Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

wuestenfux wrote:

Scouts (5)
Powerfist

Looks pointless to me, since you have four full scoring units.
I'd consider another Speeder or Predator.

they are in a speeder...

No... it's just that most go to tourneys here.
Where things 'TRY' and stay objective.

Common sense is subjective.
Interpretation to RAW is subjective, that's why we stick to just the letter of the law.

Now... RAI, who knows.

But I think there is a reason they made to different kinds of homers... so i think it was meant to be different...one for termies, one for eveything.

Don't have to go all American Legal system bashing...

Humans are subjective by definition this is a strength not a weakness. Yes there are 2 different types and there are obvious reasons fo rthis 1 type for teleporting and another for everything else (i.e. flying in, drop poding in etc).

Like the discussion on another thread I was having that Vehicles can only take cover saves if they are obscured and if something grants a cover save but doesn't specifically use the word obscured then Vehicles can only use that cover save aginst wounds caused...(i.e. they can't use them).

It is not a stretch for common sense to rule what the laws mean rather than what the letter actually states (or in the case omits to state).

It wasn't really having a go at the American Legal system just illustrating a different point of veiw to how laws or rules should be applied, the "stupid" was a bit tongue in cheek. In England the reason behind the law is more important than the letter of the law. It is more subjective but removes technicalities and contradictions. Both systems have their strengths and weaknesses (the British system is open to far more inconsistency).

GW rules are written in England and are clearly designed to be used with this in mind (hence the most important rule)...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Scouts (5)
Powerfist

Looks pointless to me, since you have four full scoring units.
I'd consider another Speeder or Predator.

Not pointless they are for the Land Speeder Storm and allow a first turn charge...

General_Chaos wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Scouts (5)
Powerfist

Looks pointless to me, since you have four full scoring units.
I'd consider another Speeder or Predator.

they are in a speeder...

Still, this is a suicide mission and eventually cost you two kill points.

FlingitNow wrote:

I don't rate GOI either, but its obivously teleporting via deepstrike like Necron veil of darkness - it just needs a bit of common sense. The codex actually gives examples of units which cannot use it, which is units which are literally dropping out the sky. The Librarian isn't. The Librarian is moving from one part of the board to another, teleporting, using deep strike, like terminators do

RaW and commonsense are not compatible...

Yes I'd have taken it the way you have but common sense goes out the window when it comes to interpreting the rules. It is about the letter of the law on here. Probably because it is an American websight and that is how their stupid legal system works rather the law being the sense and meaning behind the law it is the direct words written...

Kind of off on a tangent there huh about american legal system huh?

Still, this is a suicide mission and eventually cost you two kill points.

Depends how they are used you don't HAVE to assault first turn you can out flank them with a 21" assault range from a board edge could be very useful. They could also gain you 2 KPs too and the opposition will have to fire at them with at least 2 different units to wipe them out probably more.

He has 2 Storms so he could use this tactic as an alphastrike.

I use them in my army and they are almost always brilliant. Far more reliable than say Marneas Calgar (who's either brilliant or dump) and not much mor ethan half the points...

wuestenfux wrote:

General_Chaos wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:

Scouts (5)
Powerfist

Looks pointless to me, since you have four full scoring units.
I'd consider another Speeder or Predator.

they are in a speeder...

Still, this is a suicide mission and eventually cost you two kill points.

I have to agree with Wustenfux here. I don't think the scouts in the speeder are that good for a suicide unit as you're hoping to get first turn, if you don't then plan out the window. Also to do the job you only have ONE melta bomb - you might do unlucky with the 2D6 rolls and then next turn, bam! Your scouts and speeder are dead.

I would say the 'option' of having a first turn charge.
I'm not sure why so many like that, but it generally doesn't concern me.

I have to agree with Wustenfux here. I don't think the scouts in the speeder are that good for a suicide unit as you're hoping to get first turn, if you don't then plan out the window. Also to do the job you only have ONE melta bomb - you might do unlucky with the 2D6 rolls and then next turn, bam! Your scouts and speeder are dead.

And 4 krak grenades, you don't always have to send them at a Landraider...

Besides alphastrike isn't the only use for them, a 21" charge and 24" move makes them a pretty good assault unit alround. Out flank is also a great option. You have to use with care but I always find them very effective their manouvreablity mean as long as you select your target correct you should always be onto a winner (unless the dices gods decide you epic fail, which can happen to any unit).

Sanctjud wrote:I would say the 'option' of having a first turn charge.
I'm not sure why so many like that, but it generally doesn't concern me.

A first turn charge with 5 Scouts is not really scary.
Its only worth it if you can disrupt enemy plans.
But this is hardly thinkable.

A first turn charge with 5 Scouts is not really scary.

That depends greatly on what mary you have. They can easily wipe out 30 guardsmen for instance. Take on any Tau unit. Take on shooty 'Nid Warriors and be favourite, smaller units of boyz (or 2 squads together can wipe out 30 Boyz pretty easily), smaller units of Guants (or a Zoanthrope breaking up synapse can be great for a suicide unit). Take out a squad of devastators, DE warriors, Eldar guardians, DAs and even have a shot against a small unit of Banshees.

Target selection is key, use the firsturn charge only if it is viable in the situation you are in and the army you are up against. Out flanking if you know you go 2nd is the next best option or if there are no good targets to first turn assault simply use the 24" scout move to get them positioned safely so you can use them as a counter assault unit.

I don't think point for point their is a better assault unit in the SM codex than scouts.

FlingitNow wrote:

I have to agree with Wustenfux here. I don't think the scouts in the speeder are that good for a suicide unit as you're hoping to get first turn, if you don't then plan out the window. Also to do the job you only have ONE melta bomb - you might do unlucky with the 2D6 rolls and then next turn, bam! Your scouts and speeder are dead.

And 4 krak grenades, you don't always have to send them at a Landraider...

Besides alphastrike isn't the only use for them, a 21" charge and 24" move makes them a pretty good assault unit alround. Out flank is also a great option. You have to use with care but I always find them very effective their manouvreablity mean as long as you select your target correct you should always be onto a winner (unless the dices gods decide you epic fail, which can happen to any unit).

Well why say in your original tactic send them at a land raider, but now say don't always. Kind of odd comment.

You still need 4+ with kraks on most vehicles, still not brilliant with 4 other models.

Can you explain how you get a 21" charge from a storm. If you minus off 2" for disembark, 6" assault that leaves 13", which would class as moved at flat out as its over 12". Can you clarifiy? . A 24" move it good, but the speeder cannot shoot, but does get a 4+ cover save though.

Outflank isn't a very good tactic. Your hoping the right dice roll will pop up so you can appear on the correct side of the table. If you appeared on the wrong side you'd have to turbo boost over.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:or 2 squads together can wipe out 30 Boyz pretty easily.

I don't see how two squads of 5 scouts can wip out 30 boyz easily. The boyz will get a massive 90 attacks back (sluggas and choppas) and are fearless. Two units of 5 scouts cannot wipe out 30 boyz pretty easily

Well why say in your original tactic send them at a land raider, but now say don't always. Kind of odd comment.

You still need 4+ with kraks on most vehicles, still not brilliant with 4 other models.

Can you explain how you get a 21" charge from a storm. If you minus off 2" for disembark, 6" assault that leaves 13", which would class as moved at flat out as its over 12". Can you clarifiy? . A 24" move it good, but the speeder cannot shoot, but does get a 4+ cover save though.

Outflank isn't a very good tactic. Your hoping the right dice roll will pop up so you can appear on the correct side of the table. If you appeared on the wrong side you'd have to turbo boost over.

Yeah the LR comment was assuming you'd send 2 squads at it for 2 meltabombs.

Against other vehicles a 5+ to penetrate with 4 attacks is actually pretty good should should add another penetration and a glance into the fray meaning you have a very good chance of at taking out the tank or at least stopping it from moving and shooting next turn if you roll like... well me :(

21" charge is 12" move 3" disembark as the back of your base needs to be within 2" and the base is 1" wide and then the 6" assault.

Depends on the table outflank can be very effective 2 out of 3 times they'll come on the side you want and the other time with a 21" range they should have a viable target more often than not particularly if you have 2 units.

2 squads can wipe out 30 boyz fairly easily. They'll have nothing like 90 attacks back. A heavy flamer should cover 9-10 models times that by 2 and you have 12+ Orks dead before you even start shooting your pistols.

10 shots say 5 hits another 2.5 Orks dead so they should be down to about 15 by the time the 10 scouts actually assault them. 24 normal attacks, 12 hits, 5 dead Orks. 10 PW attacks 3 more dead Orks. Leaving 7 to attack back assume Nob with claw. So 18 normal attacks 12 hits, 4 wounds 2 dead scouts. Claw 1.5 hits 1.25 more dead scouts, lets say he gets lucky 2 dead scouts.

There are 7 Orks left meaning LD7. Scouts have caused 8 wounds Orks have caused 4 wounds that means Ld1, they run and roll off I have 2 dice take the highest and add 2 he has 1 dice... all Orks dead, Consolidate away from each other so he has to counter charge with 2 different units...

I don't see how two squads of 5 scouts can wip out 30 boyz easily. The boyz will get a massive 90 attacks back (sluggas and choppas) and are fearless. Two units of 5 scouts cannot wipe out 30 boyz pretty easily

Yeah.

I remember two recent games with my DA army.
The 6 men RW Bikers outflanked and took on 10 Fire Warriors resp. 5 Pathfinders.
It was horrible to see that they needed 3 rounds to kill the Pathfinders and they were wiped out by the Fire Warriors.
I better keep this information secret.

I think you'd probably get over half being 4+ and possible one penetrate if using kraks.

The disembark would be 2" as you measure from hull. Pretty sure it says in the codex ignore all skimmer bases, pretend they're not there.

They won't wipe out 30 boyz. The orks are fearless until they get down to 10 of them. Two squads won't kill 30 orks and will get pounded back. The orks would get 90 attacks as its 3 per boyz multipled by 30, however, not all 30 will be in base to base contact. Either way, the scouts won't do enough damage with heavy flamers and bolt pistols as workings from your other threat and in close combat the orks will beat them. If not, the orks are fearless and will not fall back, and the scouts will not kill 20 orks in shooting and in assault. A heavy flamer won't cover 9-10 models as you space them them out 2" apart

I think you've been a bit over generous in your guessimations for scouts - I think you have a scout fetish lol.

The idea of first turn charges is to hit vehicles automatically.
But it's not very good option if people see that coming in open list environments.

As I was alluding, I don't play anything that really cares about their abilities.
__
My eldar army starts in reserves, so when ever the scouts roll in, they are hitting on 6's vs. vehicles.
__
My Chaos.. they may kill the rhinos, but I don't care too much, I always assume the go down turn 1.
At which point I have 4 kill points in front of me.

Or

2 fast scoring units I can get out of the way.
___
My biker army, with TH/SS screen, prob. not gonna charge that.
And I generally use beefy biker squads, so charging that means a powerfist slap fight...

As to wiping out 30 orks...I would say situational. It is a possibility....
But.

10 Scouts, 2 LSS, lets say fist sarg for versitility is pushing past 300 points.
30 Boyz with claw is just past 200.

Hmm.Meh?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If shooting is factored, they could take stuff away from that side to draw in scouts closer to them or even rob them of a charge, or additional shooting from other elements.

Also, the power weapon attacks are wrong, the sgt gets 2 attack as standard +1 for charging and +1 for pistol and power weapon, so a total of 8 attacks for the sgts.

Well in terms of hitting your eldar on 6s that really depends on how far you moved the previous turns. AS I've stated if some denys the alphastrike you use the 24" scout move to reposition and you still have a highly mobile assault force. Do you take Prisms in your Eldar?

Against Chaos granted there aren't really any good targets for them I'd probably just use them to tie something up like obliterators for instance. But they could still assault your guys in the Rhinos because they aren't the only thing on my list so I'd krak the transports with something else and then flame and assault the contents. Again I win by just 1 and I've a decent chance of sweeping advancing you. If you stay in combat all the better.

Bikers and TH/SS no I'd probably not bother charging that except to hold it up to get other things in position.

Yeah the 30 Orks thing is situational as everything in 40k is really. But spreadin out 30 boys is generally not possible on most tables and again if they have 2-3 such units it will be impossible to spread them all out. Most Ork players would not expect you to want to charge them in turn one nor that you actually have a chance of wiping out a squad. That means he then has to spend at 2 units wipeing out the scouts and another 2 dealing with the storms which will slow him up tremendouslyand give me far more chance to wipe him out. Again I point out you don't have to do this in turn one.

They are very useful in lots of situations and due to their manoureability you should be able to ensure you choose how and when they engage the enemy.

saying they could take stuff away from the edge is good theory hammer but not good warhammer. That is then 42" of table you are avoiding just to shoot at my unit before it assaults you - i.e. over half the table width gone, leaving you just a 30" corridor down the middle. I'd absolutely love you to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moving 12" = 6's.
Eldar vehicles are fast, so can still shoot a main weapon and still go 12.
Anything moving less and you are doing it wrong.
Yes I take prism, they are happy to get one shot in the game, and they will get it.

You can't sweeping advance the majority of troop options in the CSM army list.
I use plague marines... so single hvy flamer templates and sweeping are some of the things I'm not too worried about.

Well blah blah blah blah.

Anyway...

The Scout Speeders, Speeders, Sternguard are all optional Alpha Strike. I don't have to throw ll my eggs in one basket if I don't want to.

Outflanking is awesome. Overwhelming an IG CCS, or a Heavy Wepaons Team, or Tau, all that stuff, with an outflanking speeder with heavy flamer is just awesome!!
I've seen people win games with outflanking kroot, and I've seen people ruin Leman Russ Squadrons with outflanking Scouts.

I can certainly decide to keep more things in reserve, deploy the drop pod squads in a defensive manner if required, and sit back if the alpha strike is too risky...

/shrug. It's all about the fist and not the squad.
The fist is doing the killing, the scouts can't count on hitting anything at range and are hit more in combat.

The storm delivers a hvy flamer... what do you expect will come of it? Heh. but it's still fragile for a unit combo that must commit to suicide range.

Somewhat contradictory of a unit IMO.

As to scoring, you only have to be there turn 5+.
The other times you are either on the board hiding or coming in who knows when....and when you do you hide some more, highly dependent on gamning group terrain.

You can't sweeping advance the majority of troop options in the CSM army list.

Why not? They don't have ATSKNF.

The Scout Speeders, Speeders, Sternguard are all optional Alpha Strike. I don't have to throw ll my eggs in one basket if I don't want to.

Outflanking is awesome. Overwhelming an IG CCS, or a Heavy Wepaons Team, or Tau, all that stuff, with an outflanking speeder with heavy flamer is just awesome!!
I've seen people win games with outflanking kroot, and I've seen people ruin Leman Russ Squadrons with outflanking Scouts.

I can certainly decide to keep more things in reserve, deploy the drop pod squads in a defensive manner if required, and sit back if the alpha strike is too risky...

Exactly the alphastrike is an option that is situational. The great thing with the scouts is you can set up for Alpha strike and still redeploy if needs be due to the 24" scout move and then you force him to come on peice meal if he's not deployed or you have bunched him up if he's castled. eitherway you are forcing him to react to your plan and not the other way round...

Okay so lets be a little more specific. I do not have to charge in wildly with Scouts in a Landspeeder Storm. I do not have to assault a tank with meltabombs, and I do not have to heavy flamer a mob of orks.

The equipment and the unit are there because it gives you choices. I could alpha strike, I could wait in reserve and try to grab an empty objective, I could outflank and try to take out a heavy weapons team...

Since there are so many dice rolls, the list should remain flexible right?

Of course the alpha strike with Pedro is pretty evil...

Speeders Heavy Flamer Stuff!!
Sternguard drop and shred everything with shooting!!
Scouts then assault what was shot at, getting +1 attack from Pedro, and the charge bonus, and they got the fist in there.

If any scouts survive, then the Sternguard are going to be assaulting something already locked in combat. If the scouts don't survive the Sternguard will be assaulting something already very weak, or alone....except there is a lot of dice rolling.

@FlingitNow:

You see I said 'a majority' of the troops can not be swept.

Plague Marines:Fearless.
Khorne Bezerkers:Fearless.
Noise Marines:Fearless.
Dust Buckets:Fearless.
Lesser Daemons:Fearless.
Enhanced CSM:Fearless.

The only thing that is not fearless are regular Joe Chaos Space Marines, who are in the minority in terms of sweepable troop choices in the CSM Army List.
_________________

Certainly the Storm gives you options, but the balancer to what it can do is the durability of the units involved. I guess it's just personal taste...I'm not one for...lets call them 'scalpel' units.

Sanctjud



Cheers not a CSM player not fully up to speed on all their rules. I wouldn't really be charging the scouts at anything other than Dustbuckets or Joe CSM in reality. But as I said CSM is the army most bereft of viable targets but I could still hold them in reserve for late game objective grabbing or for counter charging (or antitank duty).

rdlb

You seemed to have basically guessed my list...