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Night Lords wrote:Well shep, its funny you say that, because my Chaos heavy support is as follows:

Havocs - 4x autocannon, icon of chaos glory (~200)
Predator - Autocannon turret, Lascannon Sponsons (130)
Predator - Autocannon turret, Lascannon Sponsons (130)

It works magic.

4 lascannons and 6 autocannons for 460.

versus 9 lascannons at 675.

Its pretty clear that at least versus mechanized, non-cc armies, that is the most points efficient way to fill out heavy support.

My problem with chaos, is that you need to also have some amount of melta to tackle land raider based armies, and as IG I am very hesitant to give that duty to troops choices. Also, when facing demons, thunderwolves, and future tyranids, multi-shot ap2 would probably also be a requirement. With your heavy support filled out and looking to target vehicles from range, are there enough quality units in other slots to make being close dangerous, to both multi-wound beaters and land raiders?

Since I don't often play with CC beaters, can a warptime demon prince stand in for plasma in a CSM army? And is it safe enough to have plaguemarines hunt land raiders (if you had at least 4 units)?

These are questions I dont have answers to as I have a lot of experience versing CSM but only while playing dark angels and IG.

Well, in 2K I have 40 CSM (not including havocs) with 8 melta guns (standard way to run them). I save those points from 9 oblits, and that allows me to buy another squad of marines.

Landraiders arnt a problem. The problem my heavy support has are terminators. The one real drawback to not taking oblits is the plasma cannon.

However, I think of it like this: What is more likely to be on the other side of the table? Terminators or Light Transports? It's pretty obvious it will be the transports, and having 12 S7 autocannon shots and 4 lascannon shots is great for taking those out.

I can still take terminators out, I just need to get in closer, or simply ignore them. SS/TH termies have 3+ invul save anyways, so I dont think its a big deal missing out on the plasma cannon.

As for the Oblits...3 oblits have more firepower than 2? Im shocked.

Then why do you insist on being obtuse?

Deep striking Oblits is a bad call in most every circumstance as Termicide squads do the same thing cheaper. So in this context, no, it is not a good call.

I, as well as a lot of people who post here, are well aware of opportunity cost. That is nothing surprising and there is no need to act like a condescending arse either.

In my opinion, yes, 1 oblit in most all cases is a better investment than 5 chaos marines, full stop. More firepower, more flexibility.

Did you know a single, regular lascannon has a 40% chance of killing an oblit?

How do you figure this? Are you not factoring in odds to hit and cover?

If Oblits are in cover, which they should be, and a BS3 model is firing at them with a las cannon, the odds are more like
1/2*5/6*1/2=20%

They are very durable. Two die faster than three. I am sure that is a big surprise as well.

And take this against the age old argument of a vehicle, where all you need to silence them is a stun. I would rather have Oblits, any time and in fact, would rather have 9 in the back field shooting than 6 deep striking. The effectiveness of 9 oblits firing from out of 4+ cover should be no surprise to anyone by now.

Plus, stacking heavy support with Auto cannons specifically gives you an edge against AV12 vehicles, you have jack and gak against AV14. You also have less mobility and tactical options than 9 oblits provides you.

So again, 2 oblits is not better than 3 in any context. With a small amount of variables with only two models it is easy to blow the curve and fail in your task, and the increased durability of an extra body increases odds of them completing their role of ranged tank killing plus gives them greater endurance.

You combine this with termicide squads, winged princes and you have a very effective, mobile and flexible tank killing force. Fill troops with cult troops for taking objectives and thinning crowds (which Oblits are also great at) and you have a very effective Chaos list for taking on IG, or anyone else, although it is nothing ground breaking. But there is a reason that list has performed so well: it works.

-It has nothing with being an arse. People waste points, and do not understand opportunity cost. The fact that you insist on taking 3 oblits (instead of 2) over another rhino moving up the field speaks volumes.
-BS4 lascannon shooting at an oblit has ~40% without cover, ~30% in cover. Guard will have so many guns that 3 oblits will still get demolished.
-The fact you think an extra lascannon against AV14 is actually going to do something is laughable and shows ignorance. Melta guns are the way to take LRs out. If youre shooting LRs with Oblits, let's just say youre not playing very well.
-If Im going to sit back and Lascannon, I might as well take a predator (which I do). It's far more cost efficient (2 lascannons AND 2 autocannon shots for less than 2 oblits), and it's going to take a lucky shot to get through AV13 from far away (unlike an oblit which has a good chance of dying).
-Deepstriking oblits allows them to actually melta units instead of being expensive lascannons.


Its easy to simply take 9 oblits and think youve made the best choices. The fact is, youre paying 75 points for versatility with oblits, and if youre not going to use the plasma cannon, theres no reason to take them, as there are other units that do everything else better for a cheaper price.

You must be unable to read in addition to you arrogance.

First off, the list to fight IG, as well as any other army, that I proposed did not rely on Oblits to take out AV14. The Oblits supplemented that ability where autocannons would be worthless.

To kill one oblit and reduce the las cannon output by 1, is 27% or close enough to 30% (And why would they ever not be in cover in a shooty role?) from a BS4 las cannon.

For a BS4 las cannon to stop a pred from firing is 33%. That one shot, while perhaps not destroying it, has shut down 100% of the unit's firepower for at least a turn as opposed to 33% with Oblits.

And, if IG have so much firepower, then those tanks are going to be shut down all game with greater ease than 3 maxed squads of Oblits.

Oblits can move and fire, preds can in a sense, havocs can not. That gives you the ability to alhpa strike, if you go first or not.

9 plasma cannon shots a turn gives you huge flexibility.

At any rate, I doubt we are going to convince each other of anything as both of us are being abrasive.

I will say though, that 9 oblits, 3 termicide squads, 2 winged warp time deamon princes and mechanized cult troops to taste with a reserve lesser deamon unit to babysit your objective, is a well rounded, effective army that will take on IG of any configuration with good odds of winning.

Shep wrote:And an alpha strike with no astropath or drop pod assault rule to add consistency to it. I could see my list getting overwhelmed by it with the right reserves rolls, but a wonky reserves roll and/or some unfavorable scatters could make a nice little piecemeal mop up operation for me.

Agree to an extent, Shep. Although you have huge problems with no bonuses to reserve rolls, having 6 units deep striking gives you good chance of stuff showing up. Saturation of reserve rolls rather than reserve roll boosting.

I play both Chaos and IG, versus other Chaos and IG, and I can say for certain that my IG list is more bothered by the alpha strike Chaos than any other kind. Predators die to the guns that I normally kill AV14 with from 48" away, and AC havoks take three casualties and can be basically ignored. Long story short, no Chaos gunline beats an IG gunline.

Long range anti-armor 12, or fast T5/eternal warrior beaters in my lines on turn 2 are the best ways to slow me down. getting close and just trying to slug it out with a special weapon duel, or trying to kite me are probably not going to do as well.

Agree on both points, however Chaos doesn't have effective long-range anti-AV12 beyond the aforementioned Havoks who lack duality against AV14 and the only Fast T5 is the Chaos Raptor with MoN that, while not as bad against IG as most other armies, are probably not better than PMs with dual melta in a rhino.

Its not arrogance, your argument just has so little substance, essentially making the oblits appear to be something theyre not.

A pred gets stunned 33% of the time...ok. It also only gets destroyed 5% of the time (whereas oblits will die 30-40% of the time). So essentially 2/3 shots are going to do nothing, and the 1 shot that does get through makes it so it cant shoot next turn.

What is absolutely hilarious about this "point" (I love it when people bring it up) is that if an opponent were to try to do this, I might as well thank them. They just wasted more shots stunning a pred than I could have stopped on my own turn with it. I prefer people shoot the pred because A) Its not going to do anything other than maybe stun it and B) while people are wasting shots, Im running up the field with my rhinos that are actually going to win me the game.

If IG has so much firepower, theyre going to need 4 lascannons to stun it, and about 20 lascannons to take it down. And thats only one 130 point predator. Oblits on the other hand will die, poof, gone, one third (or higher) of the time.

Like I said, youre paying 75 points for a unit that is far more susceptible to everything and has less shots a turn, all for "flexibility". But in reality, it's a plasma cannon, because everything else can be bought on separate units.

The IG these days do not rely on lascannons only ( these are usually on vendettas anyway, and the lascannons will be twin linked) only, but a whole range of options such as medusas, manticores, and massed meltagun fire..

From my experience fighting marines and csms, predators are more distractions than anything else..oblits are more dangerous mainly because they can shoot AND assault, and the CC phase is where the IG is weakest..



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Night Lords wrote:

freddieyu1 wrote:

sourclams wrote:The problem that the IG player runs into, especially if he has Astropaths, is that his entire army has to sit there immobile waiting for the Deep Strikers to appear in order to really make effective use of his Inq+Mystics. In a Kill Point mission that's ... well, okay. In objectives missions that's failure.

If he's got Inq and Mystics deep strike your units and kill his transports while your rhinos roar forward to pop the tanks in the backfield.

If he refuses to move anything, then Deep Strike onto objectives and win.

That is the wrong way to play the IG definitely....and this is the reason why my inq + mystics also have warriors with meltas with them, and borrow a chimera....so that they can keep up with my mech component and also hit something too....and popping chimeras is not too easy as long as the IG player does not "line them up" evenly, but rather "leapfrogs" the chimeras, using the lead chimera (with smoke) and terrain as cover for the front and vulnerable sides....

I am not too scared of heavy armored things near my baseline, as they are mostly infantry surrounding artillery, and I keep 2 squads of Rough riders precisely to countercharge any heavy infantry that comes close to my lines, or to support my assault component....

The chimera hopping doesnt work nearly as well as rhino hopping in my opinion. The reason being that the Chimera's side armour is 10, so that means you need to keep it straight when moving up the field. This also means youre a lot slower, especially if you alternate smoke.

ah but see there is a big difference in this..the chimeras are infantry fighting vehicles who can fight while at combat speed, with rhinos you need to rush forward and disembark the troops...with the IG you want them embarked for as long as possible.....

I dont think sourclams is wrong with his strategy. The deepstriking units are supposed to be throw away units that help the troops move up the field. What happens to them after they do their job is irrelevant. Chaos doesnt depend on the deepstriking units after they land and shoot.

I just think he wastes a few too many points on some things, such as those 3 extra oblits. 2x3 Oblits deepstriking with TL meltas are going to do the job you need them to do, and they will die very easily, even to guardsmen.

Reecius wrote:

You hate people that play a certain army? That is a pretty ridiculous thing to say.

If you notice, it says in my experience. It's been the combination of the lame army and childish players.

That is unfortunate then that the IG players in your area are childish...it is really the player and not the army that determines the likeability of the opponent.....

Well said Freddieyu1, it is the army, not the player.

Well Night Lord, stick with what works for you. I only got on your back because you were making what I felt were ridiculous statements about the IG army and players. Saying an army sucks and that the players, even if only in your experience, are childish is pointless and does not contribute to the issue at hand, which is why I pointed it out.

If you like Preds and haocs, go for it and good luck to you.

I know as a long time Guard player, I fear Oblits more, perhaps that is due to my build preferences.

At any rate, I think we both made our arguments, no sense in ranting. People will have to decide for themselves what they feel are the best tools to use.

Ok? Youre the ones that completely blew it out of proportion. I didnt say every IG player = dillhole. However, its no coincidence that with it being a new army, and the type of playstyle it brings to the table, that the players tend to be more annoying to play against.

As for the Oblits, you can choose to ignore facts and go with the braindead list, or you can actually explore the book. Either way, I dont really care, but Im going to shoot down senseless posts that bring nothing to the table regardless.

"Either way, I dont really care, but Im going to shoot down senseless posts that bring nothing to the table regardless."

This is the kinda statement that makes humans in general sound like morons. It's not a matter of who's right. It's a conflict of experience etc. So both points are valid in the respective realms. I don't understand how several of the posters can turn something simple as tactics discussion to something so personnel. The op didn't ask for a childish display of who's junk is bigger, he asked what are some viable tactics. I'm glad to see guys like freddie who can post responses, give some good advice and not throw a temper tantrum or take things so personnel.

"This is the kinda statement that makes humans in general sound like morons"

This is probably the most ironic statement Ive ever read on the internet.

I also find it funny you quote me and then talk about personal, when the only person threatened or taking things personally is Reecius (who's now called me arrogant, insulted my ability to read, and arse, etc.)

I stick to the topic, and my sentence you quoted has nothing to do with right or wrong. Its whether its applicable. Ex. "3 is better than 2"....shocking discovery.

Night Lords wrote:"This is the kinda statement that makes humans in general sound like morons"

This is probably the most ironic statement Ive ever read on the internet.

I also find it funny you quote me and then talk about personal, when the only person threatened or taking things personally is Reecius (who's now called me arrogant, insulted my ability to read, and arse, etc.)

I stick to the topic, and my sentence you quoted has nothing to do with right or wrong. Its whether its applicable. Ex. "3 is better than 2"....shocking discovery.

The quote and the rest fall under 2 different thoughts. I should have put a space so that others wouldn't assume that 2 completely different thoughts were the same. Though the reason night lords I ever included you in the personnel notion is because you make statements like this..Ex. "3 is better than 2"....shocking discovery." Things like that and the one I quoted previous sound more like a butt hurt child than an actual discussion. Hey I also am not taking sides between you. I'm not commenting and saying about you personally other than it seems people are taking threads far too seriously and your quote was a good example. If you two can't play nice please move your argument to pms or something. As a final thought I am not going to argue or debate this with you. This is my opinion and just like all on this forum are entitled to theirs.