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Well i remember reading the Index Astrates White dwarf and it states that it was never truly known where the alpha legion group is..... So could they be waiting to kill abbaddon or are they traitors? These questions will never be answered.

They are protrayed as traitors but what if they were not traitors. As the imperium is paronid of all acts.

But see every single, or most Space Marine chapters are completly overzelous and and well FOR THE EMPORERZZZZZ!!!!! doubt marines could be so.....secretive... without turning traitor or even having second thoughts.

On the issue of one of the twins getting killed in the Ultramarine ambush, I've wondered if that both did and did not happen. They were described as 'two bodies, one soul' and strongly implied that there was one primach to begin with and somehow split into two bodies when they were snatched through the warp, in the same way that Sanguious ended up with wings or Magnus with one eye. And several passages in Legion imply that each knows what the other is doing at any one time. Note when Omegon was talking to the marine that had pretended to be (him, I think, could have been the one playing Alpharius) after they left the pavilion. He knew beforehand that his brother was going to go speak with the guardsmen in the desert, but he had no way of knowing the outcome until Alpharius returned, and still seemed to know what had occurred.

It makes me wonder what would happen if one body was killed. Would the shared soul revert to the body of the surviving twin? They were described as one individual, could they merely have become that in fact instead of keeping their previous charade?



And I can understand 'losing' some records of that period of time, other legions *coughDarkAngelscough* certainly did. And thinking that you may have killed a primach, but not being sure, and then getting cut down nearly to a man in a series of cunning attacks by a seriously pissed off but patient and subtle legion is hardly a crowning victory and something that would be prominently told to all. It is arguable it was a rather severe loss and certainly a shameful event. Now, if Gulliman had have been able to confirm the death, bring back the head of the rogue primach and at least made a valient fighting retreat against great odds, things would have been different. Propaganda is a wonderful thing.

Morgrim wrote:On the issue of one of the twins getting killed in the Ultramarine ambush, I've wondered if that both did and did not happen.

You raise some good points. One question has bothered me ever since I read "Legion" and added its information to the Index Astartes article. Namely: did Guilliman know? All the Primarchs met and had dealings with each others, right? Even if they did not always get along ( like Lion El´Jonson and Russ ), they knew each other. Guilliman must have been aware of the systematic practice of "we are all Alpharius". When Guilliman faced Alpharius during that fateful battle, was he certain that the person confronting him truly was his renegade brother? Before burning the remains did he check them to make sure they belonged to a Primarch?

The second big question is whether other Primarch were even aware of Omegon? The Emperor must have been but the Index story suggests that Guilliman was working on the assumption of "one body, one soul".

ugh.... hours heresy novels...

The other point with the Smurf massacre is that ALL of the Legion's battle brothers are modified to resemble each other, so it could have just been Brother Insignifico and the bystanders thought it was really the big guy.

I recall that Horus knew (he was the one that found them and getting attacked by twin primachs is apparently a bit of a give away). The Emperor would know, because he is the Emperor and a good enough psyker to sense it even if they'd been trying to hide it, which seems unlikely. I'm not sure they told any of the other primachs. It was said that it was one of the best kept secrets of the chapter. Even some of the guardsmen they'd taken in and branded didn't actually know until they were called on it by those xenos.

Morgrim wrote:On the issue of one of the twins getting killed in the Ultramarine ambush, I've wondered if that both did and did not happen. They were described as 'two bodies, one soul' and strongly implied that there was one primach to begin with and somehow split into two bodies when they were snatched through the warp, in the same way that Sanguious ended up with wings or Magnus with one eye. And several passages in Legion imply that each knows what the other is doing at any one time. Note when Omegon was talking to the marine that had pretended to be (him, I think, could have been the one playing Alpharius) after they left the pavilion. He knew beforehand that his brother was going to go speak with the guardsmen in the desert, but he had no way of knowing the outcome until Alpharius returned, and still seemed to know what had occurred.

It makes me wonder what would happen if one body was killed. Would the shared soul revert to the body of the surviving twin? They were described as one individual, could they merely have become that in fact instead of keeping their previous charade?



And I can understand 'losing' some records of that period of time, other legions *coughDarkAngelscough* certainly did. And thinking that you may have killed a primach, but not being sure, and then getting cut down nearly to a man in a series of cunning attacks by a seriously pissed off but patient and subtle legion is hardly a crowning victory and something that would be prominently told to all. It is arguable it was a rather severe loss and certainly a shameful event. Now, if Gulliman had have been able to confirm the death, bring back the head of the rogue primach and at least made a valient fighting retreat against great odds, things would have been different. Propaganda is a wonderful thing.

This post embodies the entire reason why the Imperium is hypocritical. Ogryns? Oh...they're deviant...but yet they believe in the Emperor so they're ok. Ratlings? Ah, they like the Emperor too. Blood Angels and Thousand Sons Primarch? One has wings and the other has one eye. Ahem, hypocrisy up the yingyang.

Im a Tau fan, but the Imperium's hypocrisy is so chokingly digusting that I would serve Tzeentch in an instant.

The deviant primachs might be less hypocrisy and more preservation instincts.

I don't think any witchhunter would be suicidal enough to try and attack a primach with cleansing flame, even if they were around in the same era.

Besides, the Emperor giving his blessings are addressing them as sons is also a good way of shutting down dissent, for the aforementioned 'complaining will get you killed' reasons. I fully agree about the ogryns and ratlings, though.

Somnicide wrote:The other point with the Smurf massacre is that ALL of the Legion's battle brothers are modified to resemble each other, so it could have just been Brother Insignifico and the bystanders thought it was really the big guy.

Im sure that he would be able to tell if it was his own brother, even if his legion made themselves look like one another, you would be able to tell the diference between them, just how like John Gram did in Legion, he could tell by their facial features, and im sure Guilliman would be able to tell. If you stuck your brother or sister in a group of people that tryed to mimic him/her you would be able to tell no mater how close they are to looking like one another.

Morgrim wrote:The deviant primachs might be less hypocrisy and more preservation instincts.

I don't think any witchhunter would be suicidal enough to try and attack a primach with cleansing flame, even if they were around in the same era.

Besides, the Emperor giving his blessings are addressing them as sons is also a good way of shutting down dissent, for the aforementioned 'complaining will get you killed' reasons. I fully agree about the ogryns and ratlings, though.

I also think that durning those times, the Imperium was less fanatical, as they showed in the primach. And if the Emperor says hes good, like in the case of Sang with the wings, or even the one eyed giant, they are blood from the Emperor, just wish the Inquisition would see it that way with the Sensei.

Damn games workshop, leaving soooo many loose ends.