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Henners91 wrote:I know that there has been a drop in sales and apparently they had to close some stores in 2007... but a GW employee I talked to said they're opening new stores every year too... some also use LotR as a scapegoat; has GW made a profit from LotR? What kind of future does GW have? I had hoped someday to be able to teach my kiddies how to paint GW minis *sniffle* :<

Well, from what I've looked at, they not only made a boatload of money on LOTR, but are in very solid financial shape with very little debt. You don't have a hell of a lot to worry about.

Kilkrazy wrote:Novice gamers are unlikely to buy used.

Vets have the skills and knowledge to buy used, strip them and fix them up nicely.

Au contraire, mon ami.

I bought about 2800 points worth of mostly-painted Space Marines off a WoW friend to supplement my Black Reach stuff. Once I found Dakka, I promptly started rifling through it for information on the best way to strip them so I could repaint them to my satisfaction. I don't plan on actually doing the strip/repaint until I have a -very- good idea of what I want to use and have the time and energy to strip about 60+ infantry and six tanks/vehicles. (The Dreadnought I got will forever stay as it is, except for adding my friend's name on the parchment. ^.^)

I may well be the exception in this case, however. In my opinion, it's not too difficult to find tutorials and such for ... well, just about anything you want to make. I've soaked up knowledge here for everything from painting techniques (too many to count, many of them I'll use) to scratchbuilding Baneblades (who knew broken printers were good for Bitz?) to stripping paint (I have at least two ideas for acceptable materials). Even a novice at gaming could learn about these, and in my opinion SHOULD, particularly for learning to cover up and/or fix painting mistakes.

Part of the reason I went with used was the simplicity of having an assembled, painted army ready to go the day I got it, but part of it is that right now, I'm BROKE. Once I find a job I'm not going to be afraid to buy a few Rhinos and Drop Pods for my army; I just can't afford it at this point. *insert soapbox rant about the economy here*

TL;DR:
You're wrong, sir, I bought some used, and noobs can learn to strip and repaint if they're smart and know how Google works.

Clarification:
ok plastic quality being gak 2 examples ive given before. the gnoblers and the new space wolf termies (and old termies).
first the gnobs: with the new 3 up prosess they are using your getting smear effects in places (look at any of the arms holding sheilds on plastic gnobs.)
for the space wolve termies they still have a problem with the back of the legs where the detail gets deformed. space hulk new minis also have this problem....
So even though some of the products dont have a quality issue, some do. its been what? 3 years since the termies came out and the defect is still accuring, thats an unadressed issue that they havent delt with.

also that some peices break real easy and its because of 2 things. one the thinness (which isnt a problem) and 2 how soft the plastic is getting. (which is)
example, the SH box, the genestealers are made from a stronger plastic the SM softer.

Ive been fallowing the plastics ever sense gnoblers, because they were the first with the new tech, and i was so hard for em when they were released (lil buggers are so cool!!!) then i found the problems and now i look closely at everything i buy in plastic, there are alot of problems, and after 3 years none of those problems have been fixed. (as in reicurring problems keep reaccuring, the examples youve cited are not in these catagories, though id love to critiqe the steggie) products are still be released sub standard.
Skaven army book if you want a example of under a month.

Hawkins wrote:So even though some of the products dont have a quality issue, some do. its been what? 3 years since the termies came out and the defect is still accuring, thats an unadressed issue that they havent delt with.

The 'defect' that you're referring to is not actually a defect. The detail is deformed in places on plastic models because they can't (at least using the equipment that GW uses) have undercuts. So that particular problem won't just magically go away. That would require GW either investing in different casting machines which handle undercuts by casting the sprue in multiple layers, which would also require a resculpt of the masters (and would presumably raise costs, since they're paying for new machines and I would assume that these sort of machines would be slower due to the multiple layers deal, so the production rate drops), or cast them in more pieces to eliminate the problem areas (again requiring a resculpt of the masters).


There's a certain balance point that needs to be found with plastics... it's a tradeoff between level of detail and number of parts/castability. Generally, GW do a pretty good job of finding the point where the amount of fudged detail doesn't significantly detract from the completed model, although there are admittedly some that stand out.

Insaniak. well there were gonna have to disagree. i do see it as a defect, but i do accept your explaination of why its there. however.... i dont see why something like the back af the termies leg cant be fixed up, its something im sure they have seen and dont care about obviously because its not been fixed..
as an aside note the machines they are using right now are less than 5 years old, and with the 3 up process all corrections can be made on computer. its actually not as hard to fix things with the newer processes. the gripe comes when they keep the same mistake version after version.
termie box, CC termie box, SH, puppies.... just to name a line of progression. that to me says lack of quality when the product is not being looked at for flaws, and only for what gets slaped on next.

your right on the other points though.

Hawkins wrote:Insaniak. well there were gonna have to disagree. i do see it as a defect, but i do accept your explaination of why its there. however.... i dont see why something like the back af the termies leg cant be fixed up, its something im sure they have seen and dont care about obviously because its not been fixed..

It won't be 'fixed' because that would require making a new mould and casting the miniature differently.

In the same vein, they won't be removing the superfluous spotlights and such on Battle Sisters bolters. They're there to fill in gaps that the mould would otherwise have problems with.

Every casting method has its limitations. Models have to be designed within those limits.

as an aside note the machines they are using right now are less than 5 years old, and with the 3 up process all corrections can be made on computer. its actually not as hard to fix things with the newer processes. the gripe comes when they keep the same mistake version after version.

Sure, they can change the master file. But the end result still has to be castable.

It's not the age of the machines that's at issue. It's the type of machines. And given that slide technology has been around for quite a few years now, I'm assuming that GW have their reasons for not adopting it... Cost and production rates would still be my guess.

There are things that slide can do, and things it can't.

Molding plastic has fundamental limitations based on 2-D no-undercuts. Use more and more parts (which is what slide basically does), and you can address some of these issues but then you get more seams / flash to deal with.

And GW has slide molds - witness the Baneblade HB barrels.

GW is trading accuracy for playability / part count.

But addressing the limits of technology isn't a "defect" - it's inherent to plastic casting, and it's never going away, no matter who casts it. So knowing this, you need to paint / sculpt / adjust around it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

GW is moving to a single-owner model for their IP, just like every other IP producer in the world. GW does this via extensive use of somewhat less-expensive plastics that are a PITA to strip and prep for repaint, and by increasing prices. GW gets the same per-capita spend out of their core customer base, for less product, leaving less product available for resale to new / existing customers.

or the average person is a complete fething moron with no idea how to work with high school level chemistry products.

"aww, you want out of Warhammer and no one will buy your poorly painted models because they can't strip them? here, I'll give you 20 cents a model, 5 bucks for a tank."

I didn't say plastics can't be stripped, I said they're a pain in the ass to strip.

If you have any value on your time, stripping plastic models often isn't a good use of it.

Especially as most plastics don't disassemble like metal, so you're stuck with whatever assembly the original owner used.

So if you care what the models actually look like, and value your time, then secondhand plastics are a poor purchase.

Henners91 wrote:I know that there has been a drop in sales and apparently they had to close some stores in 2007... but a GW employee I talked to said they're opening new stores every year too... some also use LotR as a scapegoat; has GW made a profit from LotR? What kind of future does GW have? I had hoped someday to be able to teach my kiddies how to paint GW minis *sniffle* :<

Are you joking? Listening to redshirts for anything other then entertainment will get you nothing for something, somewhere.

GW opens stores, closes in on local markets and overtly cuts into the LGS buisness base. The stores better make money, too. or they can just as easily end up as stockholders dividend to make up for floundering sales where a good product at a good price would have done just as well.

As a redshirt, by the way, you'd better be making your sales quota, or you as well are going to end up flipping burgers with dreams of Space Marines dancing on your head.

That store don't make money to justify keeping it open? closed. That redshirt don't sell enough product? Canned.

Some years are hits and !@#$'s. Others are mere misses. It has always been and ever shall be because of value base to the product. If the product is desired, then people will buy it. If not, then mommy and daddy send little Junior or Sally in, they look at the product, see the price, tell little Junior or Sally-"Thats nice, dear. Now put it back and lets go over to J.C.Penney and drop more cash on overpriced clothes, You don't need this."

This product is based on the 8-18 market. If it is desired, there are sales. If not, then the rules blow that year and they have to make up for it in other ways.

GAMING is the operative word here. Either table top miniatures, P and P gaming, or Video Gamers all being the market in multiple sales of the same IP.

Its a Fickle Market, and the game either makes or breaks based on popularity. ( Dual Reason for the store being put dead in the middle of LGS market base.)

JohnHwangDD wrote:I didn't say plastics can't be stripped, I said they're a pain in the ass to strip.

If you have any value on your time, stripping plastic models often isn't a good use of it.

Especially as most plastics don't disassemble like metal, so you're stuck with whatever assembly the original owner used.

So if you care what the models actually look like, and value your time, then secondhand plastics are a poor purchase.

This is the third time today I totally agree with John. I'm getting scared....

Used metals are 98% as good as new. Used plastics are maybe, maybe 60% as good.

Those percentages are in ballpark. Stripped metal is generally close to virgin, while stripped plastic far less close. As I'm particular about assembly, I rate stripped plastic around 30%.

JohnHwangDD wrote:And while Osbad's volume shipment numbers are nice, GW would be happy to sell one unit at a billion dollars. GW is clearly happier moving less product for more money - they're no longer interested in carpetbombing the world with their product. The sheer volume of product out there encourages lower-price resale that GW doesn't get a piece of. Same with metal.

GW is moving to a single-owner model for their IP, just like every other IP producer in the world. GW does this via extensive use of somewhat less-expensive plastics that are a PITA to strip and prep for repaint, and by increasing prices. GW gets the same per-capita spend out of their core customer base, for less product, leaving less product available for resale to new / existing customers.

Which would be all fine and dandy if they weren't set up to mass produce a product which maximises its profit utility at high volumes. We all know that plastic models cost pennies to produce - once you have discounted the cost of producing their moulds. So it costs them little more to produce twice the volume. Obviously it costs them somewhat more in distribution costs, but marketing costs are also fixed, so don't double with increasing output. So one would think that their profit optimisation would come at high volumes, as opposed to low ones unless there are hidden variable costs that none of us knows about. And that I frankly doubt.

Seeking a maximum margin and minimal volume for their sales output runs counter-intuitive to their production model.

That's the bit that always gets me. If they hand crafted their models out of platinum, sure low volume, high value is the way to go, but these are mass-produced little bits of plastic. It does seem to fly in the face of economic theory to market them as high value, premium items. Surely if they pitched their prices so as to maximise sales volume, they would achieve a greater overall total margin, even though the margin per unit would be lower.

Of course, as noted above, knocking 20% off the price wouldn't suddenly increase sales volumes massively, but equally I am sure that raising prices excessively does harm the volume purchased, and to what end? Their fixed costs remain the same so they end up losing profit rather than increasing it.

At least that is what my outsider's view of the process would indicate. And to be honest, every ex-management former insider I have spoken to tends to agree at least with my assertion that GW haven't the first clue about their target market and their real price appetite. They simply run on the dogma handed down from on high that their customers are "price inelastic" in both directions and are addicted to their product and will buy it no matter the price they charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Those percentages are in ballpark. Stripped metal is generally close to virgin, while stripped plastic far less close. As I'm particular about assembly, I rate stripped plastic around 30%.

And I agree with you there. Stripped plastic is crap however carefully you try and do it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:I didn't say plastics can't be stripped, I said they're a pain in the ass to strip.

If you have any value on your time, stripping plastic models often isn't a good use of it.

Especially as most plastics don't disassemble like metal, so you're stuck with whatever assembly the original owner used.

So if you care what the models actually look like, and value your time, then secondhand plastics are a poor purchase.

Depends. For you maybe. But some folks also consider that if you value your time, painting is a waste. Consderig the price of plastic model;s nowadays, its actual worth the time to strip plastic.

Thanx to the highbrows for answering my question.

JohnHwangDD wrote:There are things that slide can do, and things it can't.

Molding plastic has fundamental limitations based on 2-D no-undercuts. Use more and more parts (which is what slide basically does), and you can address some of these issues but then you get more seams / flash to deal with.

And GW has slide molds - witness the Baneblade HB barrels.

GW is trading accuracy for playability / part count.

But addressing the limits of technology isn't a "defect" - it's inherent to plastic casting, and it's never going away, no matter who casts it. So knowing this, you need to paint / sculpt / adjust around it.

i guess im not explaining my point wel enough or clear enough and im sorry for that. what im tring to say is that 4 verions of the termies have the same problem its not just from one mould. they have ignored the flaws even when they make new moulds, and its rather silly because i suspect they are using the sam diagram over and over with just added bits and really not seeing it. the legs are the same desighn with the same problem weather its the normal assult termie box or the new SW box, each would have its own mould and the legs have the exact same defect, im not talking technolagy here, im saying that they are not checking the quality.

Hawkins wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:There are things that slide can do, and things it can't.

Molding plastic has fundamental limitations based on 2-D no-undercuts. Use more and more parts (which is what slide basically does), and you can address some of these issues but then you get more seams / flash to deal with.

And GW has slide molds - witness the Baneblade HB barrels.

GW is trading accuracy for playability / part count.

But addressing the limits of technology isn't a "defect" - it's inherent to plastic casting, and it's never going away, no matter who casts it. So knowing this, you need to paint / sculpt / adjust around it.

i guess im not explaining my point wel enough or clear enough and im sorry for that. what im tring to say is that 4 verions of the termies have the same problem its not just from one mould. they have ignored the flaws even when they make new moulds, and its rather silly because i suspect they are using the sam diagram over and over with just added bits and really not seeing it. the legs are the same desighn with the same problem weather its the normal assult termie box or the new SW box, each would have its own mould and the legs have the exact same defect, im not talking technolagy here, im saying that they are not checking the quality.

I guess I'm confused on how you want people to respond. Rant about terminator calves, or use their lack of finely sculpted terminator back leg bitz as evidence that they are going under?

As I noted, it's *not* a quality issue. It's a *design* issue.

If it were a quality issue, then some portion of the produced models would have the "defect", and others wouldn't.

That isn't the case.

As I understand your complaint, *all* of the minis, have the same "defect".

And believe me, GW doesn't ship massively faulty product. They may ship product that their bean counters have taken an overly-aggressive tack on (vacu-molded craters). They may occasionally (<<5%) ship things with excessive flash or insufficient fill. But to say that their QC standards permit broad shipment of consistently faulty product is simply *wrong*.

Don't go claiming a defect where none exists.

And if it bothers you that much, don't buy those models!

To be fair, at least in tort law, the term defect can mean three things: a defect in warning, a defect in design, and a defect in manufacture.

The quality issue you describe would be a production defect, while the design issue is a design defect.

Admittedly, that's different from the vernacular usage of the term "defect," but it's still proper.

I have to admit I don't get a lot of fun out of looking at the backs of terminators' knees.

@Polonius: That sort of thing is why we Engineers loathe Lawyer types trying to change word that are well understood from a production standpoint.

I have been seeing issues with the much softer plastics more recently - because im combining kits with plastic sometimes almost 10 years old (old zerker bitz I have) with brand new stuff (space wolves kits) - you can see a big difference.