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LeperMessiah wrote:Not sure why everyone points at orks when talking about "themes" and "Powerbuilding." Maybe because most people play SM and they are as versatile (i.e., generic) as they come? Almost every army has a "theme," orks just get multiple themes. That makes them fun to play and a bitch to collect, as running upwards of eight legitimate tactics requires a crapload of models, even if they are 95% plastic at this point. It's a sad lot to bear...

I dropped $135 U.S on my Kanns the other day. Should be here very soon.My buddy owes me a bit for the 3k in Smurf Marines I gave him unpainted and a Codex. They were half painted as Crimson Fist and I just felt meh about them. Now that he has smashed my face on several ocassions vs my half finished Ork army I can see how they are the Noobish army. Oh well once I get the rest of my crap we shall see who has who lol. I find it fun to play as Orks though. Its the Vehicles that are a pain. You can get Boyz out the ying yang on the cheap.

ounumen:

If you tell your opponent that every ork on the table has a shoota, then you're fine. WYSIWYG causes problems when you have 10 nobs with different wargear and there's no clear way to define who has what gear. Put it into your list and announce it to your opponent at the start of every game. Write "Shoota boyz" into your troops choices, and tell your opponent at the beginning of the game that your troops choices are shoota boyz.

As for vehicles: If you're going to be running a kan-wall, remember that kans have a STR10 DCCW. Those will do just fine mincing up vehicles. Don't put rokkits onto your kans, use Grotzookas. Check my gallery - there's a few pictures of the Grotzookas I built using the grot from the biker sprues and the exhaust port from a battlewagon; there's a lot you can do to make them work. If you want rokkits for anti-tank, you want to be shooting them at rear armor, meaning you want some AoBR Deffkoptas, not killa-kans. Let that STR8 hit side and rear armor, don't waste killa-kan shots on rokkits hitting front armor.

actually kanz are like $24 a pop but still... i havent the skill to build dem from skratch

...Waaagh? wrote:actually kanz are like $24 a pop but still... skratch

Entre the confusion of different kind of money, what knid of dollar are you refering to? Cuse I'm looking at http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat1020018&rootCatGameStyle=, and it says 35$, canadian. Anywho, if your playing against mostly SM (and who isn't) then sometimes KMB are game winners. Consider it, then decide.

OMG ouman, i did the same thing, my kanz will be here in a few days, all my boys have sluggas and choppas.... dashofpepper, am i totally screwed?

Dash's post was just really refreshing.

Orks are a dang fun army to play, largely because of who they are: A great green mob of violent OCD hoolagans.

I can just see the whole mob getting obsessed with a single idea and whoopin and hollerin as they barrel towards their next fight. It isn't power gaming, it is thematic play at its best. Personally I think the Orks have the best made codex out of all the ones out there. It really rewards thematic play, and speaks of the orky soul

And it doesn't have be a boring, same thing list every time. They have all kinds of sneaky little things you can switch up in any one of their themes. A KFF here, a grot wall there, a backstabbing snikrot, or a red paint WAAGH giving you a sudden 27'' threat range. Pimp out those nobs one game and give them a painboy, the next game tie up that dangerous heavy support unit with a deff kopta (or dakka choppa as my wife calls hers). There are all kinds of fun things to do with any thematic list.

Love dem orks.

My favorite orky memory is my wifes warboss/nob squad sneaking through a field the first turn of a dawn of war (I failed my night vision roll) while quietly singing the orks song, since they were being sneaky. "orks, orks, orks, orks..." to that baseball theme. "doo doo doo dooot doo dooooo! WAAAAAAAGH!!!"

...Waaagh? wrote: OMG ouman, i did the same thing, my kanz will be here in a few days, all my boys have sluggas and choppas.... dashofpepper, am i totally screwed?

Well, see the answer I just posted for him. =p Tell your opponent all of your boyz are shootas (counts as). In fact, read the opening of the rulebook - GW invented "counts as" and supports it - WYSIWYG just requires that every model's wargear is clearly identified from other models so that there's no confusion about who's equipped with what - in the case of every model having the same though, easy pie.

I'm not going to even try to write as much as Dash so... BATTLEWAGON SPAM!!!

aromasin wrote:I'm not going to even try to write as much as Dash so... BATTLEWAGON SPAM!!!

I addressed that with mechanized orks.

Bumping this because so many people are asking the same questions in threads here.

thank you very much for bumping this up dash, i have added it to my favorites, and will do my best to follow the heart of the message.

What would you include in a burna list besides burnas at 1750? I enjoy reading this Dash, I'm building an orc army for my 8 year old, so I'm looking for something that he can push forward without a lot of finesse. Any other suggestions for a young'un. He's quite the painter and is itchin to keep painting, but I'm not sure what to buy next for him.

bendercz wrote:are there any other strategies?

do i have to really commit to one theme ? like all mech or nothing?
or can i go like

3kans, unit of lootaz, battlewagon, some warbikes?

I'm aware that this is an old post and all that, but there's pretty decent list that includes exactly what you wanted
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/02/critical-mass-wazdakkas-rollas.html

(not really word by word here since I think Armybuilder format is pretty hard to read)

Wazdakka
Big Mek /w KFF, powerklaw

14x Lootas
14x Lootas
3x Nobz, 1 Powerklaw
Battlewagon (Big Shoota x2; 'Ard Case; Boarding Plank; Deff Rolla; Grabbin' Klaw; Grot Rigger; Red Paint Job)

4x Warbikers
4x Warbikers
4x Warbikers

10 Gretchin + Runtherd

3x Warbuggies /w Rokkits
3x Warbuggies /w Rokkits
3x Warbuggies /w Rokkits

3x Kanz /w Big Shoota
3x Kanz /w Big Shoota
Battlewagon (Big Shoota x2; 'Ard Case; Boarding Plank; Deff Rolla; Grabbin' Klaw; Grot Rigger; Red Paint Job)
= 2000 pts

number9dream wrote:
I'm aware that this is an old post and all that, but there's pretty decent list that includes exactly what you wanted
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/02/critical-mass-wazdakkas-rollas.html

I think this is a quality reflection of Stelek as a list writer "As some of you may have noticed, Orks get to hit vehicles with Deff Rollas now. This makes them slightly less crappy." he says and then - Lo and behold - includes an ENTIRE TWO Battle Wagons in a 2000 point list - absolutely stunning. He then goes onto include 25 troop models... I do love the 9 TL-RL WarBuggies thou.


I'll post on topic when I have time ^_^

I believe that list is an update to his Warbiker list posted pre-deffrolla ruling, it's not meant to be a list centered around spamming BWs.

That would be this list from late 2008:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2008/12/build-request-ork-battlewagon-spam.html

Anyhow, in the comments he talks abit about how he doesn't think it's a good idea to sacrifice fire support just for some rollas.

Stelek may not be infallible, and he can certainly rub people the wrong way, but I think most people agree that he writes pretty good lists.

And in that list.
1) NO KFF.
2) I can only assume the WB are riding around in the wagons... with no Boarding Planks
3) Guess I'll assault out of them instead... Oh them same wagons have 'ard cases
4) It'd be really nice if he was able to post an accurate list too. 3x25+3x20+15+=150 for three PK nobs with waaagh banner... now for CB, EA, BP and S/S all round is still only 215 now I can only assume this is the load-oout he's given them - it's not the wargear that's listed....
5) He then goes on to run 36 troop models... 30 of which have a 6+... in units of ten...without PKs

He writes dross Ork lists from what I've seen so far.

Note that the Battlewagon wagon list is from a few months after the release of 5th, I wouldn't judge him based on that He even says it's crap, he just made it cause someone requested an 8 battlewagon list.

Btw, the reason you can't get the numbers to add up is that the 230 number is the battlewagon AND the nobz together It's 1 PK nob, 2 regular nobs + a 150 pt battlewagon (or whatever, something like that). But yes, I agree - no planks is bad, but as I said - the list is ooooooooold.

Take a look here to see some of his better lists, I agree that his Ork lists aren't his most impressive:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/03/best-of-links-40k.html

A couple of examples, though I don't feel like I'm good enough to really tell which are hist best lists or anything...
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/12/critical-mass-maximum-overdrive.html
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/12/critical-mass-ironclad.html
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/01/mafty-asked-in-this-thread-i-realize.html
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/11/re-envisioning-orks-part-iii.html

Oh and I don't know a thing about daemons but everyone seems impressed with this one lol:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/competitive-demons.html

Fwiw, he's - as far as I know, the only Tau player to qualify for the 'Ard Boyz finals =] I dunno why I'm spending so much time defending him, I just feel like the Battlewagon link I gave gives an unfair image of him.

Before we get started

number9dream wrote:
Fwiw, he's - as far as I know, the only Tau player to qualify for the 'Ard Boyz finals =]

This fact speaks for itself -doubling so when he's giving opinions on how 'other armies should be done'.
He wrote a couple of good artcles on soft scores a little while ago too but the rigor of his maths still makes me shudder sometimes
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/06/thunderwolf-calvary-first-tournamentuu.html < This is another list that appears very very hard and it's one he played with

But as I was saying. The nod have No PK none-nada-zip-zero - or he hasn't paid for BWs, so they are itemised due to the fact that it's almost impossible not to with a squad of 3 etc etc etc. It's such a bad list in fact I must conclude that he wrote it that way intentionally... but no nice person would do that

Also - this list was Feb 2009.
5th was July 12th 2008
If six months is not enough for a tounament level player to adapt to 5th.....

Nono, I meant the battlewagon list was at the beginning of 5th (december 2008, I think that qualifies more or less). I mean, I remember threads from around that time about how "Nob bikers have broken 40k", here on Dakka. Or "Horde orks are unbeatable" etc.

Apparently I'm seeing things because I was sure I saw PKs in there, but ah well - I must be blind :[

This fact speaks for itself -doubling so when he's giving opinions on how 'other armies should be done'.

I'm not sure I follow, are you saying that he plays Tau and doesn't know other armies or? I'm not entirely clear, as it seems you are familiar enough with him to know he's not only a tau player Anyway, I don't know how I ended up dragging this thread so far off-topic in the first place lol

Hello everyone!

From where I come from we have a rule, that KFF gives 5+ cover save to all vehicles (since there is no official GW FAQ on this).
I really would like to field mech ork army, like 4-5 BW, buggies and such, but without this 4+ cover save even BW seems kind of fragile. Yea, it's 14AV, but considering the amount of meltas/multimeltas (especially on AB) and lascannons those BW would be gone 2nd turn.

Is fielding green tide my only option for a competitive play?
Would like your opininon on that.

Cheers!

yakshi wrote:Hello everyone!

From where I come from we have a rule, that KFF gives 5+ cover save to all vehicles (since there is no official GW FAQ on this).
I really would like to field mech ork army, like 4-5 BW, buggies and such, but without this 4+ cover save even BW seems kind of fragile. Yea, it's 14AV, but considering the amount of meltas/multimeltas (especially on AB) and lascannons those BW would be gone 2nd turn.

Is fielding green tide my only option for a competitive play?
Would like your opininon on that.

Cheers!

Hello.

Where you come from, people do not play by the rules. The KFF grants vehicles "Obscure" status, which the rules explicitly define as a 4+ cover save. Just play by it. People will get used to it. If they argue with you during a game, then tell them "Alright, if you don't want to play by the rules, then I won't either" and start arbitrarily making up rules for their army. Their marines now only have 5+ armor saves. Your tanks are now fast, skimmer, and have AV14 all the way around on everything.

Seriously, get them in touch with the rulebook.

Lol @ Dash, /golfclap!

Dashofpepper wrote:
Hello.

Where you come from, people do not play by the rules. The KFF grants vehicles "Obscure" status, which the rules explicitly define as a 4+ cover save. Just play by it. People will get used to it. If they argue with you during a game, then tell them "Alright, if you don't want to play by the rules, then I won't either" and start arbitrarily making up rules for their army. Their marines now only have 5+ armor saves. Your tanks are now fast, skimmer, and have AV14 all the way around on everything.

Seriously, get them in touch with the rulebook.

Well, it's not that easy. First of all, all major tournaments in Poland are played like this. Second, I can see their point since rulebook states:

If a special rule or a piece of wargear confers to a vehicle the ability of being obscured even if in the open, this is a 4+ cover save, unless specified otherwise in the Codex

and codex states that KFF gives 5+ cover save.
Personally I don't agree with that, but like I said, in every tournament in Poland 5+ cover for vehicles rule takes place.

The question is: Does ork mech even have a place on the table with this rule, and what armies can I build to play copetitively?

Actually, no.

The codex does not specify that the obscure status granted to vehicles is a 5+ save.

It says "A kustom force field gives all units within 6" of the Mek a cover save of 5+.

Period. The period at the end ENDS the sentence. All units have a 5+ cover save. Vehicles, infantry, bikes, stompas, deffkoptas....everything.

Then it goes on to elaborate: Vehicles within 6" are treated as being obscured targets. Obscured targets have a 4+ cover save. GW's magazine White Dwarf uses a 4+ cover save for the KFF. Vehicles have BOTH a 5+ cover save and a 4+ cover save. You may choose which to take at will.

If vehicles only had a 5+ cover save, it would have stopped at the first sentence with all units having a 5+ save. The other codexes do it. But instead, it went on to specifically elaborate that vehicles get a 4+ save: By being obscured.

-------------------------
yakshi: I'm being absolutely serious. If the people around you are not going to use GW rules, make a fuss. There's no excuse for people to cheat, or intentionally try gimping your army, or treating you unfairly.

Dashofpepper wrote:yakshi: I'm being absolutely serious. If the people around you are not going to use GW rules, make a fuss. There's no excuse for people to cheat, or intentionally try gimping your army, or treating you unfairly.

I did, I argued with 'Judge League' (which clarifies the rules for tournaments in Poland) for over a month. Didn't help then, it won't help now :(

Like I said, would appreciate some feedback on army composition (not green tide) including 5+ cover save for vehicles

Can you throw us their e-mail?

Unfotunately, no.
First of all, I don't know their e-mails They are smart enough to communicate with others only through forum. I can give you a link, but it's all in Polish and you'd have to register.

Second, there are 21 people in this 'judge league'. And what are you going to do? Spam them that some guy called 'yakshi' told you that in Poland there is a stupid rule? Then I'm gonna get banned from tournaments and it won't help a bit

Believe you me, I tried to discuss this more than I should, and nothing will change their mind.

Ask them politely how they interperate 'treated as obscured' as 'granted obscured status with a 5+ cover save' As it would be wonderful if they could convince the 'panel' from *insert country of choice here as poland is the only place I've ever heard of this acutally flying like a pig... And maybe ask them if they want to come to mine for some roast pumpkin - it's really really good

ChrisCP wrote:Ask them politely how they interperate 'treated as obscured' as 'granted obscured status with a 5+ cover save'

Well, their argument is that previous statement says it gives 5+ cover save. It has been a little offtopic for last few posts, so maybe let's get back to my original question

ChrisCP wrote:And maybe ask them if they want to come to mine for some roast pumpkin - it's really really good

haha, will do that

Well then, in answer to your question directly:

Both the Kan-Wall and mechanized orks are getting hurt here by this ruling.

A green tide *is* competitive, and your choices are getting narrowed down. How many deffkoptas do you have? If you want to be snarky, you could do 3 units of Deffkoptas, 3 units of Kommandos and a few troop choices. the KFF is about getting to the enemy unscathed - the other way to get to the enemy unscathed is outflanking / ambushing / 24" scout + Turn1 assault or outflanking deffkoptas.


Oh....and could you translate this to Polish and post it for me on their forums? I'll take a stab, but my polish sucks.

Dear judges:

The entire world has a unified agreement on the ork kustom force field. Every tournament FAQ, every grand tournament held in the civilized world, every forum and discussion site on the internet. Why do you insist on rebelling against everyone else?

----------------------------------------------

Drodzy sędziów:

Cały świat ma porozumienia w sprawie jednolitego racy <Kustom?> dziedzinie życie. FAQ każdy turniej, każdy wielki turniej odbędzie się w cywilizowanym świecie, co forum i strony dyskusji w Internecie. Dlaczego upierasz się na bunt przeciwko wszystkim innym ?