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I've been noticing that I.G. is doing extremely well at the local tourneys. I have yet to play the new Guard codex. I've read the hype on them. What I'm looking for is some tactica using CSM against Guard. Is Chaos spam, ie dual lash & oblits, about the only option? I can field just about anything, meaning I have sufficient models. There are a few local tourneys coming up in the next month or so and would like to be prepared for the wave of Guard I will face. Thanks!

The things I will always run against guard;
- Khorne Zerkers - They can dominate most of their armor. If even 2 zerkers get into CC with a group of guard you will probably cause a sweep.
- Termacide - Your BEST friend against guard. Dropping 3 combi-meltas behind a leman russ or a guard armor line is pretty laughable (as you will typically kill one, then charge and kill another the next turn)
- Oblits - Obvious. The main issue with oblits is, if your foe knows what to do, they will send all their lascannons and such at them. Meaning each failed save is a dead oblit :( I normally only run 3 against guard if the person know what they're doing, mostly to soak up shots.
- Meltaguns - Melta-biker squads, raptors, or 2x melta PM/Undivided are good against most guard lists. Despite the short range, getting 1 rhino with 2 meltas into range will devastate their lines.

I would suggest staying away from lash/oblit spam as that is normally only viable at a decently high points value... which means the IG player will have a LOT more armor to contend with. As most IG players don't run too much foot slogging, lash princes are pretty null. Warptime MoN DP's are awesome, they can take down armor as well as wipe entire IG squads a turn.

The new Ig is pretty powerful but it has the same weaknesses most things of its type does; its an armored firing line. Get into CC or drop a lot of things behind it and its hard pressed. IG are just as fragile as Eldar, they just have bigger guns

I think this is just another case where oblits arnt that great.

The new IG is part of the reason I run 2 predators now. IG lascannons have to get pretty lucky or dedicate a lot of shooting to destroy an AV13 predator (I believe each one has like 5% chance of blowing it up). Much harder to kill than oblits.

Theyre also one of the reasons I run two dreads now (3rd elite is termicide), as AV12 will take some dedicated shooting, and 2 DCCW dreads dont have much to worry about in terms of it going insane. Anything that reaches the IG line will start tearing things up.


Honestly, fighting IG is extremely boring. Run up the field while getting hit by 100s of guns, get into CC and sweep 'em away. The worst is when you spend an hour to get to the end of turn 2 while having your CSM blasted away. Then, after getting the few marines you have left into CC, you start dominating them and turning the tables, only to have your opponent concede the game because they just werent lucky enough at shooting that day.

IG players are the worst from my experience. I hate them.

Night Lords wrote:I think this is just another case where oblits arnt that great.

The new IG is part of the reason I run 2 predators now. IG lascannons have to get pretty lucky or dedicate a lot of shooting to destroy an AV13 predator (I believe each one has like 5% chance of blowing it up). Much harder to kill than oblits.

Theyre also one of the reasons I run two dreads now (3rd elite is termicide), as AV12 will take some dedicated shooting, and 2 DCCW dreads dont have much to worry about in terms of it going insane. Anything that reaches the IG line will start tearing things up.


Honestly, fighting IG is extremely boring. Run up the field while getting hit by 100s of guns, get into CC and sweep 'em away. The worst is when you spend an hour to get to the end of turn 2 while having your CSM blasted away. Then, after getting the few marines you have left into CC, you start dominating them and turning the tables, only to have your opponent concede the game because they just werent lucky enough at shooting that day.

IG players are the worst from my experience. I hate them.

If those are the types of IG players you play against, it really is boring since they run a very one dimensional list....

True hardcore IG players know when to mix it in CC too...maybe not to win the combat but to embroil your units in a tarpit, and it is obvious your opponents are not fond of running counterassault units (ie rough riders, tooled up command squads, etc...)..even now I find counterattack units are still useful to finish off what shooting did not...

I usually Melta their heavy slot tanks to the rear with oblits with tled melta guns. Take out the tanks and ordanance their troop's.

Then run in and kill them all unless they are ogryns they should die easily.

Chaos have a tough time just because they need to get so close. Lesser Daemons and Zerks are you BEST friends.

If the IG player is totally mechanized, then trying to get in close with CSM is suicide. The chimera wall will shut you down.

Termicides, and long range firepower is the way to go.

It depends on what kind of IG your facing, with all the new tanks, most people expect them to go mechanised which is a good list but has it strengths and weaknesses. Against mech IG you need a way to kill his transports fast to get the guys inside them. I feilded a mechanised force a couple times and wiped out my opponent with just my transports (valkyries 7 of them) shooting.

Alternitively the army I love to feild just for shock value is the swarm list. I feild about 250 guardsmen, 3 medusas (heavy infantry killer), and 3 griffons(light infantry killer). Then I send 200 guardsmen charging forward. This list I've had the most succes with as most players take one look and say "You have the points for THAT??"
At one point I tabled an orc player with over 100 boyz (2500 points) as he just couldn't stop the wave after wave of men.

I doubt anyone you'll be facing will have an army like this because it take balls of steel to play and you have to be able to throw away your men, but beleive you have enough to ge tthe job done.

The way to beat this, the closest I've had anyone come was in Ard Boy's when a guy feilding 90 spacemarines and 6 heavy bolter toting razorbacks tried to sit and shoot at me in a capture and control mission. once my line hit his (got within 12") the battle changed dramatically and with what I thought was a loss I pulled into a minor victory.

In short if he has transports, pop them then assault the guys inside. If he has massed infantry chargers, shoot them and pray you have enough firepower. And if he has massed infantry sit and shoot, charge and hope you can have enough guys survive.

Typhon wrote:It depends on what kind of IG your facing, with all the new tanks, most people expect them to go mechanised which is a good list but has it strengths and weaknesses. Against mech IG you need a way to kill his transports fast to get the guys inside them. I feilded a mechanised force a couple times and wiped out my opponent with just my transports (valkyries 7 of them) shooting.

Alternitively the army I love to feild just for shock value is the swarm list. I feild about 250 guardsmen, 3 medusas (heavy infantry killer), and 3 griffons(light infantry killer). Then I send 200 guardsmen charging forward. This list I've had the most succes with as most players take one look and say "You have the points for THAT??"
At one point I tabled an orc player with over 100 boyz (2500 points) as he just couldn't stop the wave after wave of men.

I doubt anyone you'll be facing will have an army like this because it take balls of steel to play and you have to be able to throw away your men, but beleive you have enough to ge tthe job done.

The way to beat this, the closest I've had anyone come was in Ard Boy's when a guy feilding 90 spacemarines and 6 heavy bolter toting razorbacks tried to sit and shoot at me in a capture and control mission. once my line hit his (got within 12") the battle changed dramatically and with what I thought was a loss I pulled into a minor victory.

In short if he has transports, pop them then assault the guys inside. If he has massed infantry chargers, shoot them and pray you have enough firepower. And if he has massed infantry sit and shoot, charge and hope you can have enough guys survive.

Not to mention it is no joke to paint 250 infantrymen!!!!

Here's what I'd run:

Prince with Warptime, Wings x2

3x Termicide with one chainfist

3x 3 Oblits

As many minimal plague marine rhinos with dual melta as you can fit.

Warptime princes can CC vehicles that have moved more than 6" fairly effectively.

Rhinos are a necessity.

Plague Marines are going to be a lot more survivable than full squads of 10 CSM at a cheaper price; IG reliance on templates and blasts means you want fewer models and FNP + Fearless is invaluable versus Guard.

Termicide can't be beaten for cheap melta support.

Oblits deep striking alongside Termicide give your list alpha strike potential, and if the IG player is creating castles with mystics to avoid alpha striking melta oblits/terms then he's not moving for objectives.

As an IG and a CSM player, that's what I'd run. Havocs are not scary, Outflanking Chosen are not scary. Defilers/Dreadnoughts/CSM Land Raiders are all not scary.

You want to maximize durable, relatively inexpensive units so as to dilute the IG player's firepower as much as possible. If you take any single, large, expensive targets (CSM Land Raider + Berzerkers + Abaddon, for example) the IG player is able to concentrate fire...and there are very few armies that can concentrate fire like IG.

Against IG, i'll probably be running dual lash (for putting them into one massive ball), then fire the hell out of them with 4 flamer havocs, whilst i shoot them down with my 4 heavy bolter havocs. For their tanks, i got 4 melta havocs and 2xtermicide squads. I think that should be enough at a 1500 pts game. For troops i have 2x150 pts CSM and a squad of 7 pm.

Asger wrote:Against IG, i'll probably be running dual lash (for putting them into one massive ball), then fire the hell out of them with 4 flamer havocs, whilst i shoot them down with my 4 heavy bolter havocs. For their tanks, i got 4 melta havocs and 2xtermicide squads. I think that should be enough at a 1500 pts game. For troops i have 2x150 pts CSM and a squad of 7 pm.

Don't rely on dual lash so much..many IG armies are mechanized, and for those who run hybrid armies (like myself) I have a ld10 inquisitor ally with a psychic hood to blunt the popular lash/fortune/warp blast etc etc etc. psychic armies out there......

Hmm ok, thanks for the advice

It seems that DS terminators or oblits is the most popular choice, but what about those I.G. players who take an Inquisitor with 2 mystics and sit next to a Leman Russ Executioner? 5 shots with plasma cannons on every DS unit seems kinda rough. At least this is what alot of Guard armies are running around here.

What about infiltrating chosen units with melta/flamer in a rhino (maybe even outflanking) or las/plas sitting in a heavy weapon sniper role, ie highest point on battlefield or building.

The problem that the IG player runs into, especially if he has Astropaths, is that his entire army has to sit there immobile waiting for the Deep Strikers to appear in order to really make effective use of his Inq+Mystics. In a Kill Point mission that's ... well, okay. In objectives missions that's failure.

If he's got Inq and Mystics deep strike your units and kill his transports while your rhinos roar forward to pop the tanks in the backfield.

If he refuses to move anything, then Deep Strike onto objectives and win.

Im working on beating IG myself - getting about a 50/50 run at the moment. Finding most success of having lots of troops in rhinos (dont forget that most CSMs have krak and frags, and that rear armour is targeted in an assault on a vehicle).

I then protect these by having a LR charging forward full of Zerkers - they cannot afford to ignore this, and will pour a lot of fire to get it down. If you have two, thats pretty nasty.

I also infiltrate/outflank with 5xmelta chosen. I prefer infiltrate, as its one more thing on the board that they need to deal with from round one, and it means my troops will rhino rush forward - dont forget the smoke launchers!

Dont waste points on a powerfist, get a powerweapon and melta bombs instead.

So basically, get close with as much as you can.

Power weapons are a bigger waste of points versus IG than fists. Don't take either.

Good point - ive always equiped my AC's with something, probably out of habit. they rarely are a factor once your carving yourself some IG.

If you do run oblits, dont take 3 in each squad. You only need 2 to do the job. 3x3 oblits isnt ideal under any circumstances. 2x3 is good enough and saves you 225 points.

Two Oblits isn't nearly "good enough" versus IG. You need all the mobile heavy firepower you can get to knock down the wall of chimeras and AV12 before they vaporize your army from far, far away.

Nine Oblits is 675 points. That leaves 1170 points for guys in Rhinos after you add your Daemon Prince.

That is far, far too many points into such fragile units. Dear god, against guard and their big guns oblits can easily get demolished. The fact you can buy an entire upgraded squad of marines for the difference in points should tell you something. Between 3x termicide and 2x3 oblits (if youre going to run oblits ofcourse), youll easily have 6 units with enough firepower.

I run 3 Defilers (kinda fun to shell the outa each other) khorne zerks and a nice tooled up khorne lord with chain fist all in rihnos

As a Guard player, I would be trying to wipe you off the table with my Medusae before you even got close. Failing that, Guardsmen are only going to be tying up your tough melee troops while the heavies back out of charge range line up their next shot.

Hence if I get rushed by berserkers I'll sacrifice some infantry so I can tear them apart while they're chasing the fleeing Guardsmen.

sourclams wrote:The problem that the IG player runs into, especially if he has Astropaths, is that his entire army has to sit there immobile waiting for the Deep Strikers to appear in order to really make effective use of his Inq+Mystics. In a Kill Point mission that's ... well, okay. In objectives missions that's failure.

If he's got Inq and Mystics deep strike your units and kill his transports while your rhinos roar forward to pop the tanks in the backfield.

If he refuses to move anything, then Deep Strike onto objectives and win.

That is the wrong way to play the IG definitely....and this is the reason why my inq + mystics also have warriors with meltas with them, and borrow a chimera....so that they can keep up with my mech component and also hit something too....and popping chimeras is not too easy as long as the IG player does not "line them up" evenly, but rather "leapfrogs" the chimeras, using the lead chimera (with smoke) and terrain as cover for the front and vulnerable sides....

I am not too scared of heavy armored things near my baseline, as they are mostly infantry surrounding artillery, and I keep 2 squads of Rough riders precisely to countercharge any heavy infantry that comes close to my lines, or to support my assault component....

Chaos has plenty of tools to take on Guard with.

Oblits are great, Winged Princes, Zerkers in HtH, Raptors, Termicide, Defilers.

I think of all the armies out there, Chaos is very well equipped to take on Guard. They are mostly fearless and an be very fast as well. It should be a good match up.

"IG players are the worst from my experience. I hate them."

You hate people that play a certain army? That is a pretty ridiculous thing to say.

freddieyu1 wrote:

sourclams wrote:The problem that the IG player runs into, especially if he has Astropaths, is that his entire army has to sit there immobile waiting for the Deep Strikers to appear in order to really make effective use of his Inq+Mystics. In a Kill Point mission that's ... well, okay. In objectives missions that's failure.

If he's got Inq and Mystics deep strike your units and kill his transports while your rhinos roar forward to pop the tanks in the backfield.

If he refuses to move anything, then Deep Strike onto objectives and win.

That is the wrong way to play the IG definitely....and this is the reason why my inq + mystics also have warriors with meltas with them, and borrow a chimera....so that they can keep up with my mech component and also hit something too....and popping chimeras is not too easy as long as the IG player does not "line them up" evenly, but rather "leapfrogs" the chimeras, using the lead chimera (with smoke) and terrain as cover for the front and vulnerable sides....

I am not too scared of heavy armored things near my baseline, as they are mostly infantry surrounding artillery, and I keep 2 squads of Rough riders precisely to countercharge any heavy infantry that comes close to my lines, or to support my assault component....

The chimera hopping doesnt work nearly as well as rhino hopping in my opinion. The reason being that the Chimera's side armour is 10, so that means you need to keep it straight when moving up the field. This also means youre a lot slower, especially if you alternate smoke.

I dont think sourclams is wrong with his strategy. The deepstriking units are supposed to be throw away units that help the troops move up the field. What happens to them after they do their job is irrelevant. Chaos doesnt depend on the deepstriking units after they land and shoot.

I just think he wastes a few too many points on some things, such as those 3 extra oblits. 2x3 Oblits deepstriking with TL meltas are going to do the job you need them to do, and they will die very easily, even to guardsmen.

Reecius wrote:

You hate people that play a certain army? That is a pretty ridiculous thing to say.

If you notice, it says in my experience. It's been the combination of the lame army and childish players.

How is the IG army Lame? It is a very flexible, customizable army with a ton of ways to play it. Great models, solid rules, what more could you want? If you play douche bags, then that sucks, but that hardly makes an army universally lame.

And how do you figure 2 oblits is better then 3?

3 is more survivable, and gives better odds to take out what you are shooting at. Deep striking oblits is a mistake IMO, that is what termicide is for.

Oblits sit in 4+ cover and fire las cannons. They can move and shoot as needs be to open up fire lanes, but I have always seen them used to best effect by acting as a shooting unit. They clean up the armor 12 vehicles that IG can bring in abundance.

Reecius wrote:How is the IG army Lame? It is a very flexible, customizable army with a ton of ways to play it. Great models, solid rules, what more could you want? If you play douche bags, then that sucks, but that hardly makes an army universally lame.

And how do you figure 2 oblits is better then 3?

3 is more survivable, and gives better odds to take out what you are shooting at. Deep striking oblits is a mistake IMO, that is what termicide is for.

Oblits sit in 4+ cover and fire las cannons. They can move and shoot as needs be to open up fire lanes, but I have always seen them used to best effect by acting as a shooting unit. They clean up the armor 12 vehicles that IG can bring in abundance.

Its my opinion that theyre lame. I think they would be my very last army in terms of choices. I dont like them, and I generally dont like the people who play them (a big difference between that and hating someone because they play IG).

As for the Oblits...3 oblits have more firepower than 2? Im shocked.

Did you also know that for that extra oblit in each squad, it tallies up to 225 points? Is the difference between 2 to 3 oblits worth that? No. They cannot individually target different units, so youre just going to overkill squads, or youre going to barely increase your odds. In this context, suiciding them in is a good choice. Having 3 instead of 2 (when theyre all going to die the next turn) doesnt add to the odds because 2 TLd meltas are going to get the job done.

Did you also know that oblits are completely fragile to long range fire, short range fire, and do horrendous in close combat? Did you know a single, regular lascannon has a 40% chance of killing an oblit?

This is the problem with far too many posts on here. People dont understand what opportunity cost is. Its like this statement here - 3 oblits is better than 2 oblits. Yes, this is true, but is it better than 2 oblits and 5 Chaos Space Marines? Theyre the same points. Is that extra oblit worth giving up 5 marines? If you take 2 oblits instead of 3, youre most of the way their to a termicide squad. Which is worth more?

So again, 2 oblits is better than 3, because 2 will do the job good enough and the extra points can buy something else that will be far more useful.

I've been playing a mechvet IG army of some variety since the codex came out.

Here are two units not really mentioned that I wouldn't really be that excited to see across from me.

4x autocannon havocs. I don't really have the firepower to handle very small, well spaced, 3+ save units that are super far away. I rely on my manticores and hydras to kill off lootas, but you'll be taking 3+s without going to ground on both of those.

autocannon/lascannon sponson preds. You don't have to worry about your side armor against my list, and my hydras don't match up well against AV13. My manticores 'can' kill you off, but with a rhino sized vehicle, you may draw out quite a few strike eagles before you drop.


Here are some units you might think I'd be scared of, but I'm just not....

obliterators. Are you using them as lascannons? Probably too expensive for lascannons, a suite of predators and havocs would kill light vehicles far more efficiently. Are you deep striking them? I've been facing off against deep striking melta for about 7 months now. I will deploy correctly, this will allow you to get only a single chimera with your melta, then whatever just fell out will eat your lunch with melta or plasma. It'll be a 55 point for 225 point trade almost every time.

plaguemarines. Outside of my multi-lasers, heavy flamers, and hydra autocannons, every gun in my army denies FNP. 17 special weapons all BS4 and strength 10 large blasts take away that FNP. Your guns are short range, so you've got to wade into death land to use them. Or stay pretty much impervious to my shooting but be farther away from me.

lash. Well this one is pretty obvious. Not one infantry unit worth more than 100 points in my list, exposing your prince to my entire army to yank one small IG unit into a charge or under a template will never be a good trade.


Unfortunately, the three units that I listed as being able to handle are your best three units against many other matchups. In the case of the obliterators, firing lascannons from them may be inefficient, but as they are suprememly matchup flexible, they are probably still what you should take. And as for plague marines, you notice I didn't mention a troop choice that is better than them. They are an excellent scoring unit, and should remain in your list if you have them. You just can't really use them as an offensive tool against a mechvet list. And as for lash, haven't you switched over to nurgle warptime yet?


I think sourclams suggestion has some merit. But it is a pure alpha strike list. And an alpha strike with no astropath or drop pod assault rule to add consistency to it. I could see my list getting overwhelmed by it with the right reserves rolls, but a wonky reserves roll and/or some unfavorable scatters could make a nice little piecemeal mop up operation for me.

Long range anti-armor 12, or fast T5/eternal warrior beaters in my lines on turn 2 are the best ways to slow me down. getting close and just trying to slug it out with a special weapon duel, or trying to kite me are probably not going to do as well.

Well shep, its funny you say that, because my Chaos heavy support is as follows:

Havocs - 4x autocannon, icon of chaos glory (~200)
Predator - Autocannon turret, Lascannon Sponsons (130)
Predator - Autocannon turret, Lascannon Sponsons (130)

It works magic.