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Winning is great and all, but I'd rather feel like I earned my victories. For instance, my Tyranids in 3rd edition pre-codex were pretty much unstoppable. I played with some of my best friends (who are actually quite good at the game), but forcing them to run into a wall of Gaunts only to mulch them with Genestealers and MC's wasn't terribly entertaining after awhile. The intellectual aspect of Warhammer is what interests me, and winning 95% of the time isn't really indicative of tactical savvy. Rather, it means you're steamrolling hapless victims. In fairness, Dash noted that sentiment in one of his posts, stating that he is "a big fish in a small pond." I also totally understand sticking with weak competition if you're in prize-yielding tournaments. By all means, butcher your way to a cheap army if you can. That's just smart.

Hey now!

I earn my victories. My Orks have rampaged ridiculously through the tournament circuit everywhere I can get them to.

My Tau have done the same. In fact, I started playing my wife's Orks because it was getting old annihilating everyone with my Tau. The novels of Ork tactics I've written I've done the same for with Tau if you go back six months. Now I'm starting Dark Eldar, and trying to piece together my first Dark Eldar list because I hunger for more challenges.

And I *have* been trying to get into the bigger tournament circuit to get out of my small pond. My first opportunity to do so was this year's 'Ard Boyz; I actually played in two preliminary rounds (Saturday and Sunday), won very handily at both, and got $180 in store credit. I got food poisoning the night before regionals, but I showed up anyway pale and haggard. My first round opponent brought Eldrad with a seer council on jetbikes. Turn2, he failed his fortune roll, failed his reroll, and his jetbike squad was waiting for Ghazghkull to pile into as I started disembarking from my vehicles and preparing to charge. Things got *real* nasty at my table, my opponent was accusing me of cheating with my deployments out of my vehicles...I offered to take them back and let him do it for me, but he said that if I was going to cheat then he was too...and he started RE-ARRANGING his models on the table during my turn. I put my hands up in the air and said, "If you want it that bad, its yours" and packed up and went home.

Interestingly, from what I heard the player who won semi-finals was my third round opponent during one of the preliminaries whom I massacred, and the player who won second place was the tyranid player who placed 5th at the same quarter-finals, was my second round opponent, and got to to to semi-finals because I gave up my entry ticket to him because I took first at the other store too. *laughing* The intricacies of life never cease to amaze.


Anyway....I realize that I'm a big fish in a little pond. I'm happy to sit down with anyone and test my skills against them. I *WANT* to get my butt handed to me. I don't think there's anything for me to really learn about my army and how I play it until I find someone who can hand me my own tail on a plate, and I'm eagerly trying to find that fight so I can find out what I need to improve. From time to time, when someone who's location is within remotely reasonable driving distance for me absolutely disagrees with my assessment of something, I offer for them to meet me here in NC for a game to find out who's right with a battleforce box to the winner, paid by the loser....and if they beat me, I'll pay their expenses for the trip. I'm always up for finding someone who's better than me (or lucky, or anything) so I can leech from them. =p

And I *have* been trying to get into the bigger tournament circuit to get out of my small pond. My first opportunity to do so was this year's 'Ard Boyz; I actually played in two preliminary rounds (Saturday and Sunday), won very handily at both, and got $180 in store credit. I got food poisoning the night before regionals, but I showed up anyway pale and haggard. My first round opponent brought Eldrad with a seer council on jetbikes. Turn2, he failed his fortune roll, failed his reroll, and his jetbike squad was waiting for Ghazghkull to pile into as I started disembarking from my vehicles and preparing to charge. Things got *real* nasty at my table, my opponent was accusing me of cheating with my deployments out of my vehicles...I offered to take them back and let him do it for me, but he said that if I was going to cheat then he was too...and he started RE-ARRANGING his models on the table during my turn. I put my hands up in the air and said, "If you want it that bad, its yours" and packed up and went home.


Really? What an honest and upfront assessment of the entire game...

Charlie, I like you a lot.

That game should never have been. I know I did some stuff to piss you off too, and don't really remember what (call it selective memory if you like), but you moving your models during my turn just took the cake. I'm disappointing that me giving you a full 24 point massacre didn't help you win. The folks from my area who came back don't know you, but they said that the eldar guy from my first round got into some really bad arguments in his other games. *shrugs*

Anyway....we've hijacked this thread enough. ><

Lemme just say that I greatly appreciate everything I have gained from this thread. After decent hiatus from wargaming, I am jumping back in with my Orks and selling my other armies for lack of time. I play a lotta people that tailor build there army lists to their opponents each game. With all I've learned here... Hell I'll be glad to let 'em build their army list WHILE looking mine over. I'll still feel confident enough in my chances. Your little Orky scripture has been gathered over numerous threads during my past weeks research, and copy/pasted into my BBerry Dash!


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Lemme just say that I greatly appreciate everything I have gained from this thread. After decent hiatus from wargaming, I am jumping back in with my Orks and selling my other armies for lack of time. I play a lotta people that tailor build there army lists to their opponents each game. With all I've learned here... Hell I'll be glad to let 'em build their army list WHILE looking mine over. I'll still feel confident enough in my chances. Your little Orky scripture has been gathered over numerous threads during my past weeks research, and copy/pasted into my BBerry Dash!

Glad to help.

I've written a new saga for your advice which can be found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/266100.page#1122743

brilliant stuff.It has certainly resolved my burnas vs lootas debate. Apart from a few deffkoptas (thank you AOBR) what fast attack choices do people favour?

Stormboyz.

Deffkoptas

Deffkopters. Stormboyz suck balls 8)

Maybe you guys failed to read his question?

It was, "ASIDE FROM DEFFKOPTAS......" which translated into "I realize how valuable these are, and am grateful that AoBR packaged some in, but what else can I use?

I did miss that, sorry. Stormboys are the best after the koptas IMO, I'd also bring Zagstrukk and Deeps strike them

Dashofpepper wrote:Maybe you guys failed to read his question?

It was, "ASIDE FROM DEFFKOPTAS......" which translated into "I realize how valuable these are, and am grateful that AoBR packaged some in, but what else can I use?

He actually said apart from deffkopters lol. My answer is still deffkopters though, but in answer to the question i favour deffkopters because i do not favour any other fast attack ork unit

I think I was one of the ones you bumped this list for. I tried it this weekend using a list very similar to the one above, as well as an alternate. I guess I would say that I'm not completely sold that Thraka is THE guy to use for that extra 100 points. A boss with similar equipment (mega armor, cybork, attack squig) comes in at 100 points cheaper than Thraka, and largely fills the same role. He can't stand toe to toe with a str 10 dread, but for 105 points, you can pull a dread on the table with 2 additional hand weapons.

Losing 1 str 10 on the charge with your boss for an additional 6 str 10 on the charge with an additional dread seems like a better route to go to me.

However, shy of that point, I am completely on board with this list. It effectively turns your entire army into 6 point storm boyz, since they all have a comparable delivery range, and take less damage on the way in.

In the three games I played using this list, I found that the opposing army is so tied up trying to eliminate the KFF, and with the KFF jumping into a new wagon each time one gets blown up, you end up delivering 60 or more boyz on their frontline on turn 2 without any real opposition.

Even under the worst circumstances (6 broadsides, 2 pathfinders, 1 hammerhead, and 2 groups of meltas deepstriking behind my vehicle front), I haven't lost more than 2 wagons on the way in. I'd also add that deploying in one corner of the field substantially cuts down on the amount of attacks you are likely to have to absorb before you crash into the line.

I'm a believer, though I would challenge Pepper's take on Thraka's 225 points being justified. Maybe in a larger 'ard boyz game with greater than 2k points, I could field him, but I just don't see him bringing 100 points more than a regular boss to the table. As long as you don't foolishly bound into a str 10 power fist with your boss, the 2+ regular mega armor is able to defend you in much the same way that he argues above that a 4+ armor save is enough for your nobs. You pick the fights with that charge range, and don't stand to take too many nasty hits unless you want to.

I found that one round of 2+ invulnerable save is pretty valuable. That is the round you go toe to toe with his big suckers (Abaddon etc). You might be unlucky but chances are with all those hefty power klaw attacks you are going to do more damage, but he is a lot of points. Having every squad fearless just meant that my squads got wiped out when they lost a combat instead of running away.


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Dashofpepper wrote:*

2. Mek with a KFF, rock it. For the time being, please take off his burna and bosspole. I think your points can be more effectively spent; this guy's only purpose is to give your fleet of vehicles a 4+ obscure save.
However, I would urge you to drop cybork bodies.

That just leaves close combat. With a 27" assault range, YOU decide what to assault. Since you have Ghazghkull and burnas to deal with really scary things that ignore armor saves, you can spend your Nobs wisely on MEQs and things without massed powerweapons. Just no reason to take it on this unit in a mechanized list.
Here's my rough army list for 1850:

Ghazghkull+18 boyz in a battlewagon
Mek with a KFF + 15 burna boyz in a battlewagon
Snikrot + 15 kommandos and two burnas.
The rest of my points: 12 boyz + a nob and powerklaw in trukks. Either 4 units of 5 units depending on wargear, deffrolla, mood, etc.

quote]
just a few tiny comments... my limited experience has shown that nobz tend to mulch a target and then get counter charged by termies or whatever so I have wished for that 5+ invulnerable. There seem to be a lot of weapons that are3+AP. If nothing else the nobz do bring a BW to the table without using up a heavy weapons slot.

I love leaving a burna on the mek because he al;ways gets into assault with whatever squad I have attached him to and we are short of template weapons or power weapons. I know his Initiative isn't great but it is better than 1 and 4 3 or 4 power weapon attacks inconvenience a lot of things.

I'll humbly shut up now.

Ghaz's CC prowess is pretty awesome, but the part where he makes your ENTIRE ARMY (if built right) fearless for an entire game turn and with a guaranteed 6" fleet move is what moves him to "must have" status.

I get a lot of references to this thread, with people asking me questions. I just had someone PM me asking for more details about grabbin' klaws and how game turns are limited so it seems wasteful to use them. I wrote a lengthy reply and thought I would copy it here.

I think you may have misquoted me; I just copied what I wrote:
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Picture this: Ghazghkull pulls up next to a land raider that moved 12" and takes 7 swings at it. You need a 6 to hit because it moved at cruising speed. Statistically with 7 attacks, you have a 100% chance of getting at least one hit, but chesson dice which 99% of the 40k world uses have curved edges and a non-statistical rolling pattern; they roll 10% more 1s than they should (you can find all that information elsewhere on this site). Then Ghazzy needs a 4 to glance, 5 to penetrate. Tight odds even for him. Stick a grabbin' klaw on that Land Raider and its going nowhere fast. Where you going? NOWHERE! That's where you're going. Now you auto-hit 7 times, and the chances of you turning it into scrap metal are exponentially higher.
------------------------------------

You're right - its only for vehicles that move up to 12". Also, land raiders cannot move more than 12"!!

As for their utility, I don't like your reference to "the battlewagon." If you've got a battlewagon, there should either be another one next to it, or trukks on both sides of it. And in those battlewagon/trukks should be boys with a nob, and that vehicle should have boarding planks too.

When I play, I've got a battlewagon with Ghazghkull in it (with a boarding plank/grabbin' klaw). Next to that battlewagon is another battlewagon with a Big Mek and a Kustom Force Field, attached to 15 burna boys. This battlewagon has a grabbin' klaw but no boarding plank (no powerklaws on board). Surrounding/next to/behind these two battlewagons are 4-5 trukks, all with boarding planks and a nob with a powerklaw inside each one.

Contemplate that: 5 trukks, one battlewagon. With Ghazghkull in the battlewagon, you've got a total of 20 STR9 powerklaw attacks and 7 STR10 powerklaw attacks that NEVER HAVE TO DISEMBARK. That's powerful anti-tank.

I roll that whole mess up next to a Land raider, or preferably multiple vehicles and start swinging. The battlewagon is pretty big, and that grabbin' klaw can grab anything within 2" - you can probably position it next to at least two enemy vehicles if they've got more than 1-2 vehicles. So you can have Ghazghkull swing on a land raider. If you pop it...kudos; drop your grabbin' klaw on the other vehicle. But the grabbin' klaw is there for redundancy. In case you can't get through on your assault phase, you can lock them down during their movement phase so that on your next assault phase you can pop it.

If you disembark and charge...your boys are going to die. The vehicle will blow up, killing boys, and the unit inside will charge you next turn, and your boys will die. I keep everyone inside my vehicles while I'm destroying their vehicles so that there are no boys to counter-charge. Instead, the enemy is going to get dropped out of their vehicles, and will spend their next turn shooting at my vehicles (in which case I have a 4+ cover save from the KFF) trying to get my boys out. If they get my boys out...I'll deploy them the best I can around the destroyed/exploded vehicle to prevent subsequent assaults. If they assault my now close vehicles....well, I moved 12" and they're going to need 6s to hit. I can live with that.

There's a whole lot of win associated with a mechanized ork list, and the boarding planks and grabbin' klaws are what helps MAKE them win.


------------------------------

Also, Zachwho - this list and modifications were made some time ago. I'd like to know how you're doing. Have you played it? Have you trounced anyone?

Picture this: Ghazghkull pulls up next to a land raider that moved 12" and takes 7 swings at it. You need a 6 to hit because it moved at cruising speed. Statistically with 7 attacks, you have a 100% chance of getting at least one hit, but chesson dice which 99% of the 40k world uses have curved edges and a non-statistical rolling pattern; they roll 10% more 1s than they should (you can find all that information elsewhere on this site). Then Ghazzy needs a 4 to glance, 5 to penetrate. Tight odds even for him. Stick a grabbin' klaw on that Land Raider and its going nowhere fast. Where you going? NOWHERE! That's where you're going. Now you auto-hit 7 times, and the chances of you turning it into scrap metal are exponentially higher.

I'm not sure if this is part of what you wrote, or the guy that PM:ed you, but...

1) Having a 1/6 shot 7 times definitely does not guarantee it happening ;p Likely, yes, but far from 100%.

2) That bit about the dice rolling more 1s sounds really unlikely to me... I know there's some fancy article about it somewhere but tbh it sounds really farfetched -- you'd have to test a huge sample for a huge number of rolls.

Also, why would it be specifically more 1s -_-? If it's some production deficiency you'd think it would show up in a more random way - i.e some dice would roll too many 3s or 6s.

Anyway, the rest of your post is of course useful stuff, and maybe the part I quoted was meant to be a joke or something =]

number9dream wrote:

2) That bit about the dice rolling more 1s sounds really unlikely to me... I know there's some fancy article about it somewhere but tbh it sounds really farfetched -- you'd have to test a huge sample for a huge number of rolls.

Also, why would it be specifically more 1s -_-? If it's some production deficiency you'd think it would show up in a more random way - i.e some dice would roll too many 3s or 6s.

Anyway, the rest of your post is of course useful stuff, and maybe the part I quoted was meant to be a joke or something =]

Instead of randomly disagreeing with something that you know nothing about, I'd encourage you to read the article. There *was* a huge sample set taken, of tens and hundreds of thousands in a laboratory and the reason that the 1 specifically has an increased percent chance of rolling has to do with the rounded corners and the pips drilled out on the opposite side of the 1 (the six) causing the most weight loss on that side....and stuff.

Skepticism is healthy, but useless if not steeped in available information.

Meh, I did read it but it was a long time ago, I just remember thinking "this has to be a joke" after reading it - I might re-read it I guess. Anyway, important part was point 1; they are independent events and not affected by eachother, so 7 attacks with 1/6 chance to hit each does not mean you are guaranteed a hit.

EDIT: Meh, re-read it and the thread about it - still veeeeeeeeeeeeery skeptical. Especially when someone posted in the thread that he failed to repeat the experiment.

I mean, really, 36 dice... That's a pretty small sample when there's literally hundreds of thousands of different production cycle generations of dice out there >.<