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A bit off topic but related to the geneseed stuff, if Mariens lose the memories of thier life before the chapter how come in dow2 one of the sargents, the assult one, mentions his home world like he can rember it? I know the blood ravens have prefect recall but I would imagine they lose most of thier memories before that kicks in.

Orkfantic wrote:A bit off topic but related to the geneseed stuff, if Mariens lose the memories of thier life before the chapter how come in dow2 one of the sargents, the assult one, mentions his home world like he can rember it? I know the blood ravens have prefect recall but I would imagine they lose most of thier memories before that kicks in.

What? Where did you hear that? I have never heard anything like this.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:As for the whole 'Test Tube' babies thing, it would be interesting to know how the Emperor recruited so many SM since he didn't have access to Feral world recruits.

That's a great avatar.



needs a santa hat though.

Thanks. I don't know about you, but Chrissy is sort of finished over here...

Gwar! wrote:

Orkfantic wrote:A bit off topic but related to the geneseed stuff, if Mariens lose the memories of thier life before the chapter how come in dow2 one of the sargents, the assult one, mentions his home world like he can rember it? I know the blood ravens have prefect recall but I would imagine they lose most of thier memories before that kicks in.

What? Where did you hear that? I have never heard anything like this.

I don't understand what he's talking about either. Where did you hear that marines lose thier 'past-life' memories as a result of the operation? All that is mentioned really is that they are very young. (12-17) so they're memories would not be prevalent, but they would be there. On the other hand, I suppose the truama could cuase quite a bit of memory loss to some recruits.

I know that grey knights have their memories erased, but the fact that they made the effort to point that out probably confirms that its not common for regular space marine chapters to do so.

Where does it say GK have thier memories erased?

Why would they mind wipe the GK's arn't they trained and contioned to be as anti-chaos as you can get?

The process supposedly isn't done with every SM chapter, or even with all of their units, but the point is that once they have proven themselves, they are supposed to forget all else but the chapter and their duties to it. Not sure if the grey knights do that, but i remember reading that somewhere too.

Space Marines quite often lose all recall of their childhood, often this is encouraged and part of the indoctrination process of the Chapter. For example:

"Forget your past life. From this day on you are simply a Dark Angel - nothing else is of consequence. The Chapter is all that matters."

Commander Azrael addressing new recruits to the Scout Comany.

Over the course of a lifetime than can last many centuries Marines do forget the few memories they had from when they were little children, others lose these memories as they are being turned into Space Marines and others are encouraged and made to lose their memories. Of course not all Chapters do this and not all Marines will forget.

Yeah, Dark Angels are kind of a bad example.

How so?

1) That qoute does not mention mind-scrubbing of any sort. (Which I personally beleive is reserved only for criminals, witnesses and servitors) Azrael seemed to be telling the initiates to leave behind thier past life, as it had no bearing on their lives as a DE. He doesn't say that he's going to erase their entire childhood memories.

2) Dark Angels wear dresses.

Emperors Faithful wrote:1) That qoute does not mention mind-scrubbing of any sort. (Which I personally beleive is reserved only for criminals, witnesses and servitors) Azrael seemed to be telling the initiates to leave behind thier past life, as it had no bearing on their lives as a DE. He doesn't say that he's going to erase their entire childhood memories.

2) Dark Angels wear dresses.

Both excellent points.

space marines still have ribs. they're fused into their organs to protect them. it's in Codex: SM

I never personally mentioned Mind-Scrubbing, a process used on marines only when they have fought the forces of Chaos.

Mind-Scrubbing isn't usually used on ordinary humans who are simply executed in any situation where Mind-Scrubbing might be considered necessary. Heretics can be sentenced to Arco-Flagellation and Servitors may not have ever been normal humans to begin with, but vat grown. In any case, servitors are usually mindless because the Mechanicus cut out parts of their brains.

Well, because of Armageddon, we all know the Grey Knights (at least) have mind-scrubbing capabilities. Whether or not they use it on their initiates is up for debate. Whether or not they use it on normal people is a definite.

There must be some side-effects to mind-scrubbing. Otherwise, they would do that instead of killing any witnesses. (And is also another reason they wouldn't do it to thier own initiates)

Emperors Faithful wrote:There must be some side-effects to mind-scrubbing. Otherwise, they would do that instead of killing any witnesses.

Why? Killing is a lot simpler and cheaper.

Emperors Faithful wrote:There must be some side-effects to mind-scrubbing. Otherwise, they would do that instead of killing any witnesses. (And is also another reason they wouldn't do it to thier own initiates)

Mind-Scrubbing is reserved for those, like the Astartes, who are too valuable to kill but not so valuable they can be left with their memories. It would appear that in more recent background certain individuals, like Logan Grimnar, are considered 'safe' and not automatically Mind-Scrubbed, or perhaps he was just too well known; less famous Chapters have been slaughtered by the Inquisition though so even the Astartes are not totally indispensable. The possibility of a Guardsman blabbing about Chaos and daemons or even worse, being physcially touched by the Ruinous Powers is too much of a risk to take and execution is the preferred solution. Any Guard units requisitoned by an Inquisitor Ordinary of the Ordo Malleus have already been sentenced to death; they don't know that until far too late of course.

The effect of Mind-Scrubbing reduces the individual to a child-like state and they must spend a period of time (never defined in the background) being retaught everything. I've used Mind-Scrubbing as part of the background to my own Chapter where Librarians use their psychic powers to help their brothers recover themselves as well as all the usual conditioning techniques to give them back the knowledge of how to think and act like an adult and a Marine. In addition to this my own twist was to use the Marine's ability to take memories from food and so a Mind-Scrubbed Marine was fed portions of the brain of one of his deceased brothers so that once his mind was fully restored he would believe himself to be that Marine and so cover up the exposure to Chaos completely.

The Grey Knights are not routinely Mind-Scrubbed and really they are the only group the Ordo Malleus trust to keep their memories of Chaos secret.

Gogsnik wrote:Any Guard units requisitoned by an Inquisitor Ordinary of the Ordo Malleus have already been sentenced to death; they don't know that until far too late of course.

Not necessarily true. Only if they have been in open combat with powerful deamon forces for a protracted period of time, and are at risk of corruption. In small-scale skirmishes where they deal only with the minion cultists or a few summoned deamons it's probably not routine for execution. Then again, each inquisitor is different so YMMV.

Not to mention the Space Wolves are a 1st Founding Legion and Pre-date not only the Inquisition but the Imperium itself.

I don't think that's the reason. (Apart from them being the size of a Legion)

Emperors Faithful wrote:I don't think that's the reason. (Apart from them being the size of a Legion)

I beg to differ good sir

Reading that thread made my head hurt.

I just have a general question: I've been reading some of the novels and wonder, is there 'official' fluff for all this stuff because I've been reading some things that seem to conflict with codex fluff and the like.

Like what?

I just finished one of the tyranid horde novels with the black templars and there were a few things that just didn't work out with tyranid organization and some of the wargear and some of the vehicle descriptions. It was so incredibly redundant and unimaginative that I've forgotten the title and most of the 'action' sequences.

chromedog wrote: an ability to consume memories (possibly using messenger RNA) and other things through their various implants (19 in all, from memory).

they eat the brains to gain the memories according to the 'EYE OF TERROR' book thew space marine eats the brain of he's foe(a trator space marine from his own chapter) to find out the truth of what has happened

sorry about the vagueness i don't wanna break any copy right laws lol

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Gogsnik wrote:Any Guard units requisitoned by an Inquisitor Ordinary of the Ordo Malleus have already been sentenced to death; they don't know that until far too late of course.

Not necessarily true. Only if they have been in open combat with powerful deamon forces for a protracted period of time, and are at risk of corruption. In small-scale skirmishes where they deal only with the minion cultists or a few summoned deamons it's probably not routine for execution. Then again, each inquisitor is different so YMMV.

Original background from the source books begs to differ. Namby-pamby modern background interpreted badly and ignored so that BL authors can keep their characters alive (I'm looking at you Abnett!) means some of them run around with little more than harsh looks and a few questions to worry about.

Being on a world attacked by Chaos minions but not necessarily having any contact with those minions meant sterilisation and off to the gulag to be forgotten. Fighting Chaotic minions meant death. Fighting daemons meant torture, questioning followed by some more torture and then burning. Then burn the ashes for good measure.

It used to be a lot more clear cut, they've mucked it all up now-a-days but that's what happens when authors are allowed to run amok and every army has to be able to fight every other army in case the kiddies cry.

croggy wrote:they eat the brains to gain the memories according to the 'EYE OF TERROR' book thew space marine eats the brain of he's foe(a trator space marine from his own chapter) to find out the truth of what has happened

That'd be the Dark Angel that eats his old Captain's brains after he lies to him about everything. Good book that one, one of my favourites.

@Gogsnik: I'd like to see where you're pulling all this 'offical' fluff. As far as I know neither Leximechanum nor Dan Abnett hold sway of 'official' fluff. The only fluff that you can't take solidly now is from the rulebooks first, and the codexes second.

Space Marines are not Immortal just very long lived. the HH books do not state that space marines live forever but say that they dont actually know themselfs if they can because nobody has lived long enough to find out. and that their technologys never have the chance to "measure" exacty how there aging because they die in battle.

Also i do belive there is fluff either from "cities of death" or around the time of cities of death where a Commander Dante from the Blood Angels is not the oldest blood angel because there is a sargent who was sargent when dante was a scout who is still alive. (cant remembe exact source but i read this a few weeks ago maby on lexi)

also some vetran gamers (rouge trader) from my local club have told me about two Space Marines way back in the day who were said to have died of old age. one a blood angel and another an imperial fist. i think this comes from white dwarf or just Rouge Trader material.

If they dont age why do alot of the chapter masters look old (logan Grimnar for example), you cant make an old man a space marine shown in "Fallen Angels" and in the HH books. they can only give them some implants and they still age (some character from fallen angels who rides off on a horse to die by himself)