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Lt Lathrop wrote:Aren't the assassins the same anyway?

Nope. One is a Dæmonhunters Assassin, the other is a Witch Hunters Assassin.

insaniak is correct and I confirm that the WH FAQ does say the same thing.
But yeah, I do believe the Assassins are the same. o_O

EDIT for Gwar!! : Beside being codex-specific, they're the same, yes?

InquisitorBob wrote:insaniak is correct and I confirm that the WH FAQ does say the same thing.
But yeah, I do believe the Assassins are the same. o_O

EDIT for Gwar!! : Beside being codex-specific, they're the same, yes?

Technically they are the same ... in the same way all Land-raiders are Land-raiders. But if the WH codex was updated first and they got 20pts assassins (like lone wolves) it wouldn't change how the daemon hunters assassins worked (or fail to)

A-P wrote: Agree with most that Wehrkind said. The 5th CC rules really hurt the assassins. Countermove, no killzone, No Retreat and pile in make assaults a "Do or Die"- situation for them. You really need an overall strategy that the assassin supports. Otherwise you are hard pressed to justify the points and use of precious FOC- slots. I have only used the Callidus in Planetstrike and Apocalypse games.

In the 5 games I've used her so far, Cally the Callidus hasn't failed me yet. She will at least earn her points back for me (though I don't usually take her in less than 2k) and generally makes a huge mess of things.

The 6" movement at the beginning of the game is really the holy grail, regardless of if you're going first or second. If you've got first turn, march those troops or drive that vehicle out into the open to nix the cover saves. If you're going second, move heavy squads out of buildings so they can't fire and must move back in their turn. (Keep in mind this happens before the roll to seize the initiative iirc)

But she's just a beast. Being able to place her so her S8 AP1 (vs Ld) template can cover whatever she wants is just ridiculous. And then she can assault right afterwards too.

Last game she popped up right next to Shrike and his cronies, killed 6 assault marines and put a wound on the chaplain and Shrike with the shredder, then killed Shrike in CC. She would've done more but she failed a single powerfist save (WS5, S4 and T4 makes her rather scary in CC even without the C'tan blade) and thusly went SQUISH!

To be fair, she did have a PBS assisting the situation (they were down to 4 since their transport was kaboomed thanks to the aforementioned Shrikey :( But that still managed to make the Shredder wound on 3s rather than 4s with only invulnerable saves.

She has died every match but one, but she's killed around 40 marines and 2 or 3 Captains/Special Characters. Yeah she's more or less a suicide unit but I don't think she's overpriced in the slightest. I just wish you could take an elite Inquisitor rather than the Lord to save a few points (I still want my mystics, of course!).

DoW

Lt Lathrop wrote:Aren't the assassins the same anyway?

That's not really the issue.

The reason for the distinction, despite the Assassins being the same on paper, is the rule requiring you to have in Inquisitor or Inquisitor Lord in your force in order to field the Assassin.

If both have to be selected from the same Codex (which they do) that means that, because of the restrictions on how many of each slot you can take in an allied force, you have to take an Inquisitor Lord in order to field an Assassin in a Guard or Marine army.

If you could select the Assassin from one codex and the Inquisitor from the other, you could get away with an Elite Inquisitor with no retinue to get the Assassin for a much lower outlay.

I was not aware you could take more than one ally in a list.

I believe that taking allies from both Inquisitorial Codices is acceptable.

Fetterkey wrote:I believe that taking allies from both Inquisitorial Codices is acceptable.

It is but in both WH and DH it says you may only have one assassin no matter what the reason. This was also FAQ

DogOfWar wrote:

Last game she popped up right next to Shrike and his cronies, killed 6 assault marines and put a wound on the chaplain and Shrike with the shredder, then killed Shrike in CC. She would've done more but she failed a single powerfist save (WS5, S4 and T4 makes her rather scary in CC even without the C'tan blade) and thusly went SQUISH!

To be fair, she did have a PBS assisting the situation (they were down to 4 since their transport was kaboomed thanks to the aforementioned Shrikey :( But that still managed to make the Shredder wound on 3s rather than 4s with only invulnerable saves.

Four psykers makes the Weaken Resolve -4 to the LD stat. Majority LD in the unit was probably an 8, meaning you're using ST 8 vs LD 4, wounding on 2s and potential Instant Death. Don't think the ID would affect the characters as they should get to use their own adjusted LD value to determine ID, even tho you use the group value to determine die roll required to wound. Even if you used the LD 10 from the characters (which you do not do unless the unit is taking a Morale or Pinning test, which this ain't), then it would be ST 8 vs LD 6, still wounding on a 2+ (has to be a 7 to get to 3+), but without the ID.

Tri wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I believe that taking allies from both Inquisitorial Codices is acceptable.

It is but in both WH and DH it says you may only have one assassin no matter what the reason. This was also FAQ

Right. I was responding to Lt. Lathrop.

Fetterkey wrote:

Tri wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:I believe that taking allies from both Inquisitorial Codices is acceptable.

It is but in both WH and DH it says you may only have one assassin no matter what the reason. This was also FAQ

Right. I was responding to Lt. Lathrop.

Not aimed at you but the next line of reasoning is ..."So i can take one from each codex" .... which i was pre-empting.

don_mondo wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Last game she popped up right next to Shrike and his cronies, killed 6 assault marines and put a wound on the chaplain and Shrike with the shredder, then killed Shrike in CC. She would've done more but she failed a single powerfist save (WS5, S4 and T4 makes her rather scary in CC even without the C'tan blade) and thusly went SQUISH!

To be fair, she did have a PBS assisting the situation (they were down to 4 since their transport was kaboomed thanks to the aforementioned Shrikey :( But that still managed to make the Shredder wound on 3s rather than 4s with only invulnerable saves.

Four psykers makes the Weaken Resolve -4 to the LD stat. Majority LD in the unit was probably an 8, meaning you're using ST 8 vs LD 4, wounding on 2s and potential Instant Death. Don't think the ID would affect the characters as they should get to use their own adjusted LD value to determine ID, even tho you use the group value to determine die roll required to wound. Even if you used the LD 10 from the characters (which you do not do unless the unit is taking a Morale or Pinning test, which this ain't), then it would be ST 8 vs LD 6, still wounding on a 2+ (has to be a 7 to get to 3+), but without the ID.

Ah good to know!

To clarify, I kept the Overseer so it was actually 3 psykers and 1 overseer lowering the leadership by 3. In hindsight that was probably an error on my part (in the back of my head I thought the overseer was Ld9 and the psykers Ld8 for their tests... turns out everyone is Ld9) but I'll know for next time.

We did actually use Shrike's reduced Ld value for the whole squad rather than the majority leadership so I think you're absolutely right, it should have been wounding S8 vs Ld5 rather than Ld7. I think this was a mistake since we were discussing the Instant Death issue and it somehow became logical that you just used the highest possible leadership in the unit for everything. Again, in hindsight this seems like a bit of a silly conclusion.

Then again, I still haven't managed to convince my FLGS that only tanks can tank shock and ram (except when expressly stated by wargear, of course)...

DoW

Sorry If I've not been paying attention but what have unit of psykers got to do with instant death?

You use the Strength Vs LD ship to wound. Instant death happens if your strength is Double the Toughness. Which for both orks and SM it is.

Is this an result of an FAQ? Adobes playing up so i can't check.

Tri wrote:Sorry If I've not been paying attention but what have unit of psykers got to do with instant death?

You use the Strength Vs LD ship to wound. Instant death happens if your strength is Double the Toughness. Which for both orks and SM it is.

Is this an result of an FAQ? Adobes playing up so i can't check.

What we are saying is that if the Ld is 4 or less because of the PBS you inflict instant death.

Tri wrote:Sorry If I've not been paying attention but what have unit of psykers got to do with instant death?

You use the Strength Vs LD ship to wound. Instant death happens if your strength is Double the Toughness. Which for both orks and SM it is.

Is this an result of an FAQ? Adobes playing up so i can't check.

Yes I believe it was addressed in the DH/WH FAQs.

Instead of using toughness to determine the ID (which is what the RAW would indicate, since ID requires you to specifically compare the strength of the weapon and the toughness) you now use the Ld value in the same way that you used it to determine wounding.

This was probably because, like you said, Cally would ID even the beefiest SM characters and some people apparently thought that was OP...

Bah!

DoW

Yeah, if we went with Weapon Strength vs Toughness for the Callidus Neural Shredder, then any T4 or lower model would be subject to Instant Death. As stated, one of the FAQs makes it LD 4 or lower for ID, which is fun now with the advent of the Psyker Battle Squad and it's ability to lower that LD.

A-P wrote: Agree with most that Wehrkind said. The 5th CC rules really hurt the assassins. Countermove, no killzone, No Retreat and pile in make assaults a "Do or Die"- situation for them. You really need an overall strategy that the assassin supports. Otherwise you are hard pressed to justify the points and use of precious FOC- slots. I have only used the Callidus in Planetstrike and Apocalypse games.

In the 5 games I've used her so far, Cally the Callidus hasn't failed me yet. She will at least earn her points back for me (though I don't usually take her in less than 2k) and generally makes a huge mess of things.

Yes. The Callidus is the most reliable and versatile of the Assassins. Eversor is just a Kamikaze charger. Culexus needs other units to support its abilities. The Vindicare has an annoying habit of failing to wound that Important Shot.

She has died every match but one, but she's killed around 40 marines and 2 or 3 Captains/Special Characters. Yeah she's more or less a suicide unit but I don't think she's overpriced in the slightest. I just wish you could take an elite Inquisitor rather than the Lord to save a few points (I still want my mystics, of course!).

Same experience. So far 100% mortality rate of Temple operatives . But the looks of the opposing team in our recent Planetstrike game was memorable. Both Marbo and a Callidus appeared simultaniously behind their lines. It was glorius .