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Razerous wrote:Erm.. I apologise for my ignorance, but what stats do the GKT's have?

As for rubbish advice, again I apologise, I only meant inaccurate advice or badly biased advice.

Grey Knight Terminators have basic terminator stats (T4, 2+/5++, etc), ld10 fearless, storm bolters (with the option for 2 psycannons) and S6 power weapons. They cost 6 points each more than ogryns.

Basically, you trade the wounds on the ogryns for better everything else and end up with a combat unit that's actually worth taking.

I've heard all the agruements for and against the Ogryns, at the end of the day I've only played against them a handful of times and my regular CSM kicked their teeth in repeatedly. Bonehead with a powerbayonet is required

Wait... 6 GKT's get charged by 6 Ogryns (Yes, im being pro-Ogryns, just for the sake).

GKT's loose one model to ripper guns.

GKT's swing 10 times, hit (their WS4 or 5? I assume 4, as you said standard Termie stats) 5 times and wound 3 times, I put one wound on Bone 'ead and two wounds on another Ogryn. - I loose no models.

Ogryns swing 25 times, hit 12.5, wounding 10.4 and killing 1.7 GKT's.

GKT's have lost 2.7 (3) models, I've lost none and taken a few wounds. Whats going on here with peoples math? Sure if the GKT's get the charge they will deal lots more damage (from storm bolters and extra attacks as well as denying the Ogryn attack & +1Str) but so far people have generally made it seem like Ogryns will loose regardless. Its confusing.

Why are you figuring Ogryns get the charge? They won't.

Why do you get to shoot, but the terminators don't? They have a longer range than you do. No your AV12 transport won't stay up for more than 2 turns, the rest of your army isn't threatening enough to draw fire.

How have you even gotten that close with a full squad? Is your opponent just sitting there waiting for you? This is something a stupid player would do. So ogryns are the anti-idiot unit? That doesn't sound very competitive to me.

So yeah, if the stars and planets align in precisely the right formation ogryns can stick it to grey knight terminators (not really, the GTK still win combat in your example). Jump back to reality for a moment and you'll realize that your scenario will never happen in a serious game. You can't take a slow, relatively squishy unit and look at it in a vacuum. Your opponent has 3 turns (yes, really! 12" move, 12" move and dismount, 6" move 6" charge. if you've managed to corner him.) before you can even touch him. I'm not going to let that squad live, much less hit me at full strength.

Look at assault terminators as an example of a CC unit that makes sense to take for 40 points apiece. They WILL charge. They WILL hit at full strength. They CAN get a turn 2 assault. Ogryns won't, won't, and can't.

also, GKTs are indeed WS5. My bad, I wasn't reading off of the codex when I posted. If you figure this in with the 13 attacks they get (2 x 5 + 3) they'll cause at least 5 wounds on the ogryns. That means you will lose a model, which brings your attacks down. Now you're only killing 1.1 terminators and they'll mop you up in the next round of combat.

The stars and planets align... and still they're not very good.

Play them if you want, but calling them competitive is just silly

GKT's weapon skill 5 by the way. Most of the time the GKTs will be assaulting from a Land Raider - and even if not, GKTs are the better unit.

Amended Mathhammer:

I'll stick with lose 1 model for r-guns.

11 attacks back (GKTs have to be led by a BC):

7.33 hit, 4.88 (call it 5) wounds.

So, An ogryn dead and another on 1 wound...

Ogryns kill 1.46 GKTs

Next round GKT do another 4 wounds, Ogryns do 1...

Umm, GKTs win, the ogryns might even have run by now... and I doubt they'd reach the lines with full squad strength.

More durable versus shooting, better against a wider range of opponents.

The question is not Ogryns v GKTs anyway, its Ogryn general effectiveness v GKT general effectiveness.

GKTs rock versus MEQ armies... and guess which is by far the most common type of army in 40k...

I'm sorry - I really applaud the idea, I think Ogryns are a nice flash of character in the midst of guns, guns, and big guns - but the combat nasties out there - Death Company, Genestealer, TH+SS Terminators, Seer Council just munch ogryns.

Ah, WS5, that helps.

There arent many units that can take a charge just as well as they can give them, this is why im showing how well ogryns fight on the charge. If they dont get the charge, they will do worse. WS5 GKT's yes will do quite well against them.

But yes, I guess they are inferior to most things but giving the unit as it is; can it be fielded in a more effective format?

Have you already bought a bunch of ogryns? If yes, then just work them into a mech guard list as a tarpit unit, something to tie up enemy assault units that get close to your tanks. They still won't be worth their points, but at least they'll have a job they can do decently well. If no, then don't buy any. If your goal is to make a guard list that can handle CC well, GKT's or PAGK's are the way to go. Mount a squad or two in chimeras (like in Stelek's lol ride: http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/08/tactica-demonhunters-lol-ride.html). Psycannons are optional, but the ability to put out a bunch of S6 shots at range is pretty cool. Psycannons also ignore invuln saves, which makes daemon lists cry.

jcage wrote:Have you already bought a bunch of ogryns?

I hope not, at 20$ per figure they're one of the most ridiculously priced models GW puts out these days.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:Ummm, I have nothing against ogryns personally, because I've never seen them on the table (my regular IG opponent thinks the idea of big ogres running around the battlefields of the future is silly, and frankly I agree with him).

But haven't you (the OP) just ignored all the advice given that disagrees with your pre-held opinion, insulted the people who gave the advice, and said that you like your original idea, and will go ahead with it?

Why did you bother writing this at all?

Take a look at his post history, he puts something like this up once a month or so to see who bites. Just a guy getting kicks out of forum trolling.

*Sniff* Thats unfair. I checked my post history (and just now re-checked it) and I hadnt posted up an Ogryn themed list, I wanted to, so I did. Quite unfair but you could well be right, sorry if I've been trolling.

I'll borrow a friends models (He has a massive bunch of everything) and load them up in my chimera's and see how they roll - If they are anywhere near good and fun to play, I'll go grab some, Otherwise i'll take the advice and avoid buying those damned expensive models