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gaylord500 wrote:No question on the res orb part of things right now. If it wasn't available, the res orb will never be available to the dead(er?) Necrons.

For a regular WBB roll, however, does it say anywhere that if it's not done the turn after the models are killed, the models are removed? If it doesn't, then it's possible to roll the WBB two or three turns down the line, when other warriors move within 6" of the downed ones. If the downed models fail the roll then, they're removed. If they don't, they get up.

Right now, the only thing that seems to say you take it off even if you didn't roll is a 4th edition FAQ, and not even the final Necron FAQ of the 4th edition. So there's nothing that says you do that now.

So, your argument is that even though the Necrons are from 3rd edition, and even though 3rd and 4th editions state that the models are removed if they can't make a WBB roll, they remain on the table because 5th ed doesn't explicitly state that they must be removed. If there weren't anything in previous faqs then I might go with your understanding because it is kinda gray. However, there are, so I can't agree with you.

gaylord500 wrote:For a regular WBB roll, however, does it say anywhere that if it's not done the turn after the models are killed, the models are removed? If it doesn't, then it's possible to roll the WBB two or three turns down the line, when other warriors move within 6" of the downed ones. If the downed models fail the roll then, they're removed. If they don't, they get up.

Right now, the only thing that seems to say you take it off even if you didn't roll is a 4th edition FAQ, and not even the final Necron FAQ of the 4th edition. So there's nothing that says you do that now.

You have to read the rules, all the rules.
BRB says any models with 0 wounds are removed. They're not necessarily dead, they could be damaged, etc.
Necron codex says Necrons reduced to 0 wounds are laid on their sides to show they are damaged.
At the start of every Necron turn they may self-repair. You roll a D6 for every Necron capable of self-repair.
Self-repair doesn't work if damaged by a CCW that slows no armor save or a weapon twice the strength of the Necron's toughness.
Also, it (self-repair) only works if the damaged Necron is within 6" of a model of the same type.
If a Necron passes WBB it joins the nearest unit of the same type. If it fails it is removed as normal.
So right there we know that normally, damaged models are removed.
So what happens if a Necron is not capable of self-repair? Then it can't make a WBB rule, so it is removed, as normal.

The rules are written in a particular order for a reason. One builds upon the previous one.
First the necrons are damaged, and are laid down.
Next they may self repair.
Next, certain conditions disallow self-repair.
Last, where do we place the units that did self-repair.

Very clear when you follow the rules step by step.

Time Wizard, where does the step "Models not eligible to roll are removed" come from?

The WBB rules say to place the damaged Necrons on their side instead of removing them from play. It doesn't say anything at all about that being a temporary or one round matter, as you suggest. So on what basis can we conclude that the damaged state is temporary?

That's the thing. If I follow only what the current rules seem to say to do, it neither breaks everything or leaves me without guidance: Codex says to lay them on their side, but don't take them off except a roll between 1-3 on WBB (and stand them up if it's a 4-6). If there's no opportunity for a WBB roll, nothing seems to happen to these debris models, at least for the time being.

While I can think of a lot of times when it'd be more convenient or wouldn't matter just to take them off, sometimes these debris will be able to get a WBB roll the turn after next or later. The Codex says a WBB roll happens every Necron turn. The WBB rule doesn't say it can only happen on the turn after the models are placed on their side. Not only that, it says it may happen, so the Necron player has the option to wait a turn to take it, for whatever reason.

So if this is something the 5th edition ruleset has given back to the Necrons, it's in keeping with its fluff.

solkan wrote:Time Wizard, where does the step "Models not eligible to roll are removed" come from?

The WBB rules say to place the damaged Necrons on their side instead of removing them from play. It doesn't say anything at all about that being a temporary or one round matter, as you suggest. So on what basis can we conclude that the damaged state is temporary?

Well, ya got me! It doesn't say specifically that the Necrons not eligible are removed, not in so many words. It also doesn't state that laying the damaged models on their side is temporary.
I know that GW FAQs are either taken or ignored by many people, but sometimes you have to look at a FAQ as an insight into the intent of the designer.
The Chapter Approved FAQ says that damaged Necrons that are not eligible to make a WBB roll are removed. Let's look at why.

The main rules say that when a model is reduced to 0 wounds it is removed from play. This happens immediately. Except that if a model is in an assault and will strike blows simultaneously with an enemy model. In that case, lay one side's wounded models on their side unitl they attack back. So here we have an exception to the remove models immediately rule.

We have another exception in the Necrons. At the start of each turn, you roll for each Necron capable of self-repair. But since it happens at the start of the turn, damaged Necrons are laid on their sides until you determine if they are eligible. But if any Necron model doesn't meet the criteria to attempt WBB as specified in their codex, they would be removed as per the main rules.

The Necrons confuse the issue further with another exception found under the monolith entry, but those rules also include the mechanics of how to give models that failed WBB another shot at it.

Time Wizard,
I'm confused by your response. You appear to be referring to the Chapter Approved FAQ, but your example is from the assault phase rules. You also gloss over the fact that the assault phase rules do not say that the models are placed on their side "instead of being removed as a casualty".

Yes, it's shocking that people have been playing incorrectly because of old, superseded FAQ answer. It doesn't change the fact that the only reason to remove ineligible damaged necrons is "That's how it's always been done."

gaylord500 wrote:For a regular WBB roll, however, does it say anywhere that if it's not done the turn after the models are killed, the models are removed? If it doesn't, then it's possible to roll the WBB two or three turns down the line, when other warriors move within 6" of the downed ones. If the downed models fail the roll then, they're removed. If they don't, they get up.

What do you do with Necrons hit by Str 10 weapons? By the way you're reading the rulebook wouldn't they be left on their side until a Lord with a Res Orb came close enough to them to allow a WBB? The denial for Str 10 and power weapons et al is the same paragraph and description style as denial due to lack of unit within 6". They cannot make a WBB roll if killed by a power weapon. Ergo they stay on the table and when the Res Orb wanders close enough they WBB.

"When a Necron has either failed a WBB roll or is ineligible to take one at the start of the Necron turn it is deemed to be destroyed and is removed, unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to teleport the unit during the current move. If for some reason you change your mind about using the portal, they are removed immediately."

I may be a new necron player, but i believe that is right..

edit: I didn't realize that this rule was already brought up, my bad.

Thor665 wrote:They cannot make a WBB roll if killed by a power weapon. Ergo they stay on the table and when the Res Orb wanders close enough they WBB.

Sure. Except the current FAQ says:

Q. When is the range of the resurrection orb checked? At the time the Necron becomes damaged or at the start of the turn when WBB is rolled for?
A. Check range when a Necron becomes damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that point, leave the damaged Necron on the board. Otherwise, immediately remove it from the table as a casualty.

The Necron FAQ has clarified the "within 6" of [the Necron Lord]" by the Resurrection Orb to mean within 6" at the time the model was struck. No FAQ or rules currently exist to say debris come off if there's no WBB roll, although they'll never successfully stand up in a lot of situations (so may as well be removed).

Noobtodagame wrote:Tbh how it was explained to me for this purpose when I first started playing (with crons') Was an example Of Ap 3 weapons with a 3+ armour save. Since the AP3 weapon is better than the armour save the model is ineligible to make the save thus auto failing it. If you are not eligible for a WWBB roll due to no units of the same type/spyder in the correct distance the models are destroyed and they cannot sit around and wait for an attempt. Sorry if that sounded a little confusing but it was how I learned it.

AP has no effect on WBB. The only time a denied armour save has an effect on WBB is by a CCW.