survivability than the soull crusher, and bad breath is an incredibly powerful ability good against literally everything in the game.

For fast two units of 5 screamers, jetbike melta bombs to crack monoliths, landraiders, tanks and mech spam.

Troops are an afterthought. 4 squads of nurgling bases, keep em out of harms way and let the big things do all the work.

It all starts in reserve. So the whole art is where to deploy when they appear.

I can see that it could a fun and viable army.

I think it can also smash a whole lot of opposing forces, very much depending on whether it can hide its assets from enemy fire, and whether it can control the dynamic of being the charger rather than the charged.

So you have to deep strike into the shadows (LOS shadows) and then CC ASAP.

Do I actually want to make this list? NO!

DO I actually want to buy all those ugly metal models? NO!

Do I think its competitive: VERY! So what! This list actually has precisely one unti type from each of the gods and one unit type unmarked (GD).

It has zero theme, zero character, zero hobby soul, zero reason for being.

You might decide to get themed and do an all Khorne force or what not. Such a daemon army would look and smell better, and for that the codex is ok!

But personally I just can't see any reason to choose one faction over the other.

There is nothing interesting about the God specific builds, because it is in every case only one choice in every category. There are only one each for fast, elite and troops for any of the Gods.

Thus there is ZERO creative imput in making a themed list, you only get some options in HQ and the choice of either DP or sould devourer in heavy!

This codex truly sucks!

I'm never going to actually make a real army from it!

Wow, so you are one of those types to not play an army because of what it says on paper.

Way to be so narrow minded and obviously uneducated. All 4 god armies play differently. Mono-nurgle is nothing at all like mono-khorne or slaanesh. All 4 are very colorful. As with any codex a non-themed hodge podge of all 4 gods is the best and strongest list but the mono-god armies can be good in their own right (slaanesh being the weakest of the 4) but still doable.

The list you also apparently see as being so good on paper actually sucks ass in play.

Screamers are generally thought of as not worth it as they cannot charge when they come in and will be the first unit shot by anyone with vehicles, against a non-vehicle army (like nids) they are an easy KP.

Plaguebearers are just too good to not take at least a single unit. Can hold objectives and 10 or more will stand up to damn near anything thrown at them (barring terminators but not much can actually stand up to those so that point is moot).

Nurglings not so great except in the Tally list or if you have slots to spare.

Fiends are great against a vehicle heavy army as even Crushers will struggle against anything with rear armor better than 10 (6 Fiends can actually damage a LR, Crushers have no chance in hell unless you give one Rending but too situational to be worth the points) but against infantry that are I4 or lower they will absolutely destroy any squad that doesn't strike first and actually do it better than Fiends. S6 power weapons are better than Rending anyday).

Best Heralds for HQ is 4X Slaanesh Heralds on Chariot, not Khornate.

Flamers are made of win in every way, shape and form.

I'm not going to review the entire codex OTG as you obviously have no idea what you are even talking about. In your opinion, based not on anything factual, the codex sucks. The list you posted, with the exception of the Fiends, sucks.

I mean not a single scoring unit? Any army in which you write a list with ZERO scoring units is not going to be even close to a good army. Try doing some homework and educate yourself on the codex before writing it off. That would be like me looking at the SW codex and saying "Wow, all HQ's and Elites and Heavy are super pricy and the characters all cost more than my GD's in my Daemon army so the codex must suck."

Like any codex, a handful or less (in this case 4) of the units in the Daemon codex suck, the rest are viable.

Do yourself and everyone else a favor. Actually read the fething codex and do your homework before opening your mouth. I bet your shoes must taste good, huh?

Fateweaver, just stop. No, seriously. Your post is clearly trying to say `Daemons are not as bad as you say, they are actually a good army' but it reads `this army is absolutely fething horrid: do not go near it!'. You seem too busy trying to make a soft attack to think about getting your point across.

My opinion on the Codex is similar to OTG's. I look at it, there are lots of options. Most FOC choices have one obviously terrible choice, but the rest are not too bad. Heavy Support seems a little lame, but Elites and HQ are amazing enough to make up for it --- not every army has to have a million awesome Heavy options, so long as they are good at something else. The troops look a little less interesting, and the fact you are shoehorned into a single strategy is very off-putting. There is a great illusion of enormous variety, but closer examination shows that it is not quite so varied as it first appears. This is all ignoring the terrible situation of the models in this army. To steal from HBMC, you get Chocolate, Vanilla, Strawberry and Caramel, which is nice, but toppings are heavily limited and this is all assuming you wanted ice cream. If you feel like pudding for a change, you will need to play a second army. To me, it looks like an army that is lacking in something. Daemons are interesting, but I would have preferred to have the option to field them with Chaos Space Marines and/or Mutants/Traitors. Perhaps next edition they will interest me, but at the moment I would rather start Grey Knights than Daemons.

It irritates me that people who have no clue what they are talking about try to tell me something is bad or good. In any facet of life an educated opinion holds more weight than an uneducated one and without having played the army how can OTG know what is good or bad except by whats on paper?

I didn't mean to be overly harsh in my reply. I never judge a codex until I play with it or against it. If I haven't done either one I won't until I do. I expect the same from others. I won't go into other codeciies supposed garbage units based on paper weight (IG Ogryns for one) but the least people can do is study the facts first.

If OTG had said "It is my opinion that the Daemon codex is not creative and sucks" than I'd be fine with that but he/she stated it as if it were FACT. That I have a problem with.

You aren't shoehorned into a single strategy though. If you try to play a Nurgle army like a Khornate army you will fail and fail big. None of the 4 mono armies use the same strategy, far from it.

I can appreciate people not liking the codex due to fluff or feeling it's not creative but please do not tell me it sucks as fact without having played with it or against it. Nowhere have I said that "ZOMG SW SUCK OR SW'S IS THE MOST BROKEN DEX EVER" because until I play with it or against it I only have my opinion to go on.

I digress. I'm done with this thread. I don't want to get a warning or a ban. I'd rather spend my time painting my Daemons.

Khorne, Slaanesh and Nurgle are all tactically different, but strategically there is very little difference. Tzeentch offers slightly more variety, but the army is still one of the more strategically narrow books around. That seems to be one of the biggest problems in my mind. If you ignore the third edition books, the two Chaos books are the two armies that offer the least strategic options. Amazing, considering the fluff would probably put the Chaos as the most strategically diverse force out there!

Fateweaver wrote:
You aren't shoehorned into a single strategy though. If you try to play a Nurgle army like a Khornate army you will fail and fail big. None of the 4 mono armies use the same strategy, far from it.

I totally agree with this statement. The daemons of each god lead to different strategies, and play very differently from each other. The closest two are, oddly, Khorne and Slaanesh, as both are assault-only armies, but even there they play differently enough to be interesting. Even within a mono-god idea, different lists lead to very different playstyles, most notably nurgle with or without Epidemius and Tzeentch with or without Fateweaver.

Claiming you have a single strategy because you happen to deep strike is like saying every non-daemon army has the same strategy because they deploy on the table.

I love the codex. Most people don't like it because they are uncomfortable with an entire army that deep strikes. To me it can actually be a simple army to play and is a lot of fun.

G

I didn't mind it as much as the split in Fantasy, as it seems logical that the inhabitants of the warp would only spill out in small gaps in the immaterium rather than be summoned wherever a bunch of Chaos Space Marines saw fit. 40K covers a whole galaxy and there can't be holes in the fabric of reality everywhere.

Flashman wrote:40K covers a whole galaxy and there can't be holes in the fabric of reality everywhere.

Apparently there are, and those holes in reality are always where an enemy army happens to be. Amazing really - one might even say 'Just as planned'. Not that I would. Yeah.

Fateweaver wrote:It irritates me that people who have no clue what they are talking about try to tell me something is bad or good. In any facet of life an educated opinion holds more weight than an uneducated one and without having played the army how can OTG know what is good or bad except by whats on paper?

If you do it correctly, what's on the paper are statistics, the only valuable metric for measuring effectiveness. Anything else is just anecdotes.

I loved the fluff in the Daemons codex & army book, but the lists and rules themselves seemed lazy and contrived

Fateweaver,

You actually have these armies and play them? Wow!

I can see that four Slaaneshi heralds might be better than Khornate sure, except that the Khornate ones get a 3+ Armour save an extra point of strength and POWER WEAPONS (vs rending) but you are such a genius, and you actually really have these armies (Snicker) so what would a dumb old codex reader like me know about that?

I also agree that A Nurgle army would play different from a Tzeetch one. Did you hear me saying that the four themed armies would play the same??? You have a gift for INVENTING what you think other people said so that you think you have a reason to scream.

Man with that level of imagination, and all those models, it must get awful exciting in your bedroom.

I can imagine them all painted so brilliantly as well. Like the subtle critical mind you show in your posts suggest probably an undercoat of car car spray and a wash of decking lacquer, before basing with different colour ice cream sprinkles, green for Nurgle of course.....

The angle of critique was that if you play an army themed to one God, with the exceptions of nurgle having two different troop types there was zero choice of alternative units in the elite, troops, fast and Heavy sections. Is it ok if I think that is not very exciting? I mean, other people might just love to rush out and buy their all Nurgle Epidermus list, good for them Fate! The idea that other people like and play the codex did occur to me. Yes, I mentioned it! I invited complimentary discussion of the merits of the codex. How about offering that!

And yes, I did say that the elite and HQ troops were great.

And the core of my negativity was the opinion that I didn't like the codex rather than any fact, oh except for the fact that themed armies don't actually have much in the way of choice. That is like a fact, like based on the fact that if you want to make a Slaanesh list, you have the choice of one slaaneshi troop type, one elite type, one fast type...My opinion was that I didn't like those facts.

Speaking of types, you are quite a type yourself! Like WOW! A guy who actually has 4 Entire Chaos Daemon armies! That is so awesome! I'm really glad that you have a hobby and all, cos, thats much healthier than all the bipolar balancing medication. Such a temperament, and such a passion for toys!

Please keep on collecting those toys and please don't start collecting assault rifles.....You probably don't have the right disposition for that hobby.

There are a number of ways to earn respect in this world.

Entry level participation: Buying things, having opinions about them does not necessarily achieve that.

Do you really have these armies?

Are you really convinced that your lists (They are real after all!) Would beat the hypothetical list I offered? In any scenario, in any terrain, irrespective of who went first? That seems strange confidence. You have played your lists after all, and you know their weaknesses, right!

I've read a few of your posts today and they have the unique genius of giving me a headache almost instantly every time?

Have you been drinking?

I'm sure you are a passionate hobbyist and I'm doubly sure that you would be a great and helpful opponent in a friendly or tournameny game! Seriously!

But you don't have to post like you are the master of all you survey. This hobby is usually the domain for people like myself, fugitives of real world failure, making valiant fantasy war in a safe environment, while we recover and move on to a better tomorrow.

Can we keep the war on the gaming table, rather than in the posts?

I'm sure I don't want you posting anything in any thread I start again, unless you can get off the Hennesy and Animus.

Your conversation style truly sucks. Which means your way of thinking and communicating does. Which means, you have issues friend, which have nothing to do with this hobby, so get a grip on what is really annoying you. (lost a job? Girlfriend slept with best friend, general angst?) CHEER UP a little, and learn the art of being a subtle a***hole rather than an obvious one.

OTG




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Read my post that annoyed you so much, and then read your reply! My dismissals of the codex were followed by caveats that granted others their capacity to use and enjoy it. Your reply was based on ad hominem attacks and complete re-invention of my post according to your own messed up aggenda. Uneducated? My formal education is Masters (education) yours? You play and love your daemons, very much good for you. Go back to the first post, and you might note that one reason for this whole thread was to CRY that Daemons came at the cost of closing down many Legion oriented chaos options. Of course there are players who play and enjoy codexes irrespective of the pains of transitions. Others suffer the changes and loss of lists and builds, so could you please grant the mourners the right to enjoy their mourning and if you love the codex go and create a thread of your own IN PRAISE of the codex rather than dumping on the thread with your horrible messed up, distortive, aggressive PERSONA.

OTG

Orc Town Grot wrote:
The angle of critique was that if you play an army themed to one God, with the exceptions of nurgle having two different troop types there was zero choice of alternative units in the elite, troops, fast and Heavy sections. Is it ok if I think that is not very exciting?
...
And the core of my negativity was the opinion that I didn't like the codex rather than any fact, oh except for the fact that themed armies don't actually have much in the way of choice. That is like a fact, like based on the fact that if you want to make a Slaanesh list, you have the choice of one slaaneshi troop type, one elite type, one fast type...My opinion was that I didn't like those facts.

Other than the over-the-top personal attack, which I didn't quote, I'd like to point out that if you make a themed list out of any codex, you end up with more limited selections.

If you choose to make a Deathwing themed Dark Angel army, you're forced to take a special character, and are limited to only a handful of list choices.
If you choose to make a Scout-company themed Space Marine army, you're limited to one troop choice, and a couple of fast attack options.
If you choose to make a Biel-tan Eldar army, you're limited to one troop choice.
If you choose to make a Farsight-themed Tau army, you're limited to one troop choice, and restricted in other categories.
If you choose to make a Necron themed Necron army, you're limited to one troop choice.
If you choose to make an Arbites-themed Witchhunter army, you're limited to one troop choice.

So, if your opposition to the Chaos Daemon codex is that you can apply self-imposed restrictions that reduce your number of choices and you don't like the lack of choices, perhaps the solution is to not apply self-imposed restrictions...

By way of comparison, if you choose not to impose your own set of restrictions, the Chaos Daemon codex offers more choices than average in three of the five categories, the most choices of any codex in one category (HQ), and are tied for second most overall choices, behind GW's favourite Space Marines (which does things like counting different weapon options on a Land Raider as an entirely different choice)...

All Chaos Codex discussion threads are being locked while Mods wade through a heap of complaints and decide what action should be taken.