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Munch Munch! wrote:@Rio:Oh well that is a problem, but in no way should not allow him to play. Me and my gamin' buddies sometimes do this if we forget say, our devastator with a melta, well then what we would do is take a scrap of paper, right what weapon the bolter guy is reprresenting, and get on with our lives. This is not legal in tournaments but if it is a campaign for fun then you should give him some leeway.(hope I spelt that right.)

I'm sorry lil buddy. If it were anybody else I'd probably sit back and say "Hey man, next time just make sure you get those standard bearers painted, kay?" and that would be that. This hasn't worked for me yet. No ruling/decision/instruction made by a tournament organizer has gotten any kind of respect.

He played several games without standards modeled, one too many games with spray painted grey marines with JUST silver and black swords, one too many games with unpainted models in an escalation league where the ONLY requirement to play was three colors...

It isn't just this one time... it isn't just this ONE thing.


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Dan wrote:I must confess: Roi Kuro is absolutely right, before my models were what they are in pictures posted above, they were pretty horrible to behold. Thats why I've gone so such lengths to make them presentable. In addition, I have another box of unassembled models, which I will be sure to build with bolters displayed.

Roi Kuro: I never tried to make you out as a "dick" on the forum here. I just wanted to see what other people thought about the situation, and to make sure I wasn't being unreasonable about wanting to play them as GH's. I certainly dont cheat, nor do I ever intend to.

Too late.

Hmm. I would disagree with using non standard bearing standard bearers (unless he gave me a really good count as reason), but since, here, he has done nothing wrong from a modeling perspective, i dont see the problem. He has armed grey hunters with what grey hunters are armed with.

alexwars1 wrote:Hmm. I would disagree with using non standard bearing standard bearers (unless he gave me a really good count as reason), but since, here, he has done nothing wrong from a modeling perspective, i dont see the problem. He has armed grey hunters with what grey hunters are armed with.

How would you model "Mark of the Wulfen"? Just out of curiosity.

Wait wait wait... First you talk about him cheating, but your cited examples are just of him not painting/modeling his army to your level of standard. Is that it? If that's the case, I could see why you would keep him from past events if his army did not meet the qualifications, but if he's picked up the slack and got him army to the expected level of paint and appearance, I don't know why you'd kick him out now.


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Roi Kuro wrote:

alexwars1 wrote:Hmm. I would disagree with using non standard bearing standard bearers (unless he gave me a really good count as reason), but since, here, he has done nothing wrong from a modeling perspective, i dont see the problem. He has armed grey hunters with what grey hunters are armed with.

How would you model "Mark of the Wulfen"? Just out of curiosity.

The one guy in my "counts as" Space Wolf army who uses this is dual wielding chainswords chained to his hands. I also point out to my opponent he has it.

Ah but we're not dealing with that escalation tournament are we Roi? He just wanted to ask if a GH squad equipped bolt pistols + ccw was alright because you said that was why you wouldn't let him play... But now your bringing in things about him not using WYSIWYG in games past. But unless your blind as a bat and can't see the pics, you'll see that he is trying to fix those problems on his SW.

Aduro wrote:Wait wait wait... First you talk about him cheating, but your cited examples are just of him not painting/modeling his army to your level of standard. Is that it? If that's the case, I could see why you would keep him from past events if his army did not meet the qualifications, but if he's picked up the slack and got him army to the expected level of paint and appearance, I don't know why you'd kick him out now.

Do I really have to go into every single example of questionable gameplay here?


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Munch Munch! wrote:Ah but we're not dealing with that escalation tournament are we? He just wanted to ask if a GH squad equipped bolt pistols + ccw was alright because you said that was why you wouldn't let him play... But now your bringing in things about him not using WYSIWYG in games past. But unless your blind as a bat and can't see the pics, you'll see that he is trying to fix those problems on his SW.

I don't have to argue with you here. I really really HATE dealing with this guy.

I'm glad he finally buckled down and paid to have his army painted. You have no idea how embarrassing it was before this.

I don't want to deal with him in a league ever again.

Well, if you're going to call him a cheater, I would use at least One example of questionable game play, rather than just a lack of painting.

@Aduro:Or modelling

Aduro wrote:Well, if you're going to call him a cheater, I would use at least One example of questionable game play, rather than just a lack of painting.

Ugh... alright. Once in tournament play he parked a Predator on a piece of area terrain which was about 6" long and 3" wide (Crashed Eldar Vyper). He was playing with a newer player that didn't know the rules very well. He then claimed a 4+ cover save for his vehicle being in area terrain. I happened to be walking through the tables and pointed out that he couldn't do this. He then proceeded to blow up at me about how I was wrong and how he got his saves etc. etc. I had to call in the FLGS owner to back me up (Regardless of the fact that this was MY league) it took well over 30 minutes of arguing the rule as it was written directly in the book before he finally relented and DEMANDED the game be re-started and he be allowed to re-deploy all of his models.


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Munch Munch! wrote:@Aduro:Or modelling

Chaplain Cassius... he took a jump-pack chaplain, removed the jump pack (Didn't add another pack) and then proceeded to call him Cassius. He was spray painted bright blue.

@Roi:Wait do you mean he took off a jump pack, forgot to add a regular back pack, and painted him blue?What's wrong with that? He could paint bubblegum pink and it wouldn't affect gameplay.

Ah yes... Vehicles in cover... I had a TFG in my FLGS who I had to explain to him EVERY GAME I PLAYED HIM how vehicles in cover worked. I finally kicked him out of a tournament for cheating, and he's never come back since. If this is a case like that guy, and not just a painting/modeling thing (i rarely paint, and model unorthodoxly, so it would be a soft spot for me) then you have my sympathies.

Munch Munch! wrote:@Roi:Wait do you mean he took off a jump pack, forgot to add a regular back pack, and painted him blue?What's wrong with that? He could paint bubblegum pink and it wouldn't affect gameplay.

Took off the jump pack... added nothing else... spray painted it bright blue... added no other color... and called it chaplain cassius... tadaaa!

I did in fact believe at one time, that vehicles got cover by being in area terrain. I learned something new that day at the tourny, and havent made the same mistake since. Also, I didnt "blow up" (though my vehicles all did! ) nor did I redeploy anything.

Heres the Jump Chaplain formerly known as Cassius. Ive gotten an actual cassius model as of two months ago

Aduro wrote:Ah yes... Vehicles in cover... I had a TFG in my FLGS who I had to explain to him EVERY GAME I PLAYED HIM how vehicles in cover worked. I finally kicked him out of a tournament for cheating, and he's never come back since. If this is a case like that guy, and not just a painting/modeling thing (i rarely paint, and model unorthodoxly, so it would be a soft spot for me) then you have my sympathies.

Yeah well... I just don't know anymore. Sometimes I just hate 40K because of this kind of stuff.

@Roi:So. I took a chapter master,got a power fist and terminator storm bolter, painted him white and called him Pedro Kantor. All my gamin' buddies did was laugh at it.

Dan wrote:I did in fact believe at one time, that vehicles got cover by being in area terrain. I learned something new that day at the tourny, and havent made the same mistake since. Also, I didnt "blow up" (though my vehicles all did! ) nor did I redeploy anything.

I remember having to leave the room because you wouldn't listen to me. I remember no fewer than three people having to explain the rule to you. I remember you arguing CONSTANTLY in your favor until you FINALLY relented.


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Munch Munch! wrote:@Roi:So. I took a chapter master,got a power fist and terminator storm bolter, painted him white and called him Pedro Kantor. All my gamin' buddies did was laugh at it.

That at least is a conversion!

If you took a chapter master and just called him Pedro Kantor and painted him black... then what would have happened? I mean with no conversion work at all, just... a black chapter master.

They would have still laughed and allowed it as long as I provided an explanation why he was equipped with, say a lightning claw and plasma pistol, instead of his regular gear.(He left it at home!)

Munch Munch! wrote:They would have still laughed and allowed it as long as I provided an explanation why he was equipped with, say a lightning claw and plasma pistol, instead of his regular gear.(He left it at home!)

How about in a league where the 1st place prize is a 65$ gift certificate to the store?

Well that is different. Remember you have to be specific.
If that is the case, then you should obey all rules and say he is a regular chapter master.

Alright, I'm another player at the aforementioned FLGS.
Having read through this topic, I'll say that Roi Kuro has a few good points.

First, it's his campaign. He chooses the people that can play in it. He makes the rules, as if someone disagrees and can't find a solution they can simply not play.
Second, there have been a number of incidents in the past.. let's say that tensions can flare up. At one point there was an attempt to quell, well, we'll call them "hostilities."
It was stated that the parties could feel free to play with other players in the store, after all neither of them own the store.. but they wouldn't play with each-other.
This eventually broke down, I can't recall exactly when, but circumstances had forced them together again in some games. Not great times were had.
Roi Kuro organizes alot of the games at our FLGS, and I'll admit that Dan not being able to play in those games is a bit of a detriment to his enjoyment of the hobby.. but some people just don't get along.
Compromise is the essence of diplomacy.. and when circumstances force that compromise to break, there's only so much you can do.

Right!
On to the point... those Space Wolf troops.
Here's how I view it.
If you dropped some Marines in front of me and asked me to identify them, I'd like to be able to tell with just the knowledge of what codex they're from.
Hey, there's some marines with bolters. Tacticals. They don't all (or even ANY) have bolt pistols on their sides or in their hands.. I know they're tactical marines.

Now you tell me there are some marines from the Wolves codex. You put in front of me a squad equipped with bolt pistols and close combat weapons. I'm going to say that they're Bloodclaws.
For me to identify them as Grey Hunters, they'd need a few bolters in there. Technically, they'd need only one bolter.. but I wouldn't be satisfied with one. I'd expect at least 50% of the marines to have bolters on their person.
Now, this is just me. It isn't my army, but I might be playing against them. I choose whom I will and whom I will not play against (in a typical game).

Roi Kuro doesn't want to play with Dan. This has been made clear several times.. and I've even made it clear a couple times (like in the agreement I mentioned earlier).
There have been a few instances where the Dan has frustrated a few people at our FLGS, including myself during a league game. Typically I am lenient, but when it comes to a game where I'm paying to be part of a league and there's a prize up for grabs at the end... rules are very important. I want to know that the other players are playing by the same rules that I've agreed to.
When players break that rule pact, it can foster dislike where there hasn't been any before.
Where there's been dislike already, it gets much worse.

Anyway, it should have been said earlier.. but Dan, it really doesn't matter what you do. Roi Kuro has made it clear that he doesn't want to play with you. This thread has only made matters worse.

Munch Munch! wrote:Well that is different. Remember you have to be specific.
Then you should obey all rules and say he is a regular chaplain.

Well everybody allows for some wiggle room when playing a friendly game. What we are talking about here is league play I think.

Its possible I was an ass-hat without realizing it at times. If that is the case, which it seems to be, then im truly sorry.

Ive played with some questionable models, like the Jump Trooper Cassius I have attached to my above post. I even went into a tourny game thinking vehicles got cover from area-terrain.

But Roi, what has me completely confounded, is that your refusing to let me into the league, well AFTER I've got to great lengths to get my army into shape. I even went so far as to make preparations for a really awesome looking Bastion, should it ever come into play during the campaign. Its already half finished.

I would have thought you'd be thrilled to hear I took your words to heart.

That's what I mean by saying that you should obey the rules in the league and play him as a regular chaplain/chapter master.

igotsmeakabob11 wrote:Anyway, it should have been said earlier.. but Dan, it really doesn't matter what you do. Roi Kuro has made it clear that he doesn't want to play with you. This thread has only made matters worse.

Im sorry you got dragged into this too.

If it was ONLY that Roi didnt want to play with me, I would simply let it alone. But him not wanting to play with me means I wont get to play with ANYONE, as everyone is going to be wrapped up in the Campaign every day for what would appear to be quite a long time!


EDIT: Perhaps it'd be better if we all sat down together one day, and talked this through, over a beer or two. My treat!

Munch Munch! wrote:That's what I mean by saying that you should obey the rules in the league and play him as a regular chaplain/chapter master.

Munch, I think this may be the beginning of a long and beautiful friendship.

Cool Avatar Roi Kuro!

Anyway, Roi: I would very much like to play in the 40k campaign, Ive been looking forward to it for some time now. If Ive really been acting like an ass-hat in the past, then im truly sorry, I had no idea I was causing anyone grief. Ive tried to clean up my act, get my models and my bastion ready, so if there's some way we could reach some kind of compromise, I would really like that.

Please Roi? Could you give him another chance?

Come on.... Group Hug!!

Aduro wrote:Come on.... Group Hug!!

I say put the gloves on and let us watch on Youtube.