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Alan that's quite sad you succumb to peer pressure at your age.

Here is how I would run them:

join w. Librarian/terminator armor, stormshield, GoI

multi-melta, meltagun, combi melta


G

Green Blow Fly wrote:
join w. Librarian/terminator armor, stormshield, GoI

multi-melta, meltagun, combi melta


G

I like this idea, the only thing I would change is the guns, I'd much rather shoot at infantry with them for some reason (a couple of BS4 relentless heavy bolters will screw up anything with a 4+ save)

The Melta loadout (MM, Meltagun, C-M, PF) is the only way I can see a real use for these. You can more accurately deep strike them in the backfield to eat long-range armor support like Predators and Russes and Whirlwinds and Basilisks. They drop, fire, and thanks to 3++, can withstand the inevitable return barrage from the now-threatened tank guns like Battle Cannons, that would normally AP.

Killy-est? No. Able to threaten an armor squadron for several turns and not automatically folding at the first AP3- template that gets tossed at them? Yes.

As Blackmoor said, these guys have more durability than offensive power, but that has it's place.

I still agree they are heavily overcosted.

@GeneralRetreat:

Killy-est? No. Able to threaten an armor squadron for several turns and not automatically folding at the first AP3- template that gets tossed at them? Yes.

Dreads do the same for cheaper, don't care about AP3, nor any other ap save 1.

But as you say/agree, they are overcosted for what you get.
But here's the thing, they are now in optimal small arms range, a range that would normally have nothing to shoot in the first place. The hvy weapons can happily do what they wanted to do in the first place and the supporting elements can cost effectively shoot at the LoTD with more effective options.

@Green Blow Fly:

Libby with GOI, are you suggesting you can use the Re-roll when the Libby is joined to them?
I don't think that's allowed as the Libby is not a Legion of The Damned model, I'm not sure how these interact together, so I may be pointing to an issue that needs no pointing at...but it strikes me as "I don't think you can benefit from that."

But I don't have my rulebooks on me.

Dreads can also be destroyed with a single shot. A squad has wounds which must be whittled away, which makes them more resilient overall, especially with 3++ standard.

Yes, the Librarian Gate trick works. If you read the wording for GoI, the unit is removed and replaced within 24" using the Deep Strike rules. The Legion allows a re-roll to any scatter on a Deep Strike roll. Perfectly compatible, and a good synergy, I think. The Librarian in TDA with SS shares the 3++ save, and adds a WS5 Force Weapon, A Psychic Hood, 2 wounds, and another psychic power to the squad.

Still not a powerhouse of CC power, but much more formidable. I keep hearing people come back to death by small-arms fire, but there are plenty of armies who love to leave armor behind while the infantry charges forward. And anyone who uses the Legion would know to put them somewhere to mitigate the amount of small-arms fire potential.

I think this is probably the best unit I can think of for dealing with Indirect-firing Artillery squadrons that are hidden out of LOS to your main fire base (which of course they will be).

Sure, IC Dreads, MM/HF Landspeeders, and Tacticals in Drop Pods can accomplish the same goal, but none with the same resilience. Space Marines ALWAYS have to balance the tradeoff between utility, killing power, and resilience. Sometimes, you need the resilience more than anything else. IMO, a super-resilient unit that can accurately deep-strike is a gap in the list that needed to be filled.

Reduce the cost by just 10%, and I'll bet everyone would play them. They're so expensive just to keep from being the flavor of the week.

You take 10 that's 305pts yes it would take work to kill them. Now add the extra points for the weapons ... 20pts on a melta gun, 30pts on a Multi-melta, 10pts on a Combi-Melta. 365pts now lets add the librarian 100pts+ terminator armour & storm shield 40pts ... so 11 models racks up a respectable 505pts of your army ...


... Yes they're hard to kill but the point is they're no harder to kill then regular space marines. 3+ inv means nothing if your shooting at them with large volumes of small arms fire.

And anyone who uses the Legion would know to put them somewhere to mitigate the amount of small-arms fire potential.


(I think you missed that)

Why does everyone assume that people are going to plop down a unit right where it benifits the opponent? And if you turn your tacticals around 180 degrees and charge them backwards to rapid-fire something, haven't I just accomplished something by breaking your tempo?

Or is that something else everyone overlooked?

Well, you are also assuming players consistantly leave the tanks back and infantry leave them behind to 'un'support them.

Why is it always an advance? Back tracking is certainly a viable tactic, you could just be helping the army as likely as you'd be 'breaking' the tempo.

I think, at most, they are one trick pony.

Anyway, I think the issue you and prob. some others have is the vacuum aspect.

Maybe lets see some lists and some combos that those who use LoTD use?
Maybe that would furthur this discussion?

Yes, dreads can die to one shot, but they offer armor saturation for a cheap price.
You get what you pay for.
A squad of Legion can die to a single shot/salvo, or more importantly, a unique unit with say... a hvy or special weapon could die early as the squad sizes are usually low and they MUST be in circle formation should they DS in and shoot rather than run.

If i was playing orks i would charge them if they were in the way. Otherwise I'd ignore them and get them on the return. Lootas would also make a mess.

If i was playing eldar I'd doom you and drop some large templates on you from my 2 remaining fire prisms (if you haven't killed the 3rd that one as well)

If i was playing space marines and had librarian I'd null zone them and hit them with what ever was to hand ... bolter ect .... then charge them with a tactical squad. They may lose due to a power fist/power weapon but other wise they're equal. (note i know LotD have 2A but if they charge so does a tactical squad)

If i was playing IG i'd turn the flash lights on you and FRFSRF

Nids well have to wait and see what they get in their new codex at the moment hitting them with a unit of WON guants within synapse range is probably the simplest solution


"And anyone who uses the Legion would know to put them somewhere to mitigate the amount of small-arms fire potential. " Yes we can both play that game ... if i know your taking LotD as a good player i'll make sure you can't deploy them without giving me an easy time killing them or for them to be in a useless position.

With 3++, what single shot/salvo is going to wipe them?

Even if you're dropping a Str10 AP1 large blast template on them, 2/3 are going to survive on average.

Also, how does a Dropped Dread constitute Armor Saturation? It doesn't. It's operating alone, deep in enemy territory, and is absolutely begging to be ganked. Even in a pair, with the current melta saturation, you're playing into the enemy hands.

Dropping a Legion in the same spot will cause disruption longer. This is the same argument as between a Predator and a Devestator Squad. Sure, the tank has AV13, so somethings won't hurt it at all, but the right weapon will destroy it in one shot. No matter what kind of weapon, it takes 10 unsaved wounds to get rid of the Devestators.

Now, how exactly can you theorize that two AV12 vehicles are going to last longer than 10 T4 3++ save infantry models? That's simply incorrect.

Simple fact people roll 1and2 enough of anything will kill them.

Why would you bother dropping a Large blast even with Str10 AP 1 on them? If your guard you should be hitting them with the Large blast Str6 AP4.

Wo wo wo.
10 LoTD?
That's 300ISH points naked.

You should then boost that up to 4 AV 12 vehicles to actually even the cost.

2 Dreads, MM, Hvy FLamer in pods is exactly 300, still cheaper than the kitted out LoTD.
With geared LoTD that goes into the 350's....

___________________________

As to the death in one shot. It can happen, I'm not saying it's likely.
You made a comment that dreads can die to one shot, well so can LoTD...

What ever is shooting the dread is still a unit shooting at it. Both can be distractions.
And that is another aspect of Armor Saturation.
That 'begging to be ganked' still takes a hvy weapon that is not setting up as far forward possible to intercept the other units going at the enemy.

With drop pod manipulation you could have 2 pods come in on the objective and then have the opponent need to deal with 4 AV12 targets to stop them from contesting that stuff... that's a minimum of 4 hvy weapons going at them.

I think there is something to be said about getting some army lists in here, or some more situations, samples, bat reps, experience. We'll just end up going back and forth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back and forth with these vaccum situations.

I wrote this long response about why LotD are good, but it is not worth the effort.

The problem is that there is a “Group think” about what units are good, and what units are bad. Everyone thinks that there are good units and bad units, and everything is black and white. But if you know what you are doing, you can use units that compliment your army and build a winning list.

I guess that I will have to win with them on the table top, and then people will still say how could you win when you had LotD?

Application is a great thing.
Applying any unit to a specific role they are kitted to do is a good thing.

The LoTD can do this.

What many agree on, is that they are far too expensive for what you get out of them.

It's 205 points for 5 MEQ's with a MM and some special weapon.........a bit rediculous, IMO.

They're the Flash Gitz of the SM dex, neither cheap enough or effective enough to beat out similar units at the points level.

I wrote this long response about why LotD are good, but it is not worth the effort.

The problem is that there is a “Group think” about what units are good, and what units are bad. Everyone thinks that there are good units and bad units, and everything is black and white. But if you know what you are doing, you can use units that compliment your army and build a winning list.

I guess that I will have to win with them on the table top, and then people will still say how could you win when you had LotD?

QFT. I reread the rules and there are a couple of useful gaps LoTD could fill in my list. Given their rarity too, I bet when I field them my opponents will probably overreact the first couple of times too. But I'll be taking Blackmoor's route.

Well, like I said, a one trick pony; at least that's what you are describing in your post PanzerLeader.

But, if you do end up using them, please be sure to provide a bat rep.
_______________
Seriously? You guys have no issues with 5 MEQ's at a minimum of 205 with a hvy weapon?
What is the oppurtunity cost of this squad?
Are there units you can get that can fill the same offensive role?
Are people seriously considering a 10 man squad with hvy and special costing 355 points, for 10 MEQ's.
_______________

Another issue: the 'must' deepstrike can be a bad thing. Reduction of options is a bad thing in my book.

Sanctjud wrote:Another issue: the 'must' deepstrike can be a bad thing. Reduction of options is a bad thing in my book.

Mystic "Lord theres a unit deep striking ahead of us"
Inaquisitor lord "Grey Knights take aim ... FIRE!"
LotD "Here we come to save the d.... OH SH!"

That 300+ unit might not arrive until turn 5 as well and have nothing really to shoot at. Whereas the Drop Pod options are ther first turn and give you a bigger advantage over all. The unit made for that task is usually a suicide throw away unit anyway. Because they will basically get one shot off before the combined fire removes them. 3++ invulerable might sound good, but it can still be killed by 50+ Lasguns. Same method used against Terminators works with them, drown them under the ammount of dice they have to roll rather than go for fewer high quality shots.

To be fair.
Drop Podding in first turn is not always a good thing either.
______________-

Just that, you can manipulate the number of pods so that you get what you need/want earlier or later.

So you still have options available.
Hell, you can start a dread on the board and drop pod the pod somewhere safe first turn or later.

One other little tidbit about Legion that is nice is that you can drop them in or near difficult terrain, and not be instakilled by the resulting dangerous terrain (from deepstriking into difficult) rolls. Roll a one? Roll your invulnerable save for an additional 66% chance to save the model (thanks for the math fix, Sanctjud, lol!).

Oneproblem I'm seeing in the thread is the temptation to slap down trump cards against them. Yes, every unit has a counter. Listing out the perfect counter to a unit is somewhat silly. What if you sit across the table from me and DON'T have a Libby with Null Zone in your list? I know I don't announce my army lists before a game for exactly that reason. I don't need gits tailoring to me. I have enough problems already! lol.

The "My dad can beat your dad" argument just runs in circles.
Is there a threshold of numbers and loadout that could make them worth taking in a non-themed list?

I tend to agree with the “group think” that they’re too many points for what you get. I’d love to see them work, but whenever I try to conceptualize a list with them, the opportunity cost seems absurd.

And this is coming from someone who doesn’t think Flash Gits are as bad as they’re generally made out to be.

True, they can land in Dangerous with less death.
But would you really want to chance losing a specific model...even if unlikely?
Each model individually has to test, so you could lose something important, 3++ or not.

There is a cyclic argument about usage and effectivness.
There is no arguement that they are overpriced...which makes me still wonder if people really don't mind the high cost for a unit that has a narrow selection of roles, a lack of flexibility, and special rules that are kind of wanting when you take a closer look.

Regarding the "trump card" statement:

Survivability wise, there is no difference between a normal Marine and a much-more-expensive LatD Marine to any weapon of AP4 or higher. That was Sanctjud's whole point, that you don't need to bring any "special counter" for killing these guys because a Tac squad with a flamer can kill 3 models out of a 5 man squad with flamers and bolt pistols, then beat the remainder to death in close combat.

Against Orks it's even worse. You really need exceptional utility to justify that kind of point premium on a one wound T4 model with a 3+ and LotD, in my eyes, simply don't deliver it.

Just as an aside, because obviously you guys are just intent on bashing the unit to death....

They are the only Space Marine infantry unit that can fire a Heavy Weapon on the deep-striking phase, and they can continue to fire it on the move (albiet slowly). If you were to use the Combi-Flamer/Flamer/Heavy Flamer loadout, you've got a pretty good shot at coming in exactly where you want and dropping three good templates, including the Heavy one right away and on target. A Melta-spam loadout would actually fire the MM right after dropping in.

Suicide Drop Pod units can't fire a heavy until the following turn, giving enemy units a turn to flee or engage.

Hvy flamers are not hvy weapons.

You could have TWO hvy flamers on a Sternguard unit in a pod.

180 points for 5 MEQ and 2 Hvy Flamers.
Then you can tack on 3 combi-flamers for a total of 195 for 5 templates and the pod.

You can have a command squad with 5 flamers in a pod for 175.

5 LoTD with Flamer/Hvy Flamer/Combi-flamer is what? 200-205?

Melta spam? Well, focusing on non-melta spam first:
5 LoTD + MM = 185.
5 Sternguard with 5 Combi-melta and pod is 185.
That ends up being... do you want a 3++ for a single MM shot.
Or give up the 3++ and have 5 Meltas.
1 Dread + Pod = 140 for a DSing Shootable Hvy weapon.

Really no matter what the squad is gonna die, better have them do more in the turn they get IMO.

Tri melta spam for LoTD would be minimum of 215.
For the same cost you could have 6 Stern with 6 combi-meltas in a pod.
___________________________
To be fair:
The effective range for the LoTD means they can drop 6" more away from the enemy (in regards to a MM kit) compared to the melta wielding options.

Yeah, I tend to overlook the huge price in points for the fuzziness of using the underdog unit.
I'm just that kinda player. I like the idea of using a themed army of tactical squads, who are "rescued" by a bunch of Legion troopers.

The squad's only REAL bonus is the deepstriking of so many bodies with ++ saves.

I like deepstriking infantry that doesn't bring along a pod, because I am a biker/fast attack player. I don't want pods cluttering up my AoR and giving away killpoints.

I felt the Legion would be an interesting way to get a reactionary foot-borne unit with some different surability and heavy weapon options that my bikers lack.

There is only one place for LoTD
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1180084_Space_Marines_Datasheet_-_The_Legion_of_the_Damned.pdf