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grankobot wrote:

Davicus wrote:So this guy brought a non competitive list and got a 6th overall? ICIC.

I love nonsense :-)

And before any1 else starts giving dumb opinions, please make sure you are an ork player, and is someone who have played at least more than a 100 games with orks.

Otherwise, it is just a waste of my time.

You don't need to play a hundred games with/against orks to know that trukks are bad, you just need a basic grasp on the rules and the ability to walk without dragging your knuckles on the floor. 340 points of nobz that will never see combat, or 420 points of nobz that are guaranteed to do something? Hmm. Gotta think that one through a little.

Target saturation is key, but it works with all units, not just trukks. Your one battlewagon routinely getting shot down? Then bring 3. Don't base your army around the weakest transport in the game or you'll find yourself playing a foot list by the end of turn 2.

So Mr Genius, may I know your overall ranking in Ard Boyz? Were you placed better than 6th overall?

Chill with the ad hominem.

You may have had good games with trukks - I can tell you it isn't because trukks are good. He might have had some good games with trukks - maybe his opponents had lists just as poorly constructed as his. There are dozens and dozens of ways somebody can win in spite of having a poorly constructed list, just because he placed well doesn't mean trukks are suddenly the gak. If you build your army around a huge weak point, don't be surprised when a smart player takes advantage of it.

The fact that I didn't play in hard boyz doesn't invalidate my point, so stop being so obtuse and actually think about what I'm saying instead of indulging your "UR RONG!" reflex.

Anyway, after looking at the list referenced at the top of this thread ( http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/10/battle-report-ard-boys-round-3.html ) I can already see where it makes sense to make room for the battlewagons - drop 2 PKs from each nob unit (when will you ever need a full unit of 10 klaws anyway?) and the truck, and you have almost enough points for 3 bare bones battlewagons right there. You can mix up the wargear on the nobz even more to make complex units to lower their point cost and improve their survivability while giving them a better transport on top of that.

What's not to like. There are just too many reasons to not use trukks.

IME, the Trukk will move 19" and die. however, most of the time 19" is enough+a good waaah to get you a Turn 2 charge. It just depends on how many times he had to shoot the trukk to kill it (and if/how far they karreened) In a trukk spam list though, you need something to convince your opponent to go to the center where you can get at him easier, his list didn't have that, instead it had Ghaz, in his other games a big waaagh from Ghaz was probably enough to get to the enemy and pound them, but breaking into castled IG is hard, even with Ghaz's waaagh.

Davicus wrote:

sourclams wrote:3 squads of MANz slowly walking across the field after their Trukks died are far less terrifying than the Manz that actually got there because the Battlewagon didn't die to heavy bolters.

You obviously didnt even understand our point above, did you? I wouldnt even waste my time playing with you


NEXT

I'm an ork player, so I'll weigh in.

Let's see, the claim being made by Davicus is that three trukks are more survivable then a battlewagon, because there are three of them.

Let's see. How many Imperial Weapons can deal with battlewagons on turn 1.
I'm seeing Lascannons, Missile launchers, all forms of artillery, conversion beamers from suitably far away, mobile assault cannons (with the rend). In later turns you add in Meltas and CC attacks.

How about Trukks?
First, take everything that can pop a BW on turn one and add it to the list, except make it 2-3 times more likely to penetrate (in some cases it's automatic). Immediately, we're looking at double to triple chances of popping a trukk from those same weapons. Clearly, an army that can pop one BW turn one can pop 2 trukks turn one with just their heaviest weapons.
Then, you add in everything that couldn't quite damage the BW, but rock Trukks hard. Plasma, multilasers, Autocannons, heavy bolters. Also dangerous to trukks are Heavy Flamers, bolters, bolt pistols, and assaults.

So, against, say, a standard Mech IG force, you've got enough dedicated anti tank weapons to make life tough for BWs, which equals enough to make life tough for multiple trukks. Then enough Multilasers and medium strength weaponry to blast apart trukks with ease.

Seriously, 3 trukks is as survivable, or less survivable than 1 BW. Why do you think we see Ork BW spam lists in tourneys, but rarely a trukk spam list?

grankobot wrote:You may have had good games with trukks - I can tell you it isn't because trukks are good. He might have had some good games with trukks - maybe his opponents had lists just as poorly constructed as his. There are dozens and dozens of ways somebody can win in spite of having a poorly constructed list, just because he placed well doesn't mean trukks are suddenly the gak. If you build your army around a huge weak point, don't be surprised when a smart player takes advantage of it.

LOL, so I see. His opponents in Ard Boyz final were crap. He was just PLAIN lucky to be able to make it that far. I cant think of anything to invalidate your fallacious argument here

grankobot wrote:The fact that I didn't play in hard boyz doesn't invalidate my point, so stop being so obtuse and actually think about what I'm saying instead of indulging your "UR RONG!" reflex.

The fact that your comments sounds quite flawed to me makes me want to look for something else to substantiate your reasoning. The fact that you have NOTHING makes your comments even less significant. Oh, and being rude don't make you look less stupid

grankobot wrote:Anyway, after looking at the list referenced at the top of this thread ( http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/10/battle-report-ard-boys-round-3.html ) I can already see where it makes sense to make room for the battlewagons - drop 2 PKs from each nob unit (when will you ever need a full unit of 10 klaws anyway?) and the truck, and you have almost enough points for 3 bare bones battlewagons right there. You can mix up the wargear on the nobz even more to make complex units to lower their point cost and improve their survivability while giving them a better transport on top of that.

FYi, his nobz were knitted out properly. Even if there were room, I will use the points for stormboyz, reasons which I mentioned already.

grankobot wrote:There are just too many reasons to not use trukks.

Haven't seen any worthy reason yet.

Orkestra wrote:How about Trukks?
First, take everything that can pop a BW on turn one and add it to the list, except make it 2-3 times more likely to penetrate (in some cases it's automatic). Immediately, we're looking at double to triple chances of popping a trukk from those same weapons. Clearly, an army that can pop one BW turn one can pop 2 trukks turn one with just their heaviest weapons.
Then, you add in everything that couldn't quite damage the BW, but rock Trukks hard. Plasma, multilasers, Autocannons, heavy bolters. Also dangerous to trukks are Heavy Flamers, bolters, bolt pistols, and assaults.

Alot of those you mentioned above arent going to be in range to hit the trukks on turn 1. If they are in range, you are playing trukks wrongly. Then of cos, it is user problem, dont blame the tools. And if you are afraid of say flamers destroying your trukks WHEN you are ALREADY close in range, then don't play orks, cause you dont even know the purpose of a transport.

Orkestra wrote:Seriously, 3 trukks is as survivable, or less survivable than 1 BW. Why do you think we see Ork BW spam lists in tourneys, but rarely a trukk spam list?

Thats because you arent seeing enough?

And BTW, I didnt say BW spam list is bad. I am just saying which is better. To add on to my point, the fact that trukks go flat out 18 inch and wagons cant, means that if you started first, you are almost already guaranteed a 2nd turn charge and a win. Not that you will alwaz start first, juz that 18 inch and 12 inch makes a great difference.

Davicus wrote:He was just PLAIN lucky to be able to make it that far. I cant think of anything to invalidate your fallacious argument here

Well actually, I read some of the comments on BolS, he based his army on his ability to roll well for 4+ saves.

So yes, he was lucky But like I said, if your unlucky you lost already, trukks or battlewagons

Also reading the report again, it was closer than it looks it seems, each side made moves in desperation by the end of it, but by the time his units reached the IG gunline, there weren't enough of them left (and getting charged by the inquisitor was bad, but that was good generalship on the part of the IG player, and getting the force weapon wound on the painboy was also not good, having Ghaz's nobz run away, but the WAAAGH turned that around fast, and got 40 nobs right up to those tanks.)

Edit: I actually can't think of a reason to not use a trukk, I can see a reason to use the battlewagon over it, but I can't see a reason to not use a trukk, I mean it's a dirt cheep transport and it's a fast vehicle, what more could orks want? Do you have a better way to move 12 sluggaboyz 19" per turn? ...if you say warbikes.... >:|

starbomber109 wrote:Well actually, I read some of the comments on BolS, he based his army on his ability to roll well for 4+ saves.

Did he have a Big Mek, or do you mean terrain covers?

starbomber109 wrote:Also reading the report again, it was closer than it looks it seems, each side made moves in desperation by the end of it, but by the time his units reached the IG gunline, there weren't enough of them left (and getting charged by the inquisitor was bad, but that was good generalship on the part of the IG player, and getting the force weapon wound on the painboy was also not good, having Ghaz's nobz run away, but the WAAAGH turned that around fast, and got 40 nobs right up to those tanks.)

Yes, thats because he was facing a strong list as well. Add in the fact that he started 2nd. He put up a good match. And also like I said, it MAY have been alot better if stormboyz were used instead of nobs in trukks. He would have alot more units to cover his assault gaps.

Davicus wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:Well actually, I read some of the comments on BolS, he based his army on his ability to roll well for 4+ saves.

Did he have a Big Mek, or do you mean terrain covers?

I think the comment was actually about FNP, but the armor is also 4+, as is vehicle cover, there are a lot of 4+ saves in the ork army


There was also a bit of IG generalship that I missed before, he moved half his tanks away from his gunline to try and draw trukks apart, and it worked, he also kept his vehicles in motion, so the orks would have a hard time hitting them in CC. All in all it looked like an amazing game!

Davicus wrote:blah blah blah

Dude, if you just happen to have a boner for trukks for your own reasons, then just say so, but don't try to pass them off as useful in a competitive list because you happen to like them for no good reason. New people come to this forum for ideas and help to build their own armies, none of us want to see them set off to spend hundreds of dollars on crappy units and then get burned out on the game because they wasted their cash on poor advice.

You like trucks? Your choice. Try to say trucks are good? Well, it's you against everyone else on that one.

LOL, so I see. His opponents in Ard Boyz final were crap. He was just PLAIN lucky to be able to make it that far. I cant think of anything to invalidate your fallacious argument here

Nice job taking my example of a possibility as an absolute. I'm not saying that his opponents sucked (though if they routinely lost to a trukk spamming list it wouldn't surprise me), only that "HE WON WITH TRUKKS< DEY R GUD" doesn't make any sense. The trukks aren't the only variable in play here and we're not looking at them in a vacuum. Maybe his opponents were bad. Maybe he overmeasured his movement. Maybe he had loaded dice. Who knows, none of us played him! What's most likely is that he is a very good player who did well IN SPITE of his trucks, not BECAUSE of them. I have no doubt if a player can place so well with such a poorly constructed list then they can do far better with a decent one.

Also, if you think giving every nob the same equipment in a unit is viable then you need to lay off the dope. The best reason for taking units like that is that you can easily make them complex for wound allocation (and in this case he'd even save points, for say, some battlewagons...)

The bottom line is:

Taking an expensive unit and then giving them a built in weakness is stupid. Relying on an armor 10 open topped vehicle for effectiveness is stupid. Thinking that kareeeeeeeeem will get you where you need to go is stupid.

But is is orky. I'll concede that.

Davicus, you are new here. You need to relax and chill. There are many ways to make a point, and insulting long time members is not the right one.

Are trukks good? Yes.
Are trukks fun? Yes.
Are trukk armies viable as a competitive build? Doubtful.

I have been playing 40k for a LONG time. I have been playing orks for many years, and I consider myself a good general. There is no way I am taking trukks alone.

You saying "most weapons cant reach them on 1 and if they can you are doing it wrong" is an ignorant statement to make. You obviously either have no grasp of the capabilities of anything but orks or play terrible players with no concept of deploying against a weak all trukk list.

Please, if you want to debate an issue, debate it, but your arrogant, self-serving attitude is not conducive to a rational, level-headed discussion.

Tone it down or shut it up pally.

Davicus wrote:

Orkestra wrote:How about Trukks?
First, take everything that can pop a BW on turn one and add it to the list, except make it 2-3 times more likely to penetrate (in some cases it's automatic). Immediately, we're looking at double to triple chances of popping a trukk from those same weapons. Clearly, an army that can pop one BW turn one can pop 2 trukks turn one with just their heaviest weapons.
Then, you add in everything that couldn't quite damage the BW, but rock Trukks hard. Plasma, multilasers, Autocannons, heavy bolters. Also dangerous to trukks are Heavy Flamers, bolters, bolt pistols, and assaults.

Alot of those you mentioned above arent going to be in range to hit the trukks on turn 1. If they are in range, you are playing trukks wrongly. Then of cos, it is user problem, dont blame the tools. And if you are afraid of say flamers destroying your trukks WHEN you are ALREADY close in range, then don't play orks, cause you dont even know the purpose of a transport.

Orkestra wrote:Seriously, 3 trukks is as survivable, or less survivable than 1 BW. Why do you think we see Ork BW spam lists in tourneys, but rarely a trukk spam list?

Thats because you arent seeing enough?

And BTW, I didnt say BW spam list is bad. I am just saying which is better. To add on to my point, the fact that trukks go flat out 18 inch and wagons cant, means that if you started first, you are almost already guaranteed a 2nd turn charge and a win. Not that you will alwaz start first, juz that 18 inch and 12 inch makes a great difference.

Ah yes, I see that my problem was in failing to consider that every game consists of 'move flat out, get shot at, get out and kill everything'. Right, That totally escaped my notice. It's so useful how my opponents always bunch up, deploy right on the 12" line, and just wait for me to come to them. It would also be silly to think that in, say, an objectives mission I might even want to put some troops back in to grab that tasty objective. Much easier with something that's not made of wet cardboard.

Let's look at 'in range of the trukks on turn one'. We're seeing usually a 24" range on those suckers. Which, conveniently is far enough that you have to spend a turn inside their threat range. Let's assume a smart opponent who doesn't deploy as far forward as possible when playing Trukk Orks. So, you move flat out, and are still most likely more than 12" away (orks going first means opponent gets reactive deployment) So you're still looking at slogging those 72 boys for at least a turn if those trukks get popped.

If Orks go second, you've still got to deal with first turn long range shooting, slowing you down, then you move forwards 18", your opponent moves away from you to get some more shooting in, and you're looking at walking some more boyz downfield. I've been there and done that. Trukks are straight up not as survivable as BW spam. Can the list do well? Sure. 6-8 trukks with other fast elements can saturate the field and cause the enemy to have some hard choices to make about targetting. However, unlike a BW, you really need to hit with multiple trukks, or those Ork Boyz prove that they really are worth 6 points each. It's riskier than BW spam. It can hit as hard as hell, but it doesn't have the staying power.

Also, note that my above evaluation is a little harsh, and assumes a primarily shooty force. Obviously this isn't always the case.

I think Trukkboyz makes for a fun and solid list. I don't think it's as good as putting your troops in Battlewagons (I've run mixed BW/trukk lists to good success, mind you, using the AV14 wall to protect the squishies first turn) but I'm not trying to say that one should never do it. What I'm after is discussing the actual merits of the different options, to combat blanket statements backed up by an inflammatory, arrogant tone.

Oh, and good catch on the heavy flamers. I was definitely trying to warn people that HFs are deadly for your trukks. I was listing all of the myriad things that can BBQ trukks and can't touch Battlewagons. Though, I'm well aware that taking things out of context and ridiculing them is a time honoured tradition when you've got nothing but bluster and a supreme sense of self-righteousness. It's not your fault you didn't have any other ammo.

Davicus, there are many ways to disagree with someone on Dakka without breaking the rules; you have managed to avoid all of them.

Click on Rule #1 in my signature for the Dakka rules. You violated Rule #1 (be polite) pretty early on in this thread, and never recovered.

Failure to follow the Dakka rules in the future will result in disciplinary action.

Thank you.

grankobot wrote:Dude, if you just happen to have a boner for trukks for your own reasons, then just say so, but don't try to pass them off as useful in a competitive list because you happen to like them for no good reason. New people come to this forum for ideas and help to build their own armies, none of us want to see them set off to spend hundreds of dollars on crappy units and then get burned out on the game because they wasted their cash on poor advice.

You like trucks? Your choice. Try to say trucks are good? Well, it's you against everyone else on that one.

Me only? I dont think so. It is evident that I am not the only one going for that kind of build. Oh, and I am definitely not trying to force you or anyone else into accepting the idea. In fact, I am glad only the minority can appreciate the idea, cause thats what differentiates the better player from the average player.

grankobot wrote:Also, if you think giving every nob the same equipment in a unit is viable then you need to lay off the dope. The best reason for taking units like that is that you can easily make them complex for wound allocation (and in this case he'd even save points, for say, some battlewagons...)

Erm, he did equip for wound allocation. Not going to waste time on this since you didnt even get the facts right.

grankobot wrote:Taking an expensive unit and then giving them a built in weakness is stupid. Relying on an armor 10 open topped vehicle for effectiveness is stupid. Thinking that kareeeeeeeeem will get you where you need to go is stupid.

THe fact that you cant appreciate his idea doesnt mean his build is stupid. You might be the one who is stupid.

Inigo Montoya wrote:I have been playing 40k for a LONG time. I have been playing orks for many years, and I consider myself a good general. There is no way I am taking trukks alone.

You saying "most weapons cant reach them on 1 and if they can you are doing it wrong" is an ignorant statement to make. You obviously either have no grasp of the capabilities of anything but orks or play terrible players with no concept of deploying against a weak all trukk list.

I am presenting a fact based on experience. The fact that you cant do it and I can doesnt make my statement an arrogant one.

Inigo Montoya wrote:Please, if you want to debate an issue, debate it, but your arrogant, self-serving attitude is not conducive to a rational, level-headed discussion.

Tone it down or shut it up pally.

I actually presented my arguments throughout the discussion. Maybe you should shut it up?

I play mech IG. My vehicles all have 36" range and S6 guns. How exactly are you preventing me from reaching your trukks?

There are ways to make Trukks more survivable to be sure, but there is no way to prevent giving an IG player a turn to shoot those trukks at range. Maybe, maybe you take enough trukks that the Nobs are hidden, but then they're farther away from the fighting.

The other problem with your reasoning is that while 3 trukks may or may not be as survivable as 3 battlewagons, these choices aren't made in a vacuum. As add ons to an already expensive unit, The question isn't "3 40pt or 1 120pt transport?" but "Do I take a 420pt unit and cut something else, or take a less durable 340pt unit and more stuff." The opportunity cost isn't the other two trukks, it's the other 80pts worth of stuff you can take.

the problem I see is that building a unit to be the linchpin of an army and than not spending 80pts to dramatically increase the odds of it reaching combat seems ill advised.

Me only? I dont think so. It is evident that I am not the only one going for that kind of build. Oh, and I am definitely not trying to force you or anyone else into accepting the idea. In fact, I am glad only the minority can appreciate the idea, cause thats what differentiates the better player from the average player.

No, it just makes you stubborn.

Erm, he did equip for wound allocation. Not going to waste time on this since you didnt even get the facts right.

Elaborate. I see this in his list:

10-Gray Nobz w/ truck powerklaws cybork with pain boy and banner

Which I interepret as ONE painboy, ONE with banner, and EIGHT remaining nobz with identical gear.

This means he's got only 3 unique "types" in his unit. His painboy and bannerdude are relatively safe, but if he takes more than one wound for "the rest" then he has to remove a whole model. If more of them had little differences (even if it's useless crap you'd just forget about in game) then you could give out wounds one at a time instead of having to pull models steadily. Make sense?

THe fact that you cant appreciate his idea doesnt mean his build is stupid. You might be the one who is stupid.

Did you just "no u" me? Really?

I actually presented my arguments throughout the discussion. Maybe you should shut it up?

Since suddenly you're all about facts, I'll give you a list of reasons why trukks are bad.

1 - Armor 10.
2 - Open topped with no option for a closed top.
3 - Impossible to hide stuff behind, which is a major advantage to closed top transports like rhinos and chimeras. Hint: I can see you through the holes in your open topped vehicle. Nice try though.
4 - BS 2. GG useless model after your guys are disembarked.
5 - No twin-linked. Why do they even have guns?
6 - When (WHEN) your trukk gets popped it'll most likely kill just enough of your guys to make them not-so-fearless anymore. What's up failed pinning check. Hello there next turn morale test.
7 - Two of the three possible destroyed results for Trukks remove the model from the game entirely meaning you don't even get cover from your crappy excuse for a ride. Nice.

But they're fast! They're oh so fast! Are they really though?

19" of movement, rolling for difficult terrain as normal, and can't pass over models (friendly or enemy), and can't tank shock. Think about that for a moment.

So 150 pt wall of kroot can stop your ENTIRE 2500 POINT ARMY unless they choose to disembark? My god, I believe they can. How about that!

Trukks are bad. If you win regularly with them you need to move on from your stagnant gaming community and try your hand at some real competition.

You forgot a reinforced ram grankobot, which is vital gear for every trukk.

If you going to use ork VEHICLES there are two manditory upgrades, Reinforced Ram and Red Paint. On a trukk this is all you will ever need as the trukk won't live long enough to make use of the other upgrades. Reinforced Ram lets you tank shock, lets you reroll difficult terrain, ect, ect.

However, I think that a trukkfull of nobs works better as a kind of hammer and anvil unit, not as a basis for an army. 10 nobs with 3-4 PKs is scarry, but if they are sitting in an open topped AV10 vehicle that has nothing to hide behind...that won't end well. 5 Trukks full of boyz are more scarry.

Picture the wall of kroot scenario, Tau blow up four trukks full of boyz, one karrens to the table edge (so it's gone, woo, I lost 151 points), one karreens straight into the kroot, and the other two slam into the fire warriors! And 4 trukks of boyz is very cheep, so you still need to worry about the REST of his army. (Edit2: Seccondly, when the trukk explodes that's S3, against T4 you need 5's to wound, but against T3 that's 4s, I'm thinking more firewarriors or guardsmen will die from that then orks)

Edit3: And I'll bring up this bit too, if those had been trukks of nobz, ok, 10 nobz hitting the kroot and 20 nobz hitting the FW, but I lost 600 points or so from just one trukk, and those four trukks are likely to be most of my army. So, @ the original post, 10 nobz in a trukk w/ pklaws, cyborks, banner, poles, ect. They are effective, an ARMY of nobz? Not so much, only if your lucky.

No, Davicus doesn't know me. If he did then he wouldn't have a winning record with trukks.

Also, as I said earlier, you can't rely on your trukks to kareeeeeeeeen to a place that is advantageous for you. First you have to roll the result. Then you have to scatter a good direction and distance. Then you have to hope the crash doesn't kill or pin your squad. If this series of unlikely events comes to pass then you're left with a severely understrength non-fearless ork "mob" who will just be immediately shot down by a shooty army (it doesn't take my whole army to kill all of your crappy transports, y'know) or won't have enough manz left to be a threat to any other kind of army. You'll just get beaten in combat and then run down with your initiative 2.

Good game plans are built on reliable tactics, not "well if I do this then this MIGHT happen.."

Oh, and it's not really relevant to the discussion, but if the tau player is dumb enough to expose his fire warriors (or even take enough of them to be exposed) he deserves to be beaten by a trukk army.

grankobot wrote:
Anyway, after looking at the list referenced at the top of this thread ( http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2009/10/battle-report-ard-boys-round-3.html ) I can already see where it makes sense to make room for the battlewagons - drop 2 PKs from each nob unit (when will you ever need a full unit of 10 klaws anyway?) and the truck, and you have almost enough points for 3 bare bones battlewagons right there. You can mix up the wargear on the nobz even more to make complex units to lower their point cost and improve their survivability while giving them a better transport on top of that.

Just to clarify, he did not have all Klaws in the Nob squads. He had only two Klaws per squad, rest had Big Choppas.

That makes a lot more sense. Thank you for clarifying.

Point still stands about the trukks though.

starbomber109 wrote:You forgot a reinforced ram grankobot, which is vital gear for every trukk.

If you going to use ork VEHICLES there are two manditory upgrades, Reinforced Ram and Red Paint. On a trukk this is all you will ever need as the trukk won't live long enough to make use of the other upgrades. Reinforced Ram lets you tank shock, lets you reroll difficult terrain, ect, ect.

However, I think that a trukkfull of nobs works better as a kind of hammer and anvil unit, not as a basis for an army. 10 nobs with 3-4 PKs is scarry, but if they are sitting in an open topped AV10 vehicle that has nothing to hide behind...that won't end well. 5 Trukks full of boyz are more scarry.

Edit3: And I'll bring up this bit too, if those had been trukks of nobz, ok, 10 nobz hitting the kroot and 20 nobz hitting the FW, but I lost 600 points or so from just one trukk, and those four trukks are likely to be most of my army. So, @ the original post, 10 nobz in a trukk w/ pklaws, cyborks, banner, poles, ect. They are effective, an ARMY of nobz? Not so much, only if your lucky.

You ve got most of the points quite right. Adding to your point on the army of nobz. Again, I didnt think it wld be as efficient as 3 full troops of stormboyz + some other fast attacks (since 3 troops of stormboyz cost much lesser, giving you more room for other units).
And btw, it is best not to add RPJ as an upgrade. I keep my trukks as cheap as possible and only give half of my trukks reinforce rams.

Well, some people just didnt even get the facts right regarding the original army list and started posting rubbish. He reminds me of Dash Of Pepper, another guy who types alot of nonsense, brags, but with no substance. The best way to deal with this kind of people is to ignore :-).