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Kanluwen wrote:You don't see that many medical marijuana patients turning to heroin/cocaine do you?

No it is actually much the opposite, and Orkeos is right about us agreeing for the most part.

If you consider the side effects associated with some of the harder prescription drugs, I can only imagine why someone would rather just toke up. Vomiting, Diahrrea, The spins, Delusions, etc... or... the munchies? I mean really though, any doctor who doesn't take at least some of these cases seriously is just asking to lose their patients.

I would not disagree with a doctor prescribing something like marinol, but a lot of people under treatment agree that it simply does not work the same way. So the doctors can pretend that people are not able to control anything besides their thoughts (think super happy ones... or something) and breathing... or... they can wise up to the fact that most people are hyper-aware of their own existence. This comes with being any kind of animal of course, but being human and being aware is an entirely different ball game. You cannot grow extra arms or anything, but you sure as hell can have enough sense to understand that something is or isn't good for you, not the statistics... for you.

Kanluwen wrote:...
However, I still don't see a connection between pot and heroin, etc that makes it a guarantee that pot will lead to bigger things.

I do not either, and I think we are basically talking about the same thing. Sure, if you smoke a bit of what have you, and then a week later you are hooked on crack, I mean really though, who's fault is that but your own?

Well...high five for agreeing then
Brain is fried from having to research serial/mass killers tonight so I'll just concede that hard drugs are really really bad.

Look at it this way, then. Alchohol is thoroughly integrated in society. Everyone would complain if you took it away. Alchohol abuse is a problem, and that's why we try and regulate it, which is admittedly quite hard. Why make it harder by making weed available to the public?

Cheese Elemental wrote:Everyone would complain if you took it away.

Marijuana was legal at one time and people are still complaining that they took it away.

Cheese Elemental wrote:Look at it this way, then. Alchohol is thoroughly integrated in society. Everyone would complain if you took it away. Alchohol abuse is a problem, and that's why we try and regulate it, which is admittedly quite hard. Why make it harder by making weed available to the public?

Harder to regulate alcohol? Harder to regulate people?

dogma wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Look at it this way, then. Alchohol is thoroughly integrated in society. Everyone would complain if you took it away. Alchohol abuse is a problem, and that's why we try and regulate it, which is admittedly quite hard. Why make it harder by making weed available to the public?

Harder to regulate alcohol? Harder to regulate people?

Good question, and one I have no idea how to respond to.

"Hey, you like how pot makes you feel... you wanna try THIS! Man, it will blow your mind!"

And hence your friendly pot dealer has hooked you onto something heavier. Or giving out small "freebies" of harder drugs with every purchase of pot.

There are a million and one ways of hooking someone on hard drugs by starting out on pot. Hence it is a gateway drug, because it can lead onto much worse drugs.

I am for the legalisation of a number of things that are currently illegal (even though I don't partake in any of them myself, I don't even drink tea or coffee). The more you can keep out of the hands of the street dealers, the less power they have and the less chance that you go from pot to something worse (or E to something worse, etc...).

Same with prostitution, keep the users safe, remove another money stream from the criminals and protect the people in the industry. At the same time you may well reduce the sex slave trade, though this is up for debate.

Too lazy to quote as I am half making dinner and nerding it up on the web, so....

The school system has been gak for years.

Just because booze is legal, does everyone come to work smashed?

In India, Whiskey is as illegal as Pot is in a lot of Western countries, so make sure you smack that highball out of grampa's hand this year at Christmas and tell him how terrible it is.

Try being a garbage man, a janitor, a mechanic or a road maintenance worker that doesn't smoke weed. Do they exist?

In J-pan smoking weed is considered by the natives as bad as the really hard stuff like Smack or Crack. Yet, 50 year old men taking jr.High girls out on hot love-love dates is somewhat socially acceptable. What the feth?

I don't smoke grass anymore. When I did, I got two Bachelor Degrees, an MA and became tri-lingual.

All eye of the beholder.

Ahtman wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Everyone would complain if you took it away.

Marijuana was legal at one time and people are still complaining that they took it away.

Heroin, cocaine, bennies, LSD and MDMA too.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Everyone would complain if you took it away.

Marijuana was legal at one time and people are still complaining that they took it away.

Heroin, cocaine, bennies, LSD and MDMA too.

You forgot absinthe.

That's legal.

I think some types of it are legislated against.

Edit: Although it appears to be banned in the USA and a number of other nations, so I guess the UK is fun loving after all

Edit 2: Ok, it is not illegal any more, there are several distileries in the US making the stuff, though they are fairly new.

Kilkrazy wrote:That's legal.

And tasty.

Tall glass, crushed ice, 2 shots of vodka, 1 shot of absinthe, top up with Red Bull ..
..



It's like being mugged. You've got no money left and feth all idea of what the hell just happened.

Now what needs to be done is
1. study the crime rate in these states, see if it falls.
2. If not already, tax the stuff.
3. Make it a capital offense to make, buy, sell, or use drugs except for the legalized kind. Exterminate illegal drug dealers. The government will not tolerate competition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Everyone would complain if you took it away.

Marijuana was legal at one time and people are still complaining that they took it away.

Heroin, cocaine, bennies, LSD and MDMA too.

You forgot absinthe.

Was watching From Hell, had absinthe. WTH is that?

Cheese Elemental wrote:
Yep, you fire someone for coming to work high or in shambles, and they'll be unemployed. That means less money is being spent, and the economy would suffer even more than it is now.

You're assuming that any person who smokes marijuana will automatically get as high as he can upon waking, and stay that way till sleep regardless of anything else. The fact is, people who go to work intoxicated, where this is frowned upon (and yes I've had a couple jobs where intoxication was accepted as long as it wasn't debilitating, mostly phone work) will do so regardless of the legality of their substance of choice. Time to spit out some of the programming you've been fed, and look at life realistically.

Of course th problem arising is that this clashes with corporate drug testing.

Frazzled wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Everyone would complain if you took it away.

Marijuana was legal at one time and people are still complaining that they took it away.

Heroin, cocaine, bennies, LSD and MDMA too.

You forgot absinthe.

Was watching From Hell, had absinthe. WTH is that?

High octane distilled liquor that is flavored with Anise seed. it is green, has a licorice taste to it and really is a pain to mix with anything. The proper way to drink it is 1 part absinthe to 5-6 parts water and a sugar cube or two. Put the sugar cubes on the slotted spoon and pour the liquids over them. Then stir together.

@Reds8n... that sounds like it would get the night started off just right... if you can get past the taste. I might have to try that sometime.

Fallen668 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

Ahtman wrote:

Cheese Elemental wrote:Everyone would complain if you took it away.

Marijuana was legal at one time and people are still complaining that they took it away.

Heroin, cocaine, bennies, LSD and MDMA too.

You forgot absinthe.

Was watching From Hell, had absinthe. WTH is that?

High octane distilled liquor that is flavored with Anise seed. it is green, has a licorice taste to it and really is a pain to mix with anything. The proper way to drink it is 1 part absinthe to 5-6 parts water and a sugar cube or two. Put the sugar cubes on the slotted spoon and pour the liquids over them. Then stir together.

@Reds8n... that sounds like it would get the night started off just right... if you can get past the taste. I might have to try that sometime.

Thats like a lot of effort when I can just get some good sipping dark rum, or a nice strawberry margarita. Oh well, each his own.

Kilkrazy wrote:That's legal.

Not in the US it isn't. Much like marijuana is legal in Amsterdam. Though I'm sure that means it must be a cinder as all the crazy whack-a-doo pot heads have caused riots and burned the place to the ground. Since it is legal all the fireman are lazy and couldn't be bothered to put out the fires.

Well, I never. You learn something new every day.

Why is absinthe illegal in the US?

Because JUST SAY NO.

Kilkrazy wrote:Well, I never. You learn something new every day.

Why is absinthe illegal in the US?

For pretty much the same reasons pot is illegal. It makes people evil and do evil things.*



*Apparently in 2007 they quietly lifted the ban and is slightly available in the USA. It is hard to find and most liqour stores don't carry it. It has to be ordered from specialty shops.

I've tried the sugar and water absinthe.. was horrible. The aniseed taste far too strong for me/those I drink with. The red bull and vodka was called a Bullrush if memory serves. Hits you like a tsunami though I warn you.

Overall I've drank maybe 6 bottles of the stuff over the last few years.... if you get drunk on it it is a killer hangover. I believe the modern versions ( legal ones anyway) have much lower levels of wormwood in them, but if you get a decent brand it is quite trippy and mind altering to imbibe. Did remind me of coming up on acid.. just slight traces off of things or sparkley colours here and there.

Ahtman wrote:*Apparently in 2007 they quietly lifted the ban and is slightly available in the USA. It is hard to find and most liqour stores don't carry it. It has to be ordered from specialty shops.

Only the non-hallucinogenic variety is available. All the horrible taste, none of the wonderful benefits. Though in order to actually hallucinate you need to drink enough absinthe to put most people under the table. That's been my experience anyway.

SilverMK2 wrote:
And hence your friendly pot dealer has hooked you onto something heavier. Or giving out small "freebies" of harder drugs with every purchase of pot.

There are a million and one ways of hooking someone on hard drugs by starting out on pot. Hence it is a gateway drug, because it can lead onto much worse drugs.

So you are getting your pot from a crack dealer... how complicated is it to understand this though?

"Hey buddy, welcome to the tire change shop... how about a bit of transmission work?" Come. The. Feck. On.

If people get their pot from a crack dealer, and they start with pot, they wanted that crack to begin with. It is like blaming a pothole in the road for your busted tire. The pothole was their to begin with, and you saw it coming, or you were too oblivious to see it coming, and you are responsible for that goddamed popped tire.

I really do not understand how someone could possibly think that getting drugs is that simple. It is incredibly easy to get alcohol when you are underage, and now that meth has taken over the U.S., you simply cannot logically blame pot for your own damn problems. When that crack is gone, you will still have that problem, when that meth is gone, you will still have that problem, when that cigarette is gone, you will still have that problem.

When does blaming the sky for raining become moronic? At which point though? At the point that you are wondering why it is raining? Or at the point where you simply cannot figure out where in the feth this water is coming from. It is coming from you, because you forgot to fix the roof, and you are just too damn something or other to go out and fix it in the storm.

Parents can protect their kids from dangerous situations if the take the time, and before you go off on the Timmy won't be stopped!!! Get a freaking grip, that kid was fethed majorly to begin with, and your cries for "help", have no reflection on your ability to move past the substance, and address the real issues.

dogma wrote:
Only the non-hallucinogenic variety is available. All the horrible taste, none of the wonderful benefits. Though in order to actually hallucinate you need to drink enough absinthe to put most people under the table. That's been my experience anyway.

I had some of that a few years back at Burning Man, and it really did a number on me. Perhaps it was all of the other fanciness and frills I had ingested, but I have never felt more like this in my life...



I walked for around 10 minutes... then I saw the mountains, and decided to walk to the top for some strange reason. I then walked about 30 minutes in that direction, only to realize that I had in fact... not really gotten any closer at all.... and the mountain was actually a mountain, not a hill.

Absinthe has never treated me right since.

I've got a pretty high tolerance for all things hallucinogenic or intoxicating, so my opinion tends to be an outlier.

I don't necessarily have a high tolerance, just a very stabilized mind when I need it. I can run an even keel through the depths of hell like a pro, at least when it really counts.

I get the same thing when I work out, just a force directed at the pain, rather than coping, I just kick it's ass.

Wrexasaur wrote:So you are getting your pot from a crack dealer... how complicated is it to understand this though?

"Hey buddy, welcome to the tire change shop... how about a bit of transmission work?" Come. The. Feck. On.

If people get their pot from a crack dealer, and they start with pot, they wanted that crack to begin with. It is like blaming a pothole in the road for your busted tire. The pothole was their to begin with, and you saw it coming, or you were too oblivious to see it coming, and you are responsible for that goddamed popped tire.

I really do not understand how someone could possibly think that getting drugs is that simple. It is incredibly easy to get alcohol when you are underage, and now that meth has taken over the U.S., you simply cannot logically blame pot for your own damn problems. When that crack is gone, you will still have that problem, when that meth is gone, you will still have that problem, when that cigarette is gone, you will still have that problem.

Getting drugs is pretty simple. You may get your stuff from a friend of a friend who does indeed sell just pot. However, the thing is that a lot of dealers don't just sell pot.

And you can start off on pot not wanting anything stronger and still get hooked into harder drugs. It is like starting on shandy and ending up hammered on spirits. You may have started the night nice and quietly but you gradually end up wanting a bit more of a buzz.

Pot smokers can be the same... dealers already know you are interested in getting high, so will target their marketing towards you; perhaps with one off freebies of drugs (one use is enough to get you hooked for some drugs, as I am sure you are aware) and there you go, you either sweat off the new cravings, or you cave and go buy some more. It is simmilar to the way that there is a lot of alcohol adverts in bars, and the 2 for 1 happy hour conveniently ends when people are starting to get a bit too happy to stop drinking, but not so drunk that you have to throw them out. They lure you in with cheap offers and then reel you in later to pay full price.

Not to mention lowered inhibitions when using causing a problem with just saying "no" to drugs

And I am not sure what problems you are wanting to blame things for. I am just trying to explain how pot (and other gateway drugs) are a gateway onto harder drugs. Government regulation on legal drugs may help to kerb the gateway effect by removing the trade from the street dealers who would be more likley to try and sell you hard drugs than a supermarket or a corner shop.

SilverMK2 wrote:Getting drugs is pretty simple. You may get your stuff from a friend of a friend who does indeed sell just pot. However, the thing is that a lot of dealers don't just sell pot.

So people go out of their way to find someone else who sells something stronger. Or they are incredibly naive, and will simply take anything that they are handed.

And you can start off on pot not wanting anything stronger and still get hooked into harder drugs. It is like starting on shandy and ending up hammered on spirits. You may have started the night nice and quietly but you gradually end up wanting a bit more of a buzz.

Or you won't want more of a buzz, and you won't start snorting and popping, for want or need of that buzz.

Pot smokers can be the same... dealers already know you are interested in getting high, so will target their marketing towards you; perhaps with one off freebies of drugs (one use is enough to get you hooked for some drugs, as I am sure you are aware) and there you go, you either sweat off the new cravings, or you cave and go buy some more. It is simmilar to the way that there is a lot of alcohol adverts in bars, and the 2 for 1 happy hour conveniently ends when people are starting to get a bit too happy to stop drinking, but not so drunk that you have to throw them out. They lure you in with cheap offers and then reel you in later to pay full price.

The same as 2 for 1 happy hour? What kind of freaking drug dealers are in your neighborhoods? Transmission dealers also know that you are trying to drive your car, and that has nothing to do with pushing the newest, fanciest, most expensive kit down your throat.

Not to mention lowered inhibitions when using causing a problem with just saying "no" to drugs

What kind of person, goes to a party, gets stoned, and does not take the time to avoid harder substances? The person that wanted them in the first place. Not all people are sheep man.

And I am not sure what problems you are wanting to blame things for. I am just trying to explain how pot (and other gateway drugs) are a gateway onto harder drugs. Government regulation on legal drugs may help to kerb the gateway effect by removing the trade from the street dealers who would be more likley to try and sell you hard drugs than a supermarket or a corner shop.

I am not sure how it is hard to understand that some people would be inclined to use these drugs in the first place. Your argument sounds a lot like duck, duck, NUCLEAR GOOSE, whereas the reality is more along the lines of, duck X 1000 = 1 possible nuclear goose. The reason that kids get into hard drugs IS because they were inclined to do so in the first place, on top of which they lack the guidance to help them avoid such obstacles.

This is not a matter of wanting to blame anything, it is about what the real causes of drug use are. Arguing that the tree will drop it's coconuts on your head if you shake it... is quite obvious. When you go into that shady neighborhood, and people start offering you all sorts of strange substances, simply don't go back. If you could cite evidence, showing that most people who do drugs, inevitably use harder and harder substances, I would be inclined to agree with you. But, you cannot do that, so I am at a bit of a loss in terms of actually understanding your points.

You can provide some anecdotal evidence I am sure. Like that poor kid Ted, who got hooked on meth after trying some pot with a friend. In this group of kids like Ted, we will probably find that the parents of around half of these kids, use the exact drug that their kids are hooked onto. In that half, we would most likely find that around 2/3 of these kids have severe emotional issues, most likely linked to child abuse. In that 2/3, you would also find that most of these kids started with meth, and/or alcohol; they might even smoke at ages of 15 or less. Out of this small sample, which does indeed support your points, you have developed a backwards theory about this small subset of the "drug culture" dominating the demographic of said culture.

Your idea that pot is a dangerous gateway drug, cannot hold itself up under scrutiny. If you would like to talk about how Meth can be a way for kids/adults to find an excuse to not get past the issues that probably got them in that situation in the first place, I would be happy to do so.

Legalize pot, tax it, and let people make their own mistakes. Furthermore, use that sales tax to rehabilitate hardcore drug-users who are willing to do so. Promoting responsibility, not apathy; taking control of your own life, and learning to live with whatever shortcomings you may have, that... is my point. Allowing people to tell you, that you, the person who spent years of their life wasting time doing god knows what to get a fix, are not to blame, is simply naive; on top of which, it gives you a complete excuse at to why you made those mistakes in the first place.

Ok, I am going to state this fairly simply, as I think we may be at cross purposes here:

Pot itself, as a drug, is not all that harmful, and does not itself lead one to a life of shooting up anything you can scrape together whilst smoking anything that burns and snorting anything you can chop up fine enough.

Many users of pot are just pot users, I knew enough of them in my time to know that most of them would not try anything else. However, here is the thing, it is a gateway drug because, and this is the important bit: It is an illegal substance, and one of the few ways you can buy it is from someone who is connected to the drugs trade.

Now, your friend of a friend you buy your pot from may not be a dealer of harder drugs, but to get the quantities he sells, he may well buy his stuff from an actual drug dealer, someone who does sell harder drugs. Someone who is always looking for more sales and is happy to get people hooked into his stuff.

Although as I have stated previously, a lot of pot dealers will also deal other things too. Because other things will make them a lot more money than pot. Which is a good thing for the dealer.

As you say, and I have not contradicted as far as I am aware, there is always the need for some sort of desire on the users part to go for harder drugs. The point I am trying to make and the reason that pot is a gateway drug is that it provides a point of contact for dealers to push and supply harder drugs to people who may want to try something else. The factor here that makes this worse is the people who are sitting on the fence, they may be happy with pot but up for something else, or they may just be weak willed, or wanting to follow the crowd, etc.

It is these people that the legalisation of pot will help protect the most, those who can be pushed into harder drugs, even if they would not really want to use otherwise.