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MOMUS wrote:@ the goto 'quote'

LTHTR

laughing too hard to reply

Glad I could be of service

Really though, I would say rethink your analysis and your group's impressions of the books and read through a few more. Fulgrim for sure, if you haven't. Even if you don't end up liking GW's playout of the Heresy in the books, you're still missing out on some interesting reads by dismissing them.

MOMUS wrote:@ the goto 'quote'

the bermuda triangle IS cool because of its uknown properties!

but details make the unknown even cooler. If you say "this place in the ocean had stuff disappear in it" that is far more vague (and less interesting than) "1945: December 21, Flight 19 (5 TBF Avengers) lost with 16 airmen, and later the same day PBM Mariner BuNo 59225 lost with 15 airmen while searching for Flight 19."

does the fact that we know that PBM Mariner BuNo disappeared while searching for Flight 19 make their fate less interesting? I think not.

that is really, all that we are getting from the HH. We all know which legions turned bad. We all know who the primarch(s) are. We all know who was at Istvaan. the fact that we now know more about the individual deeds there only enhances the interest and the possibilities for our own armies - in my case for instance, my World Eaters Termie Lord is bitter that Angron sent him on a boarding mission for the space battle than on the ground - his counterpart Daemon Prince was on the world and his deeds there helped elevate him to princehood (amongst other things).

Somnicide wrote:

MOMUS wrote:@ the goto 'quote'

the bermuda triangle IS cool because of its uknown properties!

but details make the unknown even cooler. If you say "this place in the ocean had stuff disappear in it" that is far more vague (and less interesting than) "1945: December 21, Flight 19 (5 TBF Avengers) lost with 16 airmen, and later the same day PBM Mariner BuNo 59225 lost with 15 airmen while searching for Flight 19."

does the fact that we know that PBM Mariner BuNo disappeared while searching for Flight 19 make their fate less interesting? I think not.

that is really, all that we are getting from the HH. We all know which legions turned bad. We all know who the primarch(s) are. We all know who was at Istvaan. the fact that we now know more about the individual deeds there only enhances the interest and the possibilities for our own armies - in my case for instance, my World Eaters Termie Lord is bitter that Angron sent him on a boarding mission for the space battle than on the ground - his counterpart Daemon Prince was on the world and his deeds there helped elevate him to princehood (amongst other things).

Exactly the point I've been putting across (and almost word for word too, in the first 3 sentances of the last paragraph )

We know the basics. We know the outcome of all the events. To say that the books aren't adding enough detail, when that's ALL that they're actually doing for us, is nonsense.

Yeah, I am in total agreement with you - you posted as I was typing up my last response ;-)

I still have faith in the series and would never 'dismiss' it

maybe its the 'ham fisted' parts that stand out a little more to me than the rest

the word 'glaring' comes to mind

i REALLY wanted fulgrim to be my fave but it just went a bit wide for me, i would not call it seamless... but enjoyed the EC pov

as for BFTA, i gave it away to a friend when i was done

yes they have 'detail' but in the scope of 40k sometimes i think 'is this only scratching the surface?'
the books are IMO presenting a 'clean' black and white version (hence the shades of grey bit) which leaves my imagination wanting more
i want to be challenged a bit more

so far its step by step, holding our hand through the heresy
can i have more chopping + changing people,persons,pov,planets,sides,
the nature of evil and betrayal, duality of humans, idealism, etc
also i want levels of interpretation rather than one (or two very strained) readings
framed narative anyone?






Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh ps

i cant wait for TS vs SW

my toes are curling so much they might fall off

rip their fangs out!!!!!!!!!!!

MOMUS wrote:I still have faith in the series and would never 'dismiss' it

maybe its the 'ham fisted' parts that stand out a little more to me than the rest

I think so. But part of letting yourself enjoy something is the need to look past it's flaws and see what's good about it. The HH books are no different. Sure, there're some parts that are written like a slap in the face in terms of directness, but much of the content in the books is very well presented, and far more fluid in delivery. You've just got to let some of the harsher spots fly if you're going to enjoy the books.

MOMUS wrote:yes they have 'detail' but in the scope of 40k sometimes i think 'is this only scratching the surface?'
the books are IMO presenting a 'clean' black and white version (hence the shades of grey bit) which leaves my imagination wanting more
i want to be challenged a bit more

Well the thing is, BL can only contribute so much to covering the HH without going overboard. Would people want to read the whole HH series if each Legion's story came in a 5+ book trilogy that chronicled -everything- in full detail before and throughout the Heresy? Probably not. At the same time, a book can only be so long, as some people take ages to finish even the HH books. Authors have to appeal to that crowd, because they don't want their customers to lose interest thanks to their books being too long. They need to regulate themselves to a length frame so that they can hold a reader's interest from start to finish, without using up their creative senses on one big book and then burning out.

MOMUS wrote:so far its step by step, holding our hand through the heresy
can i have more chopping + changing people,persons,pov,planets,sides,
the nature of evil and betrayal, duality of humans, idealism, etc
also i want levels of interpretation rather than one (or two very strained) readings
framed narative anyone?

Not so much holding our hands as pointing us in a certain direction and saying "Go!"

As I said, they won't cover every tiny aspect and minute detail because that would be ludicrous. The books would be huge, the printing costs insane, and the level of reader interest after getting halfway through a tome that goes so far as to detail what scalp wax Horus uses on his bald head would be rather low. If they keep the books a reasonable length, and spend time detailing the major events instead of noting every little quip and qwerk, then people stay interested in the story instead of getting snagged up on small things.

Do the books accurately cover a Legion's entire activities before and during the Heresy? No. But with good reason. A Legion is a huge body, and there would be so much to put into print that it would be nonsensical to try without losing sight of the entire point of the story. An Omnibus/Series/'History of' book for each Legion could do this. But not a single novel.

As for additional points of view/narration, you have to remember that one of the basic rules of writing is to keep your story focused on a few narrative angles so that people don't have to juggle too many main characters. You don't want a story to hop between the point of view of ten different people, because then you're trying to follow far too many personal accounts, and it throws the reader off and discourages them. That was one of my concerns with Fulgrim - they had about seven or eight narrative angles, and it was quite a bit to follow. The saving grace was that they were all written fairly well (some better than others, however). So while it was a bit of a challenge to follow the story as it kept jumping around, at least each jump was refreshing to read.


Basically though, it comes down to your own expectations of the books. Don't focus so much on the spots where the writing is a little too clean-cut, and you'll probably find the books much more refreshing.


AHAH! That's what it is! You're just unhappy because the Puppehs don't have their novel yet!

Then again, after reading the Space Wolves novels, I gotta say I'm excited for it myself

I hate russ and his gang of mongrels

i REALLY hope that the SW/TS book is not a '**** up the wizards with my axe' kind of story

That goto quote is going in my sig!

Lord-Loss wrote:That goto quote is going in my sig!

Can I be in yer sig too?

Man, Lord Loss totally screwed you on your IP ;-) that is why downloading codices and other works of art is bad (not saying you did it, you are just another casualty in the war on creative art and compensation) ;-)

Inorite? Damn him for not giving me credit for that poorly written Goto-esque paragraph of epic proportions detailing the final epic fight between the Emprah and Horus with Multilasers and a Morphing Razorback driving around on Horus' Spehss Ship!

Needs more multilasers

NO IT ISNT!
its just frustrating...

MOMUS wrote:Needs more multilasers

Hm... You're right. And rock-and-stick tank destruction.

Damn, cant I steal anyone's work these days

Each legion with 5+ novels!

YES!

Now you understand me.

lol

Heh, I don't doubt GW will revisit each Legion with an info-tome or an Omnibus later on, but at the moment, they're just breathing life into the Heresy, which pleases my Multilasers.

I really wish they'd do a World Eater book.. Just one not 3..

Admittly it would be hard to write.

It could be about how they stop cleaning their armor and become red or how theres such a huge difference between genocide for the Emprah and genocide for Khorne. You know how the battlecries change. It could have how horus convinced angron to break his oath.

Horus : The Emprah is a coward and went home.

Angron: The Emprah makes me Mad!

Horus: Have you seen this pamplet on Khorne.

The Deshea story was cool I wish they would do a book.

Also that Goto story was cool metallifan.