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Alpharius wrote:I think it is fairly commonly accepted that GW included the Tau in a rather sad attempt to pander to the Anime/Battletech crowd.

Maybe!

Maybe indeed...
I don't know who's bright idea this originally was, but I see nothing even vaguely anime in Tau except maybe Samurai-esque thigh armor and shoulder plate. Add to that the fact that Tau emerged back before the big anime invasion of 2000. I think any appeal they have to the anime fans is entirely incidental. But who really knows...

I think the book Firewarrior actually does a good job telling the story from a Tau point of view. A lot of the observations made by the characters are creatively described from a Tau point of view. It's only downfall is the idea of a Firewarrior being capable of large scale, single-handed, space marine slaughter... Much as I truly enjoyed space marines being portrayed as oafish, arrogant and inferior (pretty much the way I see them), the book goes just a little overboard with what Kais is able to do. Other than that it's a good, fun read.
I do wish they'd write more books about Tau. I tried to read Star Of Damocles, by Andy Hoare, about the Damocles Crusade. I thought there was going to be some hot Tau-on-Imperium action, but no, it's pretty much all about the imperium. Tau just make a brief cameo once or twice.

Dude anime has been around considerably longer than 2000. You're also forgetting non-European markets GW would like to penetrate further. Crisis suits scream bad British mecha.

Frazzled wrote:Dude anime has been around considerably longer than 2000.

Only with a cult following. Around 2000 is when Saturday morning cartoons were filled with baby robot ninja animals and no kid was cool that didn't play Japanese collectible card games.

I would like to see more books based on the xeno's point of view I get really tired of reading of once again some random SM wiped out tons of people with with chainsword and bolt pistol. Gets old after the 100th time you read it.

Skrew dem panzies 'nd bluw berriez. Letz 'ee zom Orks! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGHH!

Tyranids are the bad guys in the short story "Fight or Flight," where Ciaphas Cain makes his first appearance. Tau appear in the first Cain novel For the Emperor. There are both Tau and Kroot characters. They have names, lines, and everything. They only appear for a handful of paragraphs at a time, obviously. Necrons are in the Cain short story "Echoes of the Tomb" and pair up with the Orks as villains in the second novel Caves of Ice.

And that's just the Cain stuff I've read. I'd say the races are all well represented as bad guys. I think that's as good as we'll get for Orks, Necrons, and 'nids.

Despite walking the knife-edge of "Tau: good or evil?," this thread does have some interesting points. Is the Eldar perspective so very alien? In a word, absolutely. Now, can you say "well, isn't such-and-such pretty human?" and the answer is also yes. You see, the Eldar were made up by humans. But make the leap of faith (and why not, if you accept eight-foot-tall genetic supermen in power armor?) and take the fluff seriously: the Eldar don't do things for any reason that a human could easily understand if understand at all. When humans interpret their actions it's from the human perspective and that falls short.

Actually, I find Xenos (well Eldar, Orks and maybe Tau) more easy to identify than:

Large numbers of faceless guys running into a meatgrinder

OR

Superhuman indestructible mega soldiers who have shed their humanity to protect humanity.

Things like Eldar pirate bike gangs or following the tales of an Ork mekboy really isn't any further displaced than any Space Marine. All the guardsmen novels seem to be exceptions rather than the rule.

40k is ultimately a clash of cultures. It isn't actually Human vs. Alien at all, but Imperial Culture vs. Ork Culture vs. Eldar Culture etc. Saying they are 'too hard to identify with' is just an excuse.

I have to disagree with you on the Eldar. Every single time we've seen them portrayed and been given insight onto their actions they are doing what they do to help their race survive. That is a very simple and easy to understand motivation. The only thing that makes their actions seem incomprehensible to an outsider, say a member of the in universe Imperium, is that they are operating on a different time table. They are doing things that are incomprehensible now because in 50, 100, 1,000 years their actions will guide one of the other races to do something that will benefit the eldar.

From an in universe perspective of someone like a Space Marine or a random Imperial citizen what they do makes absolutely no sense. Why would they invade this world, fight for weeks, then when one random guy dies do they just run away and pull out. Incomprehensible. Go to the Eldar side and you find out that the random guy they killed would have become a great general in about two centuries, defended a human world from the 'Nids, and turned that hive fleet into a pocket of orks who get displaced and wind up attacking the craftworld the eldar came from. Sure it means a few billion humans die but it saves the eldar's bacon. From the Eldar perspective it makes sense even if it is a bit convoluted.

Now if you want to ignore it and call it just bad writing by people who can't grasp what alien means then go for it. However it meshes with what's been written. Incomprehensible to the outsider, perfectly understandable if you've got the info the Eldar are operating on.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I mean that the Eldar are incomprehensible in the same sense that Space Marines exist: because GW says so. This is a fluff caveat and you just have to roll with it if you want to "get" the Eldar flavor. Like I said, they were made up by humans to entertain other humans so they're not actually utterly alien. Frankly, I think you kind of answer your own points. You say the Eldar motive to survive as a race makes their actions ultimately easy to understand presumably because 40k humanity has the same motive. But you also acknowledge that Eldar trace an inscrutably complicated path to achieve their goals. So look at it this way: A human and an Eldar both need to eat and drink. That doesn't really make them too much alike, does it? They think differently. Instead of going to the kitchen for a glass of water, they blow up a star in Segmentum Obscurus that will shift the galactic-wide pull of gravity so that a spring in the Ultima Segmentum forms that will eventually contain the Eldar equivalent of Evian at exactly 200 degrees Farenheit. Why so hot? Who knows? But they're currently trying to blow up another star in the Domocles Gulf. I wonder if that has something to do with it . . .

Actually, I would think the pre-planning and convoluted plots are entirely due to the Farseers, who are about as detached from most of the population is as the High Lords of Terra (actually probably moreso).

Most Eldar generally don't question it, as it gives them an excuse to go to battle; they seem unusually motivated to go. I think it was 2nd ed where you find Warlock (I think) musing on this fact.

I think that's where the alieness of Eldar is; they're more similar to Orks in that sense. Whereas Farmer Joe might want to join the guard so his family can have a better life and survive, or he got press-ganged in, Eldar painter Urien goes because he's after the excitement (though he won't admit it).

Your standard Guardsmen might be terrified of the figure of a Choas Space marine standing over him; in the 2nd ed book, an Eldar civilian (guardian) is in the exact same position but he doesn't feel fear; not even anger but instead notices the details on the armour of his assailant.

The Tau being the Good Guys might have been the original intention but it simply comes down to the fact that they give you the chance to join or die rather than just saying that you die. For stories people want to be taken away to a different place. Yes, going and trying to relate to it is part of it but placing yourself in another world is what stories are all about.

I've not yet read Firewarrior but I've been trying to find a copy of it to read. Amazon looks like the place I'm gonna have to go with. As for having books dealing with Aliens we can see plenty all over the place. The major story is Chaos vs the Imperium right now.

In Hammer of Deamons we see into a Chaos world but we also see into the Eldar and Orks in side stories. These are side stories however adn a lot of this thread has mentioned how the enemy has been an alien species. Firewarrior is the only one I know that focuses on an alien currently and the one coming out next year (The Path of the Warrior?) is the second of such. I personally would like to see more alien books - some focusing on Orks and all of the other races as well.

With a good Author anyone will be able to relate to the story. This is what makes an Author great. if you have sub par writing even relating to Space Marines will be impossible. Sure they are human but they are Super-human and engineered for battle.

Sorry this post was kind of all over ...

rogueeyes wrote:The Tau being the Good Guys might have been the original intention but it simply comes down to the fact that they give you the chance to join or die rather than just saying that you die.

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People keep saying this but there is nothing in official fluff to indicate it. It's just something players say because they like the grimdark background.

There's no solid information about the Tau form of government and how it includes the various alien species. The hints we've got indicate the Gue'vesa are allowed to run their own local governments and religion. The Nicassar and Kroot seem to be willing partners. They have their own ships and technology. The Demiurg seem to be loosely allied, united to Tau by their hatred of Orks.

Imperial sources depict Tau encroachment as a matter of insinuating themselves into frontier regions and turning planets by offering benefits (technology trading) rather than straight conquest.

Kilkrazy wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:The Tau being the Good Guys might have been the original intention but it simply comes down to the fact that they give you the chance to join or die rather than just saying that you die.

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People keep saying this but there is nothing in official fluff to indicate it. It's just something players say because they like the grimdark background.

There's no solid information about the Tau form of government and how it includes the various alien species. The hints we've got indicate the Gue'vesa are allowed to run their own local governments and religion. The Nicassar and Kroot seem to be willing partners. They have their own ships and technology. The Demiurg seem to be loosely allied, united to Tau by their hatred of Orks.

Imperial sources depict Tau encroachment as a matter of insinuating themselves into frontier regions and turning planets by offering benefits (technology trading) rather than straight conquest.

It's true that it is not stated straight out. If you've looked at the different things the Tau do it is mostly behind the scenes conquest. The water caste negotiators offer goods for the frontier worlds to join them. What has happened when peopel did not willingly join the Tau? A battle has occurred. This happened with the Orks. This happened with the Imperium. Tau do not do straight out battle. This can be seen by their ranged weaponry as well as by their dislike of close combat. In diplomacy it is the same way. Whereas the Tau would like to diplomatically take over and control a planet if they must they will conquer it with force. In the codex the fluff perspective is everyone needs to join the greater good. The Tau are the greater good. Not the Imperium not the Eldar but the Tau way of thinking. If you work with them then they are nice ... otherwise you will be getting a pulse rifle fired at you.

When compared with the others across the galaxy this is actually civilized whereas when looking at the Imperium you do not get the decision to join or not join. You simply must obey. That's the major difference I've seen from the different fluff I've read between the codex, white dwarf, and the Imperial Armour Taros Campaign.

The real potential "evil" of Tau lies within their culture, imo. Their society is designed to work around the Greater Good, which as I understand it would potentially leave little room for individual goals and desires(something that benefits the individual only and not the Greater Good might be deemed bad practice, to say the least).

Not to mention the Ethereals bear considerable amounts of power and influence, perhaps too much. If the Imperium really wanted to rid themselves of Tau, they should look into developing a biological weapon that targets Ethereals(maybe their selective breeding would work against them that way; water caste diplomats(and traders?) would not be affected by the weapon and therefore it would go unnoticed, but still carry strain...but I'm just spewing randomness here.

As far as Eldar, I would be very much interested to get a deeper look into the different Paths, and some more solid information how Eldar society functions(monetary systems, employment, etc.).

There's also the issue of the interpretation of the Greater Good. One could easily argue that an Imperial system should be slaughtered because the corruption of officials and marketers make the galaxy overall worse.

I honestly think it would be hard for them to do an Eldar book- They are infinetly more complicated than the Imperium would have people believe- you could do them as side charaters- but that would be it-IMO. From reading a great deal of the 40K books there are very few if any that I would want to write such a book as the book tend to be terrible with a few exceptions. There have been precious few "good/interesting" books as it were. If they ever DID do it- I would definately pick it up immediately. I liked the way they handled the Striking scorpion in The second DH's Book- but again he was a secondary character and out of his element. As for the Tau- They wouldn't really interest me- for the long haul- I could read tons of short stories about them, the Kroot, the Vesbid, ect, but as a whole- I think it may be a little too "Star Trek the next generationish". By that I mean they meet someone negotiate, then agree or fight...blah blah the standard formula. The renegade-his name escapes me- He could prove to be very interesting. This of course would break the typical- "Everything for the Human's perspective" narrative they usually use but if not overdone would be very very fun to read.

the comanders name is shas'O shovah or farsight

There's a few short stories in the old Tau codex...I just noticed that there's not a single piece of fluff in the most recent one.


Something that really bugged me about Tau pov fluff was how random Tau words were thrown into sentences...

"Commander, the gue'la are attacking" or whatever...

Either write the entire thing in Tau or just use 'humans', changing a few words to made up words does not an alien culture make..

I don't think GW are interested in making up an alien culture for the Tau.

On the plus side that leaves the field open for fans to do their own thing.

If you want Tau fluff and stuff then play Firewarrior. Its a video game where you play as a Tau Firewarrior.

Hmmm firewarrior...

anyways a novel from a eldar pov would be good esp if fighting/hunting chaos (slaanesh)
yes it would be 'hard' but maybe a writer could be hired?
a REAL writer.

more tau novels defo. Could work with mulitple threads ethereal, shas'o, firewarrior, IG major, IG trooper

'for OUR greater good'

anybody miss all the fluff from WD?

oh whoever said tau are faceless and march into the meatgrinder has got COMPLETELY the wrong idea

Where does it say the tau castrate people? Also on a side note, the one fire warrior taking out a squad of marines is simply because it takes at least one scene where the main character is a perfect example of total bad assery.

on DOW DC when you win as the tau it says that they 'sterilised' the surviving humans and i agree with the bad assery

DoW isn't canon.

Kilkrazy wrote:DoW isn't canon.

Agree with you there, in the tau codex there's a brief story about humans living with the tau. And in the book Lord of the Night they briefly mention humans that ally themselves with the tau, they're called tauist or something.

i believe the tau use the term gui'vesa or human helper

Gue'vesa.

The inquisition calls them tauist.

Kilkrazy wrote:DoW isn't canon.

I agree, and if anything it was not that good of a game anyways.

There's an elder book coming out... eventually check out the black library website

Kilkrazy wrote:DoW isn't canon.

Really? I thought it was GW sanctioned and therefore cannon, as it brought about the existence of Blood Ravens. Then again, almost nothing in the Black Library is canon either. If anything, the BL just confuses people.