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I never thought I would see the day America fell. But this legislation is it. What we have is totally unsustainable and this has proven that any sort of actual fix can not be passed while the right has any sort of power.
(That whole democratic form of government getting in the way again. If only the stupid would quit their bellyaching and do what they are told. America needs a firm hand!)

No they need to actually pay attention in school. A democracy requires an informed and participating populace. We don't have one. We aren't even close. We have a sheepish and mentally lazy populace that at night when the TV is on just wants to feel safe.

They continue to purge their moderates and give even more weight to the real faces of the party on television and radio.
(Blue dogs didn't vote for it either. )

Funny how it managed to pass one of the two areas it needed then.

This legislation will fail, or it will pass as an incredibly compromised and ineffective bill
(Yes those evil compromises. How dare their be checks and balanced and input from all interests, like has been done the last 200 years. Those bastards )
(Republicans an $8Bn cut in Medicare-crime against humanity. Democrats propose $400Bn-no big deal)

Cut the public option and you basically cut what the bill was. It's now just a wall of ineffectual legislation based around a concept thats been removed from the bill with so many pork-barrel special interests written into it that it might as well be written on a pig. It would have recouped its costs quickly through savings in the trillion dollar health deficit. Right now it's bloated, expensive, and ineffectual. You seem to know a lot about it, you know that already. In the attempt to make concessions to see it passed with an incredibly polarized house and senate the bill has lost everything that would have made it work. Thats the failure of democratic governance. A house divided can not long stand.

We've already experienced a lost decade between 01 and 10, with virtually no job creation
(other than below 5.5% unemployment through most of that but don't let that get in the way of your rant)

Funny how when it spikes above that for the first and last 3 years of the decade that doesn't matter to you. But then you must have a different definition than "most". Does low unemployment in the incredibly destructive and dysfunctional economic bubble that caused the entire planet to go into a deep recession when it burst sound like a good measure of economic health to you? Does it sound sustainable? Are we doing better now for it? Are going to do it again?

the stock market in effect back where it started
(you mean like in every other recession?)

Except it didn't really climb much at all in the decade. The dot com bust was a low point, the bubble was a high, now we're back to a low point (with no bubble to bring us up again by the looks of things). If you take the decade and average it we've made virtually no progress since the 90's ended and the next decade doesn't exactly look welcoming. A simple glance at the DOW over the decade shows a level of stagnation. We're below where we started 10 years ago, and the modest gains we'll make are going to be a far cry from the hotline wheeling and dealing we had going.

The bubble noticeably accelerated growth in early 06, it lasted for 3 years, and then cost us all gains and quite a bit extra in the months after the crash. 4 years of slow modest growth capped by 3 years of incredible gains followed by 3 years of a fall that put us below the start. It's a lost decade. The next one is starting out worse than the last with nothing to show for the effort.

, and rising population and health costs.
(different thread)

True.

Without broad ability to reform we're just going to keep stagnating.
(don't worry after getting tax and shuffle, massive budget, and this $1.2Trillion + bill Obama has rediscovered budget deficits so that should be cured in just a few minutes after he gets back from his walk on water)

No, it wont. When bush put us into 2 vietnams, fanned the fires of an economic collapse, infringed on our freedoms with the patriot acts, tapped our phones, jailed our citizens, lied to the country, cost us ally after ally, strained foreign trade relations, and cut bad trade deals he lost popular support, but no over the isle concessions were made with any importance. Now that Obama is in and the right is purging itself of it's middle ground things wont get any better. You know that.

Frazzled wrote:
Republicans an $8Bn cut in Medicare-crime against humanity. Democrats propose $400Bn-no big deal.

See, this would make sense if anyone had mentioned anything about the Republican cut. I mean, I know the development of a persecution complex is part and parcel with American political discourse, but that doesn't make it useful or interesting.

Frazzled wrote:
don't worry after getting tax and shuffle, massive budget, and this $1.2Trillion + bill Obama has rediscovered budget deficits so that should be cured in just a few minutes after he gets back from his walk on water

Economic history speaks to the opposite outcome.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I never thought I would see the day America fell. But this legislation is it. What we have is totally unsustainable and this has proven that any sort of actual fix can not be passed while the right has any sort of power.
(That whole democratic form of government getting in the way again. If only the stupid would quit their bellyaching and do what they are told. America needs a firm hand!)

No they need to actually pay attention in school. A democracy requires an informed and participating populace. We don't have one. We aren't even close. We have a sheepish and mentally lazy populace that at night when the TV is on just wants to feel safe.

Pics or it didn't happen baby.



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dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
don't worry after getting tax and shuffle, massive budget, and this $1.2Trillion + bill Obama has rediscovered budget deficits so that should be cured in just a few minutes after he gets back from his walk on water

Economic history speaks to the opposite outcome.

Agreed. I didn't put the appropriate sarcasm orkmoticon on (which one is that BTW?)

Frazzled wrote:
They could bust the nuclear option, they just don't want to. PLus Harry Reid, unlike Pelosi is extremely vulnerable next year and he likes that Washington gig.

That would be a filibuster proof majority, which they do not have, and have not had since Kennedy's death. The vulnerability of Reid is irrelevant, and Pelosi's half of the legislature already passed the current bill.

Frazzled wrote:
They have majorities in the House
They have majorities in the Senate
They have the Presidency.
What more do they freeking need?

A filibuster proof majority. I thought that was obvious.

Frazzled wrote:
Again Excuses are like holes, everyone has one. In this case the Democrats have plenty.

So why can't the Republicans support healthcare? Party priciples? God, so many damned excuses.

There's a significant difference between an excuse, and an actual impediment to process. In this case the willful intransigence on both sides has created the latter.

Frazzled wrote:
Agreed. I didn't put the appropriate sarcasm orkmoticon on (which one is that BTW?)

This one I think.

Though I think you misunderstood my meaning, or I misunderstood yours.

The budget itself will have little affect on the coming economic environment, as it most likely won't be accompanied by higher taxes. Those will be pushed forward 5-10 years, which is fine, because they've needed to happen for some time now. Unless you want to make some very brutal cuts to both the military and the entitlement programs.

Deficits don't kill economies.

OK I can't do this with both Shuma and Dogma, this is interfering with my pizza eating. o I'll focus on this and then go back to read mode mostly.
I AM NOT DEFENDING REPUBLICANS. Don't confuse me with one FYI, and I am nto going to defend everything thats occurred in the last ten years.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
They could bust the nuclear option, they just don't want to. PLus Harry Reid, unlike Pelosi is extremely vulnerable next year and he likes that Washington gig.

That would be a filibuster proof majority, which they do not have, and have not had since Kennedy's death. The vulnerability of Reid is irrelevant, and Pelosi's half of the legislature already passed the current bill.

Again, its not needed. They could pop the nuclear option, but they are cowards absent a spine. COWARD! Reid's vulnerability is extremely relevant. He's not pushing the bill because he wants to be re-elected.

Frazzled wrote:
Again Excuses are like holes, everyone has one. In this case the Democrats have plenty.

So why can't the Republicans support healthcare? Party priciples? God, so many damned excuses.

1. Who said the Republicans were any better?COWARDS!

Hey, lay off. Find your own word.

All this talk health care reform and what not... can't you all think for youselves for one minute? Your boy PresBO is scambling to cover his ass for a grossly ineffective "stimulus" pork payback program for his friends and you go back to Bush-bashing and Iraq?

Wake up and smell the coffee... the United States is broke. Career politicians have picked your pockets for the last fifty years whilst whipping you into a frenzy against the opposition party. You are so concerned with having "your guy" in office that you are ignoring the fact that you, your children and your grandchildren are going to be taxed into oblivion. The US is so far in debt we are in danger of never being able to recover from it and the Politicians are laughing all the way to the bank. They create artificial crises, set you loose against one another and then pretend to ride in on their white horses to "save" you (which always involves taking an ever larger share of your money and freedoms).

What's the answer? Throw the bastards out, every last one of 'em. Enact term limits NOW. Roll back every last damned spending item in our Fed budget except national defense. Take away the trough and the pigs will go elsewhere.

ShumaGorath wrote:

1. Who said the Republicans were any better?COWARDS!

Hey, lay off. Find your own word.

NAH NAH NAH NAH


Cowards!

(its bad when I can feel my posts devolving, oh well go with the flow)

Frazzled wrote:
Again, its not needed. They could pop the nuclear option, but they are cowards absent a spine. COWARD! Reid's vulnerability is extremely relevant. He's not pushing the bill because he wants to be re-elected.

He'll still vote for it though, for the same reason. He isn't so influential that his voice alone would turn the tide.

The nuclear option is an attempt to end a filibuster by majority vote. This requires 60 votes. A filibuster proof majority is considered to be 60 supportive members of the Senate. The reason the numbers are the same is because they are the same thing. You're saying they should invoke the nuclear option, while I'm telling you they can't because they don't have the votes. You need a filibuster proof majority to end a filibuster.

Frazzled wrote:
1. Who said the Republicans were any better?COWARDS!

Of course they're cowards. Have you seen the American electorate? Its full of distrustful loons who are generally too lazy to offset their distrust with consideration.

Frazzled wrote:
2. You can be for healthcare reform but not this harbinger of death personified in law form ("You are the harbinger of death Kara Thrace..." sorry)

This is pretty well what you're going to get no matter what transpires. The only major sticking points are the requirement to carry insurance, and the requirement for employers to provide. Also, there should be a corporate side to the public option.

The Green Git wrote:The US is so far in debt we are in danger of never being able to recover from it

And yet our WWII debt was higher when considered against GDP, and here we remain. Gross debt totals are next to meaningless.

The Green Git wrote:
What's the answer? Throw the bastards out, every last one of 'em. Enact term limits NOW.

So that each party can cycle new candidates through the system who have even less incentive to represent the the interests of their constituents?

The Green Git wrote:
Roll back every last damned spending item in our Fed budget except national defense.

Yeah, that good old military industrial complex never hurt anyone.

All this talk health care reform and what not... can't you all think for youselves for one minute? Your boy PresBO is scambling to cover his ass for a grossly ineffective "stimulus" pork payback program for his friends and you go back to Bush-bashing and Iraq?

You don't ever read the posts you look at do you? You just scan for keyword so that you can spin the wheel-o-persecution/superioritycomplex. Perhaps if you had read the context those words were used in you would understand that we were TALKING ABOUT THE DECADE, OF WHICH ONLY A SINGLE YEAR HAS BEEN RUN BY OBAMA. At least fraz and I were talking about my concept of the "lost decade" and the concept of voter apathy maintaining despite cartoon level hijinks in government. He said it would change once people saw big debt numbers with Obama, I said it wouldn't, look at all the other things pepople just ignored in the other 8 tenths of the decade.

What's the answer? Throw the bastards out, every last one of 'em. Enact term limits NOW. Roll back every last damned spending item in our Fed budget except national defense. Take away the trough and the pigs will go elsewhere.

Awesome, shut down all the schools but give our kids guns and send them to Iraq. You're a genius.

And yet our WWII debt was higher when considered against GDP, and here we remain.

Would that not have been offset by the money owed by The UK? Serious question - not trolling!

We ate roughly 9/10 of the material cost of everything sold to the UK. Then there was lend lease.

The worry isn't really the amount of debt, but who holds it. Something like 45% of the national debt held by the public is in the hands of foreign investors both private and national.

dogma wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
They have majorities in the House
They have majorities in the Senate
They have the Presidency.
What more do they freeking need?

A filibuster proof majority. I thought that was obvious.

This is a bit silly. They have substantially more seats than the Repubs did when they were in power and the GOP still got legislation done.

I should be clear, I'm not defending the Democrat's inability to pass this bill. I'm simply pointing out what would be necessary given the current political climate in which compromise appears tacit to loss.

The whole thing was essentially bungled from the beginning. The Democrats failed in allowing the Republicans to seize control the debate with what amounted to the standard political spin mechanism Rove made so famous. The Republicans failed in that the 8 years of platitudes they spit at the base essentially removed any trust their voters might have for them. As such, once the worst case scenarios were out, that's all that anyone who cared to listen was going to believe. After all, trust is only important when someone asks you to take a risk. When all that's being demanded is resistance belief is easy.

Well this thread went way off what I intended...Wrex, we could use one of your pertinent pictures to put this thread back on track...Oh and Magic Markers Joe Biden was brilliant...

Well... we have gone from Onion parody... to crazy train... KICK IT IN THE NUTS OZZY!!!




Some thread just slip... and fall... but, I do think this thread can maintain just the right amount of derailment containment.

JEB_Stuart wrote:...Oh and Magic Markers Joe Biden was brilliant...

Thanks, I should really send it to the Onion to thank them for the laugh.

Interestingly, it doesn't appear as though any of the recipients are fake, but only that the Congressional districts in question have been misreported.

Obviously that's the fault of whoever decided to record incoming quarterly reports without checking the information therein. Though given the level of scrutiny such published information would receive it seems likely that any editing would be cast in a similar light.

I mean really, the 99th Congressional District of Puerto Rico?

the errors acount for less than 1% at the most maybe 2%, when it's all over. Oh boy, gut them all...

Mattlov wrote:Except for the (I think) three tons of YELLOW CAKE they found in Iraq? Not the dessert, the ingredient for making dirty bombs. That story that never made it to the news several months ago.

It got plastered over the fair and balanced right wing blogs, but the rest of the media ignored it. Probably because it was non-weapons grade, known to international bodies before invasion and was legal. Did the fair and balanced right wing blogs tell you that?


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JEB_Stuart wrote:That is my inclination, but it is still a major SNAFU, no way around that detail...

It's certainly a screw up. But we'll need a lot more info before we know if it's just publicity screw up or whether there is a real financial control screw up here. Getting some districts wrong is no biggie, but if whatever oversight they have isn't picking up that districts don't exist, are they actually reviewing the bigger questions, like how money is being spent and how many jobs its actually producing?

Time will tell. How strong and how independant is the Auditor General office in the US?

sebster wrote:Time will tell. How strong and how independant is the Auditor General office in the US?

The US Government Accountability Office, which is headed by the Comptroller General of the US, is fairly independent IMHO. It works as part of the Legislative branch, but the CG is non-partisan, and the department works fairly independently. I think it is a fairly reliable source, and I have no doubt that they will be reviewing the entirety of the stimulus package. I personally trust them, but not as much as I trust the CBO...