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You can use Paypal, but use your Credit Card as the source so it resolves itself as a credit card purchase. Double protection.

notprop wrote:No, you are covered for against fraud and identity theft as well a having your purchases insured for 90 days.

As I say it is the Credit Card providers money until such time as you pay your balance. It's great, one of the few times in life where you have a big corporate entity fighting your side. Complain and then watch as they chase down defaulters like rabid dogs, as we all will know if you ever miss a payment!

Of course there may be differances outside the EU?

You are assuming entirely too much. What your bank will do about credit card fraud is entirely up to them and the policy you signed (probably without reading it.) When my friend's card number was stolen using a faux Amazon website, he found out that our local (in the EU, might I point out) banks' policy is "sucks to be you."

Alpharius wrote:As much as this may be horrible to hear/deal with, this is VERY sound advice.

I'm currently trying to get either my money back or the actual item I commissioned from someone over on another website.

I'm certainly realistic enough to figure that this in fact may end up being one of those times when I lose this particular 'wager'.

Still, your best bet is dealing with WELL established players (and a nice-ish website is not proof of that!).

And that old "If it sounds too good to be true" thing often rears its head on the Internet too...

What's odd here is that the seller seemed to have some legitimate business going, with actual products for sale and so on (28mm resin scenery, wasnt it?). I'm pretty sure I saw product notifications from them on TTGN, for example.

lord_blackfang wrote:

notprop wrote:No, you are covered for against fraud and identity theft as well a having your purchases insured for 90 days.

As I say it is the Credit Card providers money until such time as you pay your balance. It's great, one of the few times in life where you have a big corporate entity fighting your side. Complain and then watch as they chase down defaulters like rabid dogs, as we all will know if you ever miss a payment!

Of course there may be differances outside the EU?

You are assuming entirely too much. What your bank will do about credit card fraud is entirely up to them and the policy you signed (probably without reading it.) When my friend's card number was stolen using a faux Amazon website, he found out that our local (in the EU, might I point out) banks' policy is "sucks to be you."

You are very incorrect in regards to US laws though. US ATM and Credit card holders have extensive legal protections. The credit card issuer cannot say screw you if you follow the appropriate (and very simple) steps. Consult your attorney for more info.

notprop wrote:Sorry if I am pointing out the Bleedin' obvious especially to you guys that are in the middle of this but ONLY EVER USE A CREDIT CARD ONLINE! Always research a website even if recomended by a trusted source, people make mistakes and scammers can put a few trades through to rustle up trade!

Not really the best advice.

Credit cards can be easily stolen, especially when used online. The estore or site can be hacked, or your PC for that matter, and your pertinent information is sold on the black market within hours. Happens to thousands every day. Especially with kids who are looking for warez, pics, music, movies etc on their PCs on a regular basis, as a drive-by infection can happen in a heartbeat (trust me, I used to do network security for a LARGE bank many moons ago). The internet is NOT your friend.

While yes, the waiter/waitress at a restaurant can do the same thing to you, on the internet this happens with way too much frequency. And for those who think they have complete buyers protection, please read the fine print. Some banks will only cover to a certain extent, or will "refund" you the payment AFTER they have secured funds.

Your best bet is to obtain a disposable/refillable debit/credit card. Some retailers (Walmart for instance) and some banks offer this service. You obtain one in a certain amount, or "fill in" the amount to cover the purchase, then use it online. If someone steals it, they have stolen an empty card. Simple as. Here are some guidelines:

Choose Credit Over Debit: You probably don’t often hear advice to use a credit card instead of a debit card or cash, but if you can do it responsibly, you absolutely should. Credit cards offer protection from identity theft that debit cards don’t. For example, with a credit card, your liability for fraudulent charges caps at $50 as long as you report the fraud within 30 or 60 days (depending on the company). However, if you’re using your debit card online and someone gains access to it, they can clean out your checking account before you even learn there’s a problem. It’s likely you’ll get part of that money back, but possible that it can take a while, and that you won’t get it all. So, use a credit card instead and pay the bill off monthly.

Disposable Is Better: Even better than using a credit card is to use a disposable credit card. Disposable credit cards work just like most gift cards. You add a specified dollar amount to the card, and it’s good until that is gone. Once it’s gone, you can add more, or purchase a new one. And both Visa and American Express now offer these cards in varying amounts, so they’re easy to get hold of. The bonus is that if the number from a disposable credit card is stolen, it’s anonymous, and criminals can’t gain access to anything more than the dollar amount that’s still available on the card.
Verify Website Security: The variety that’s available when shopping online can be dizzying, but it doesn’t stop at just the products and prices that are available online. There are also different levels of security that are available online, and you want to be aware of them. Some online web sites don’t offer secure shopping. That means that savvy criminals can capture everything that you enter onto a form on those sites, including your personal and credit information. If you’re going to shop online, limit yourself to secure sites. You can tell if a site is secure by the URL. A secure web site starts with HTTPS:// instead of HTTP://. Secure sites will also have a small lock icon in the lower right corner of the screen.

Don’t Shop Publically: If you plan to do any shopping online, do it at home. At home, you can shop in your pajamas (or nekkid) and you can do it any time of the day or night. You also know who accesses your computer at home. If you’re using a public computer—at the library, at a cyber café, or at work—to do your shopping, you have no control over who might be using that computer as well. You also don’t have any control over what kind of spyware or malware might be infecting that computer. So, just don’t do it. Shop at home. It’s much safer.

Don’t Store Information Elsewhere: Many shopping sites, even the major ones, offer you the ability to save your credit card information on their servers to speed the shopping process. Think Amazon.com’s OneClick shopping. It’s definitely faster, but there are some risks to maintaining your personal information elsewhere. If a company that you’re shopping with has a data breach, your personal information could be put at risk. It takes a little longer, but instead of storing your information on some server that you have no control over, just enter it yourself each time you shop.

lord_blackfang wrote:

notprop wrote:No, you are covered for against fraud and identity theft as well a having your purchases insured for 90 days.

As I say it is the Credit Card providers money until such time as you pay your balance. It's great, one of the few times in life where you have a big corporate entity fighting your side. Complain and then watch as they chase down defaulters like rabid dogs, as we all will know if you ever miss a payment!

Of course there may be differances outside the EU?

You are assuming entirely too much. What your bank will do about credit card fraud is entirely up to them and the policy you signed (probably without reading it.) When my friend's card number was stolen using a faux Amazon website, he found out that our local (in the EU, might I point out) banks' policy is "sucks to be you."

Pleased to say I'm not assuming anything my old son. The benefits of holding a credit card [or three] are very easily ascertained when you apply for them, why would you apply for credit with out any of the obvious perks you can get, just to pay interest? Plus since when did a banks policy over rule the Law?

It seems like a perfectly reasonable position to handover detail contained on a credit card to purchase something on the intawebz. If those details are then used to get more funds from the credit card without your permission then you are not responsible. It is the credit provider that has been duped in that instance and it is their responsibility, not that they will notice until you point out the fraudulent claim on you balance.

As for banks, well banks are very keen on telling you what you can and can't do when you ask them a quedtion, their first answer invariably being no, if your friend accepts the first answer given then more fool him!

Finally part of the point I was trying to make is to create a disconnect between all of your hard earned savings and the cold-hard-theavin' intawebz. It follows that you should put a disconnect between your money and the credit provider, so don't get a credit card from the same organisation a you bank with. They might be tempted to move funds for you to "help out".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spacemanvic wrote:

notprop wrote:Sorry if I am pointing out the Bleedin' obvious especially to you guys that are in the middle of this but ONLY EVER USE A CREDIT CARD ONLINE! Always research a website even if recomended by a trusted source, people make mistakes and scammers can put a few trades through to rustle up trade!

Not really the best advice.

Credit cards can be easily stolen, especially when used online. The estore or site can be hacked, or your PC for that matter, and your pertinent information is sold on the black market within hours. Happens to thousands every day. Especially with kids who are looking for warez, pics, music, movies etc on their PCs on a regular basis, as a drive-by infection can happen in a heartbeat (trust me, I used to do network security for a LARGE bank many moons ago). The internet is NOT your friend.

While yes, the waiter/waitress at a restaurant can do the same thing to you, on the internet this happens with way too much frequency. And for those who think they have complete buyers protection, please read the fine print. Some banks will only cover to a certain extent, or will "refund" you the payment AFTER they have secured funds.

Your best bet is to obtain a disposable/refillable debit/credit card. Some retailers (Walmart for instance) and some banks offer this service. You obtain one in a certain amount, or "fill in" the amount to cover the purchase, then use it online. If someone steals it, they have stolen an empty card. Simple as. Here are some guidelines:

Choose Credit Over Debit: You probably don’t often hear advice to use a credit card instead of a debit card or cash, but if you can do it responsibly, you absolutely should. Credit cards offer protection from identity theft that debit cards don’t. For example, with a credit card, your liability for fraudulent charges caps at $50 as long as you report the fraud within 30 or 60 days (depending on the company). However, if you’re using your debit card online and someone gains access to it, they can clean out your checking account before you even learn there’s a problem. It’s likely you’ll get part of that money back, but possible that it can take a while, and that you won’t get it all. So, use a credit card instead and pay the bill off monthly.

Spot on agree with you on the final 75% of your post and my apologies if I am misunderstanding you Spacemanvic, but:

I'm not sure why you suggest only using a credit card online is "not really the best advice" and then proceed to suggest people should use a disposable/refillable credit card instead?

If you use a credit card you are using someone else’s money to buy stuff and are covered against fraud, identity theft and get insurance on you purchase. It only becomes you problem if you pay the balance and do not notify the provider of any problems until too late.

If you use a pre-pay card [disposable/refillable in UK] you are using your money. You should still get the same protection [I say should these are still relatively new in the UK] but when the money goes out, whether correctly or fraudulently, that’s your money. The provider will be allot more motivated chasing his own money down I can assure you! I do see the benefit that you can limit your liability with this method, but you can do the same by having a lower card limit [I do see below]

Obviously NEVER use a debit card. This again is your money [probably all of it!] and you have even less protection. If that goes then forget about it, you will only get it back if the perpetrator is caught and even then only if they still have the money!

Your 4th paragraph is exactly as I posted, except I would add never use a debit card. Your savings/bank account + intawebz = fail.

As I say I spot on agree with most of your post mate, but I'm adamant that credit cards are the only safe [perhaps read safest] way to shop online.

I don't mind telling you that I personally have three credit all with different limits for different purposes. I only have credit for the benefits I have highlighted and always pay-off my cards every month to avoid any charges [smiles - just say no kids!]. I have on card with a limit of £300 that is used only for the online purchases. My other cards have higher limits for monthly house hold purchases [love those M&S points!] and one last on for big purchases [Holiday, TV, car etc] that I want insurance cover on [this never leaves the house unless required].

With all of this my point is if you have to do something with a financial risk attached, it is better to risk someone else’s money [credit] than your money [debit].

Sorry for the Wall-o-text, bloody auto append!

Well, while we're speaking the same, the devil is in the details.

Using a standard issue CC (credit card) or DC (debit card), the information on that card is directly connected to you. That means your banking info, address etc. So if that card is compromised, more than just the CC number is obtained. More so with a DC as the DC is directly tied to a savings/checking account, and the theft will likely drain the account before it is noticed.

Using a DDC (disposable debit card), you are given a certain amount of anonymity. The card is not directly tied to you, rather it is tied to the funds you have applied to it. Should that card get compromised, the stop loss is proportional to the amount that was applied.

Now some CC issuers also provide a virtual number(s) for use on internet transactions, BUT sometimes those numbers are allowed to be bled (should the set monetary amount be reached, additional funds are allowed to be drawn and that additional amount is added to your real CC account without iinput from the card holder). It becomes a real fight to keep the CC company from trying to hold you liable for the additional bled amount.

The idea behind using a DDC is that it serves as a better firewall between your personal information and the rest of the world than does a CC. While a CC may protect you from direct fraudulent charges, it cannot protect your personal information from being stolen. Also, once your information is "shopped" on the market, in most cases, you are NOT protected from additional frauds that are perpetrated via your purloined information. The process to clear your credit history at that point becomes fairly laborious and expensive.

So, the final decision is yours:

Use a CC to possibly reclaim lost funds BUT run the real risk that your personal information is now irrecoverably stolen.

Or

Use a DDC with the knowledge that should your transaction go sour, your only real loss is the amount on the card and nothing else.


It all depends on the degree of risk you are comfortable with. Within the security industry, anonymous cards are the preferred method of payment.

Caveat emptor really is the abiding rule when using your cards, be they CC or DC or DDC, more so when that transaction occurs on the net.

Spacemanvic wrote:Credit cards can be easily stolen, especially when used online. The estore or site can be hacked, or your PC for that matter, and your pertinent information is sold on the black market within hours. Happens to thousands every day. Especially with kids who are looking for warez, pics, music, movies etc on their PCs on a regular basis, as a drive-by infection can happen in a heartbeat (trust me, I used to do network security for a LARGE bank many moons ago). The internet is NOT your friend.

This risk is still grossly lessened the more well established the other side of the equation is. Places like Maelstrom and Warstore have the cash flow to invest in things like webstore security. Reputation is gold on the Internet, and I seriously doubt the big players could afford have serious security risks. Sure, the risk is not reduced to zero, but nothing in life is risk-free. My Paypal account isn't linked to a credit card so even if someone broke it, all they would get is the £5-£10 that's there at any one time. I reload it on occasion via a direct transfer to some bank in Sweden.

Locally, I do a lot of purchases by direct bank transfer, which is reasonably secure from outside intrusion, as the only bank data that changes hands is the seller's account number (theoretically, said email communication could be hacked and the message replaced with a bogus one, but the risk is infinitesimal considering the hackers would need a Finnish bank account, making them easily traceable). Sure, the opposite party could be bad, but that's an unexceptional risk, and reducible to insignificant by careful selection of trading partners.

But yes, in the end, a lot of the purchases I make are really the kind of wagers I mentioned, a fact which I accept. The alternative would be to live in fear every day, and if you do that, the scammers have already won.

No, not fear, vigilance.

No webstore security is theft proof. There are millions of dollars lost per year that attest to that. Also, it has absolutely no bearing on the vendor IF it is your PC that is infected. The best method is still by far the use of a DDC.

DDC is still quite a risk considering you pay for it up front. The best thing to do is make sure you read what coverage your bank or credit card company gives, along with what protection you have under the law where you live. I've been victim of a few scams on Ebay, and in both cases because I used my bank's credit card I was covered for the full amount, they went to bat for me, and I got my entire purchase refunded to my card.

Having your identity stolen is a whole other topic, and I don't think anyone will ever be fully immune to having that happen.

There will always be a risk involved, but the cost of the risk is lessened when it is only the face value lost and not the face value and intrinsic value lost. A DDC removes the risk of identity theft by providing anonymity to the card holder.

Spacemanvic wrote:No, not fear, vigilance.

You say potayto, I say potahto. Call it what you will, it'd still gnaw me hollow from the inside if I'd let it.

Scammers and hackers are opportunists. As long as there are millions people worse off than me, I'm unlikely to be devoured. I don't have to outrun the bear, just one of the six million other guys running from it at the same time. And to paraphrase my 2nd edition rulebook, if my life is ruined as a consequence, I'll face bankruptcy without regret as I embraced life without fear.