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I disagree. Not with Alien being great, but with the idea that the moment you explain something about them all mystery is gone and that's the end of it. The Horus Heresy wasn't a mystery. It was two or three big events, Istavaan, the Dropsite Massacre, and the Siege of Terra and that was it. Outside of that we knew jack about it. It wasn't a real mystery so much as just a footnote. A name on a map isn't mysterious, it's nothing. Giving some framework, setting a scene and dumping a ton of plot hooks on you is exactly what a novel can do and that creates a mystery and a playground for whatever you want to do. A name on a map or a fragment of data is nothing without some flesh to it.

i dont think that the new books are spoiling it. all they are doing is giving a version for those who want it. regardless of what is being written it does not have to be taken as gospel. if people what to rewrite things then they can. of course, you must also accept that GW will now use the books as actual now.
also, what Tyyr said is totally correct as well

Momus I was going to say something to that but tyyr said it perfectly.

Aliens is the better film :p

No argument there.

I was talking about WHY alien was a great film

Except you missed the boat. The way Alien handled the xenomorph is nothing like the way 40K handled the HH prior to the books. If it was we would have had someone offhandedly comment that years ago the Nostromo had run into a big black bug that popped out of a guy's chest and killed people but they'd spaced it. The entire movie would have lasted about two minutes. You need more than that for mystery and suspense.

I was trying to communicate the concept 'less is more'

'If it was we would have had someone offhandedly comment that years ago the Nostromo had run into a big black bug that popped out of a guy's chest and killed people but they'd spaced it.'

no, thats how the current books are dealing with the HH.
IMO its speeding thru and explaining the fluff without adding any depth.

i think that the way the books are treating the HH is a bit heavy-handed.

do you not think that the concepts the books deal with considers a bit more ..care,respect,time,subtly??

MOMUS wrote:
IMO its speeding thru and explaining the fluff without adding any depth.

How so? We're finding out key details and answers with a "Behind the scenes" viewpoint that we weren't privvy to beforehand. The beautiful thing is, we already know which Legions turned, why they turned, when, and who won. All the books are saying is "These are the events that occurred within this Legion to cause them to turn traitor/stay loyal."

That's all we're really finding out. But we're finding out the critical key conversations between characters that, until the HH series, were unknown. We're watching the subtle changes of each Primarch and his Legion as they tread the path of Damnation.

As far as I see it, the HH books are doing the exact opposite of what you believe. If anything, they're shedding more light on the period. Which brings me to ask... Why would you be worried about the fluff not being illuminated in enough depth, if your OP voiced your concern that the HH books revealed too much?

I like it because it is adding depth the CSM legions which people used to whine about being so shallow ("ohhh I am so emo, the Emperor wouldn't let me fight so I got really mad" - World Eaters for instance)

I think that is good both in providing back story and, more importantly I feel, for current POV from Chaos followers which makes CSM armies more interesting for the players.

I am loving the HH books. I just wish they would go back to the main battle fleet and expand on what is happening with Horuss. The Battle for the Abyss was meh, I liked Legion and could not finish the Mechanas one. I need to get the new Dark Angels book as the first one left me with mor questions than answers.

From what I've heard, the Dark Angels books pull a Goto and get worse as you go deeper into the series.

metallifan wrote:From what I've heard, the Dark Angels books pull a Goto and get worse as you go deeper into the series.

I disagree. I liked them both, the new one even moreso than the first. They are very internal insular stories - both from the characters point of view and the overall theme. You really get to see the secrecy they inherit from their primarch and all the problems that causes.

Somnicide wrote:

metallifan wrote:From what I've heard, the Dark Angels books pull a Goto and get worse as you go deeper into the series.

I disagree. I liked them both, the new one even moreso than the first. They are very internal insular stories - both from the characters point of view and the overall theme. You really get to see the secrecy they inherit from their primarch and all the problems that causes.

So they're actually worth picking up? Excellent. Once I'm finished Galaxy in Flames, I'll have to grab them

gonna go to PM right quick

How could anyone compare the DA HH books to the tale of the multilasers? They're much better

MOMUS wrote:I was trying to communicate the concept 'less is more'

'If it was we would have had someone offhandedly comment that years ago the Nostromo had run into a big black bug that popped out of a guy's chest and killed people but they'd spaced it.'

no, thats how the current books are dealing with the HH.
IMO its speeding thru and explaining the fluff without adding any depth.

i think that the way the books are treating the HH is a bit heavy-handed.

do you not think that the concepts the books deal with considers a bit more ..care,respect,time,subtly??

I honestly could not disagree more. We spent what, three books working up to Horus going traitor? I don't think ~1,000 pages is really rushing through anything there. Fulgrim got a whole book on how his Legion went south, the Eisenstein got a whole book, the DA's are getting two, the Smurfs are getting three (can't imagine why), the Mechanicum is got a whole book, etc. How much time do you want to spend on each of these groups? Now I'll admit that some things got glossed over that shouldn't have, the Dropsite Massacre stands out in my mind there. One of the big three events of the HH we actually knew something about before and its just not given any real time. Then again what was important was already covered so I was mostly just hoping for more of the battle. Mechanicum went NOTHING like I was expecting or hoping but again, they got an entire book so its hard to say they didn't get their turn in the spot like even if I didn't care for it.

To be honest I think you're the first person I've run into who actually thinks they're not taking enough time with this. Most complaints I hear are that people want it to hurry the hell up and get on with it.

Am I 100% in love with the way the HH is playing out, not really. My complaints have far less to do with what's being written though and more to do with the way the series is structured, or the apparent total lack of it.

In fact if we're being wholey accurate, the Mechanicum got a book explaining just the initial betrayal and civil war, and Mechanicum was quite a weighty (and brilliant read). Plus, the books haven't even touched on many other themes and places of the HH.

See if they wrote a blow by blow, day by day, hour by hour diary of each Primarch (including what they hade for breakfast each day) then I would understand your displeasure. However there is so much information in the HH novels that still leave space for interpretation and imagination.

The only book I didn't like was Battle For The Abyss because it subscribes to the formula the OP mentioned (it was very start to finish, blitzkrieg style with all the characters of import dying within it, making it a self contained story which might as well have been set outwith the HH itself)

Momus, I understand you're a big fan of 2nd Edition. Simply view the HH books as 5th edition and ignore them ^^ we'll all just keep on enjoying reading them (The two Prospero books - I cannot wait!!!)

I've skipped reading most of this thread because I've only just begun reading the series and want to avoid any spoilers. So far two books into the series (I picked up the third today.) I love it. It's not ruining the fluff for me at all it's illuminating it. I can't put it down at this point.

Im a big fan of RT/2nd ed and maybe an even bigger fan of 3rd/4th ed
the transitions of both were amazing

while i do love the 'old days' i am a still a big fan of the current game -big up the south west corps!

metallifan wrote: Which brings me to ask... Why would you be worried about the fluff not being illuminated in enough depth, if your OP voiced your concern that the HH books revealed too much?

ok, did anybody else think that with the 13th black crusade and necron codex release alot of 'plot loops' were closed?


metallifan, i think that the books are portraying certain times laying them down in concrete ('revealing too much') without adding enough detail. They are also not adding IMO, enough substance.

do you not want more 'myserty'/intrigue?

i am very glad that they have aknowledged an important part of 40k lore with its own book series.






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I prefer shades of grey

rather then get spoon fed someones literary baby

soz if thats harsh

MOMUS wrote:

metallifan, i think that the books are portraying certain times laying them down in concrete ('revealing too much') without adding enough detail. They are also not adding IMO, enough substance.

Hang on...lets analyse (since I lurve analysing) ^^

The First three books - Showed the Mournival and the working of Horus' Legion (in some depth I might add), went into depth about Horus' character (three books worrth of character development, mmm yummy), showed the nascant birth of the Imperial Cult and actually made me like Abaddon (tough crowd)

Eisenstein - LOVE IT! LOVE IT! LOVE IT! Sure, didn't go in-depth into the Death Guard, but did reveal some fascinating things about them and their relationship with Nurgle. Left alot of rom for interpretation, but the characters in this (particularly Typhus) are all awesome and well-developed.

Fulgrim - This is like a love letter to fans of The Emperor's Children. It's a mammoth book with a huge amount of facts and detail, but concentrates on a few key companies, thus allowing people the space for their own characters.


Mechanicum - IMHO the only bad thing about this book is the fact that it ends!

Tales of Heresy - The short story format is actually brilliant! Angron is well-developed and is actually a sympathetic charcter despite being a homicidal maniac

Battle for the Abyss - Less said the Better...Although Skraal was an awesome, awesome character.

The DA books - First one was pants because it didn't really deal with the Crusade, second one was a lot better, and again it's multi-book for some hardcore character development, but doiesn't focus on the entire legion leaving space for interpretation.

From what I can gather MOMUS is that at some point in the HH books, something has been written that totally contradicts what you're view on it was, thus you'r damning the whole series. Again, if you don't like it or don't agree then don't read or acknowledge it. I happen to think the whole thing is wonderful, and builds a fantastical story but stilkl allowing room for your own tales and fan-fluff ^^

HH has been wonderful--first DA book and Mechanicum aside (sorry DLS)--and this is definitely NOT a case of less is more. Flight of Eisenstein in particular . . . so, so good. There were some stinkers in Tales of Heresy (see my review here on dakka) but it was about 75% great. I would highly recommend it. BL is mixed bag. Currently, the Salamanders book sounds gak but Cadian Blood has been awesome so far. But with HH there is far, far more to love than to hate.

DLS not at all :-)
like i said i enjoy the books as a whole but find them frustrating on some levels.
you yourself expressed the same frustration

in my local painting/gaming/fluff group and also talking to my peers there seems to be someone who hates each book (it could not be otherwise) BUT the common theme is that they dislike the way that they are being handled/structured.

im just thinking out loud when i say is it the fact that GW have changed the way they present the fluff?
is it to fit into the sci-fi conventions / ready made mould?

MOMUS wrote:is it to fit into the sci-fi conventions / ready made mould?

I think absolutely not. HH has strengthened the core novelty of the 40k setting, making it even less like the rest of the scifi genre,

MOMUS wrote:
lord z cuz died in book 5 chapter 12 page....'

YOU SPOILT IT FOR ME!

Also i agree with you a bit as gw is making it so that fluff is very hard to make... oh yeah what am i saying there is some damn good fluff on here!

Agreed Manchu. 40K is already so far from your standard "cut & paste" sci-fi environment that even if GW -wanted- it to fit in, it couldn't happen without a complete re-think.

I don't think the Necron Dex' or the 13th ruined anything, to be honest. If anything, the Necron 'Dex gave us even more questions and creative possibility, even though it closed the file on a few mysteries. IMO, the opportunities outway the expense. As for the 13th Black Crusade, what exactly does it ruin, if I might ask? Sure, Abbadon had better luck than usual, but he'll still blow it, as he always has.

Mystery and intrigue is good, but it's worthless by itself. There has to be a balance between the known and the unknown for a story to be worth it's salt. Some areas are written in a bit of a ham-fisted style in a few of the books, but overall I've enjoyed the two-and-a-half I've read thusfar. Fulgrim and Legion both had very fluid storylines IMO, and Galaxy in Flames is shaping up nicely. I'm finding it a little more forced in some spots than the previous two, but the mood that the book establishes as you get further into it definately excuses the somewhat-forced sections.

Fulgrim is definately my favorite though. The atmosphere goes from one of camaraderie and optimism to one of betrayal, perversion and maliciousness in an almost seamless series of events.


As far as your concerns about things being made concrete without enough detail, I still don't understand... You say the books are "revealing too much without adding enough detail", and then after that, you say "I prefer shades of grey". Which is it? Detail or lack thereof? You can't complain about a book not covering something in enough detail if you prefer things to be left unknown. That's extremely contradictory to say such things. I can tell you that there -is- plenty of detail in the books. I haven't yet read a single paragraph that explained something in the context of "This happened because we said so". There's always been a well-structured series of events or discussions that built up to each major plot device, and it'll likely continue to be that way unless Cassern "The S stands for MultilaSers" Goto somehow budges into the HH crew.

In that case, we would probably see a book written along the lines of...


"Then the Emprah did a backflip over Horus and shot him with his Multilasers. Horus deflected the Multilasers with his Multilasers. Then the Emprah dropped his Multilaser and grabbed his power-sword that was best power-sword in the Imperium and was better than other power-swords. The Emprah slashed his power-sword that was better than other power-swords at Horus' knees but Horus blocked it. The Emprah used his multilasers to shoot Horus. Horus got hurt. Then the Razorback drove in and ran him over. Then the Razorback that drove in and ran him over turned into a Land Raider. Then the Terminator and Kasrkin BFF backflipped off the Razorback and shot Horus with their Multilasers. Then Horus hurt the Emprah, but the Emprah killed him. Then the Emprah died but not really. Then they brought him back to Terra and put him on the Golden Throne and brought him back to life but he wasn't dead. The Imperium wins forever. I have a hard-on for Multilasers. The end."


...Yikes. Now that's a scary thought.

Luckily, that's not the case. And hopefully it never will be. As it stands, I (and it seems most others) find the HH series to be quite enjoyable. And while they -do- reveal some of the previously unknown answers, they do it in the perfect format so as not to ruin the overall story. There's plenty of plot buildup to get through, so it's not like they're writing the books in the form of "This happened, the end".

Like DLS said, I think your group just didn't like the explainations that the HH books gave on one or two subjects, and just decided the whole series is a waste of the BL's effort. I'd have to agree to disagree on this, as in reality the books are very well written, and I'd say that they're some of the best 40K content to come from the BL. And I have quite a hefty BL collection to compare to if I do say so myself.

metallifan wrote:In that case, we would probably see a book written along the lines of...


"Then the Emprah did a backflip over Horus and shot him with his Multilasers. Horus deflected the Multilasers with his Multilasers. Then the Emprah dropped his Multilaser and grabbed his power-sword that was best power-sword in the Imperium and was better than other power-swords. The Emprah slashed his power-sword that was better than other power-swords at Horus' knees but Horus blocked it. The Emprah used his multilasers to shoot Horus. Horus got hurt. Then the Razorback drove in and ran him over. Then the Razorback that drove in and ran him over turned into a Land Raider. Then the Terminator and Kasrkin BFF backflipped off the Razorback and shot Horus with their Multilasers. Then Horus hurt the Emprah, but the Emprah killed him. Then the Emprah died but not really. Then they brought him back to Terra and put him on the Golden Throne and brought him back to life but he wasn't dead. The Imperium wins forever. I have a hard-on for Multilasers. The end."

Epic.

I have got to read this man's work.

Tyyr wrote:

metallifan wrote:In that case, we would probably see a book written along the lines of...


"Then the Emprah did a backflip over Horus and shot him with his Multilasers. Horus deflected the Multilasers with his Multilasers. Then the Emprah dropped his Multilaser and grabbed his power-sword that was best power-sword in the Imperium and was better than other power-swords. The Emprah slashed his power-sword that was better than other power-swords at Horus' knees but Horus blocked it. The Emprah used his multilasers to shoot Horus. Horus got hurt. Then the Razorback drove in and ran him over. Then the Razorback that drove in and ran him over turned into a Land Raider. Then the Terminator and Kasrkin BFF backflipped off the Razorback and shot Horus with their Multilasers. Then Horus hurt the Emprah, but the Emprah killed him. Then the Emprah died but not really. Then they brought him back to Terra and put him on the Golden Throne and brought him back to life but he wasn't dead. The Imperium wins forever. I have a hard-on for Multilasers. The end."

Epic.

I have got to read this man's work.

You really do, if only for the laughs

imo most of you people are mental patients...
i admit that the hh books arent well written but there is no fun in mysteries...
seriously who sais "i dont know what happened in the bermuda triangle, thats cool"
or
"i have strange bruises, maybe i was abducted by aliens, its a mystery, thats cool"

@ the goto 'quote'

LTHTR

laughing too hard to reply


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cadian!

you just gave me an example!?!

the bermuda triangle IS cool because of its uknown properties!