Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

In my reading of it, its obvious to me that they aren't 1 use only. RAI supports my reading of it, so I can use them more than once.

(See how ridiculous a RAI argument is?)

Oh your just being dificult in the face of reason. do it your way then, it matter not to me how somneone in the US misinterprits the ruels. here we use 1 use only. what you do is your business.

Thats why there is RAI and RAW and FAQs, as well as common sense. Arguing a RAW vs RAI is like beating your head against a wall - RAW folks just keep saying "Well it doesn't say that so I can do it". There are so many RAI vs RAW arguments in the book it boggles your mind, but usually people understand the difference and aren't complete asses about it. Perfect example - High Elves have the Sword of Hoerth or something which states "All hits automatically wound" or something like that. RAW vs RAI - well it doesn't specifically state that the model carrying the sword only benefits from it, so every model in my army then is going to wound on a successful hit. People who want to play like that - don't be suprised when your opponent packs up and leaves you hanging there alone.

When a rules issue like this comes up its best to play it in the least advantageous way. This way when an Errata comes out (and based on what I have read there will be one) it will most likely list them as one use only (as this is what Army Books in other languages have it listed as) so you would just be shooting yourself in the foot if you don't play it as such.

The book does not say "One use only." It used to, and I think it was intended to this time. However, until GW corrects this via an errata, I would not argue if my opponent wants to use his warpstone tokens more than once. I simply won't play his Skaven army again until the error is corrected.

I think that the RAI and the RAW are the same. Here me out:

RAI- yes, "consuming" something means its gone. But how many warpstone tokens does the character have? 15 points buys him multiple tokens. Enough for six turns worth of extra power dice? Maybe.

RAW- as someone has already pointed out, a Powerstone is 5 more points (or ten less, for two tokens), gives you two dice, and doesn't directly result in wounds, and so is better in basically every situation. Why take warpstone tokens, then? Because they're riskier, but are reusable...or the Workshop boys made yet another item that no one will use.

So, in conclusion: this item, when compared to a Power Stone, is balanced if it is reusable. The rules are vague and the fluff misleading...or it sucks. As for Grey Seer Thanquol...he would be pretty insane, but remember that his re-roll wounds him on a 1 or a 2...but that's still insane. He's a special character, I guess. Also, he's not that much better than a normal Grey Seer, so maybe this makes up for it (he did use to have 13 tokens, right?).

CptZach wrote:In my reading of it, its obvious to me that they aren't 1 use only. RAI supports my reading of it, so I can use them more than once.

(See how ridiculous a RAI argument is?)

Have fun playing by yourself then. I will go find another opponent if you try this with me.

if they're one use only they say one use only.
now if this is intent or a typo or whatever you want to call it is unknown but unless they say one use only they are not.

and guys... are you seriously telling me that someone using a warpstone token more than once, which by raw is legal, would make you want to quit playing them? jesus...

The issue isn't RAW, it's sportsmanship. Warpstone tokens have ALWAYS been one use only. That's why they are cheap. They are even cheaper than powerstones... which are one use only. Sure, they have a nasty side effect. That's why they are cheaper than powerstones for the same result.

If you want to cheese it be my guest. Do so at another table please.

First off, things change between editions of the rules. just because something was one way last edition (And the edition before that) does not mean that it will always be that way in the future or is in the current edition.

Second, Powerstones give 2 dice, warpstone tokens give 1. Powerstones are more efficient with less risk. Unless warpstone tokens are not one use only, there is no reason to take them when you can get powerstones.

After reading through the rules you have to look at it one of two ways.

First for those that do believe that this is a one use only item there is no restriction on how many times it can be used per turn. With that being said a Grey Seer with 2 stones can add 2 dice to each spell roll that he makes each turn.

For those that believe that it is a one use only this means that it is a one and done item for 15 points when compared to a power stone at 25.

The latter makes more sense that the first way of looking at it. Also the term consumed is used in the rules which does mean that after it is used it is no more.

power stone is 20 now Neggy, but but thats not what were discussing.
the question really is a simple one and one that wont have a satisfiyable answer till the FAQ comes out, (if the slope fore headed sons of a begals left toe ever get around to it, that is)
yes you can read the rules either way, i agree it does not specifically say: 1 use only, so you could and will argue that its reuseable.
for the other camp it states consumed, and for them its 1 use only.
Im saying that we here in lower austria use it as 1 use only. because the english version is the only one that has ommited one 1 use only. all the other (well most, cant read japenesse) books state 1 use only. for the upcoming tournament (70 plus people) it will be one use only, we have some pretty good rules gurus and they all agree.
this of couse means nothing to you in the reuse group. so let me put it plain.
those in the reuse group whom attempt to use the rules in this way should not be surprised that you will have fewer opponents because alot of people will just pack up on you if your trying to skunk a rule to your advantage like that. period. i certainly wont play with you. use common sense and stop trying to force the rules to win for you.

If these weren't reusable, why would you ever buy them?

Ummm they're cheaper than power stones . . . . and grey seers come with D3 of them to start with. Lets think of this in game balance terms if they were reusable - Grey Seers are Lvl 4 wizards that start with D3 of them. Then they decide to buy 2 or 3. If they are reusable, then they could have 4 casting dice from themselves, 2 from the pool, potentially 3 extra for free and then 2 or 3 purchased. That would be around 12 power dice by themselves every turn. Teclis doesn't even get that, nor Kairos, nor a Slann. Common sense.

More than twelve. They would have d3 plus however many they bought every time they cast a spell. It'd be risky, but a Grey Seer on a bell would at least have a 4+ ward.

Thanquol would have d6+2, and he would be able to reroll ones, potentially avoiding miscasts. He could reliably attempt all five of his spells every turn, and still leave the army's dice pool alone.

I think it still is significant that, regardless of what other books in other languages say, it certainly could make sense to consider them reusable.

As I and at least one other person has said, you buy "tokenS". Plural. You eat "some".
It could be like Empire Pigeon Bombs or anything else like that (Hell, like ammunition for your bow or pistol); enough to use throughout the battle.

And Power Stones are, if the Warpstone is one use only, better. Five less points. One more die. No chance of wounds.

I agree that it would get pretty crazy (a Grey Seer generating, in the above example, ten power dice by himself), and Thanquol would be even more so, but my point is that it is not just common sense that they are one use only.
I think that a lot of Skaven players could legitimately argue that they are reusable. Sure, some would do it just to gain an advantage, and some would abuse it to no end (a Grey Seer with six Warpstone tokens, Skalm, and a Screaming Bell), but it can and does make sense.
So let's not just say "of course not. Duh. You're dumb. I'm leaving". It's not just common sense. Each side has a point.

@warpsolution - thank you...

Bowing out now since it appears my information on 7E was faulty...

Lets look at it this way:

A Warpstone Token can add an extra dice on a per spell basis not a per turn basis as some have indicated in this tread. That means that if a Skaven caster has one or more they can add an additional dice for each spell they cast every turn.

A Grey Seer starts with D3 of these meaning that he can add D3 to EACH spell cast based on what people have said so far in this thread. This makes no sense to me what so ever.

The rules state that the token is CONSUMED this means that it has been eaten and cannot be used again that turn. Other Language Army Books list this as a one use only item. What more do you need to see that the rules on this are rather clear.

I have yet to see another language army book that says one use only...

Fluff/flavor text =! rules

What would be the point of ever taking warpstones over power stones? They are more expensive per power dice and they can hurt you.

Considering that Grey Seers get them for free they will be a very common place item.

Also I have never argued on fluff only rules.

Also some times you might want only one additional die rather than 2.

Ironback Boar. It doesn't say they are only buyable for Orcs on Foot, so you could buy one for a Wyvern Mounted Warboss. Thus, any time I charge I can do D3 S5 impact hits, plus get the boar's S5 attack in addition to my Wyvern and Rider's attack.

How do we know that you can't take it in combination with other mounts? All the rules say is "Boar": That doesn't mean he's treating it like a normal mount and thus non-compatible with other steeds. Furthermore, who's to say that it means the Warboss is supposed to be riding it? It never says that the Warboss must be riding it - it could be running alongside the Wyvern on a chain or something.

We're just going to have to wait for a FAQ to say that they can't be used together: Until then, I can keep using the Ironback Boar while playing a Wyvern Warboss. Who's to say RAW is wrong?

Negativemoney wrote:When a rules issue like this comes up its best to play it in the least advantageous way.

Amen to that.

fellblade wrote:The book does not say "One use only." It used to, and I think it was intended to this time. However, until GW corrects this via an errata, I would not argue if my opponent wants to use his warpstone tokens more than once. I simply won't play his Skaven army again until the error is corrected.

I'd give him A Look, but then not be surprised in the least when he rolls a 1 with all his inexhaustable tokens and fries his warp-addict casters. Then I would have a hearty bout of Laughing & Pointing. Lady Luck abides.

CptZach wrote:If these weren't reusable, why would you ever buy them?

Good question! I thought they were junk in the last book too, but free is free. The only time I used the things I lost my engineer to 1's

- Salvage

usernamesareannoying wrote: and guys... are you seriously telling me that someone using a warpstone token more than once, which by raw is legal, would make you want to quit playing them? jesus...

Only when they are playing Skaven.

To make me want to avoid playing them entirely, they'd have to have additional deficiencies in behavior, social skills, and/or hygiene.

The only army that can re-eat warpstone token would be rabbitmen , but they dont exist atm.

So... has anyone actually seen these other language books that say "One use only"? I understood that the Storm Banner is written as such, and this is how I play it. I kind of get the feeling that people are reporting rumours as facts.

All that aside, the feeling I have is that if you decide to load up on magic power, you will kill off your low-wound casters fairly quickly. The price you pay to burn really bright for two turns as opposed to 5+ in my mind...

One last thought: How many other unforseen combinations of items, characters and tactics out there that people consider unsporting? I can think of quite a few off the top of my head. Isn't the challenge to overcome the strengths of another army, or is it better to tell everyone that they can only take troops and one hero character with no magic items or spells (very balanced)?

Yes, the challenge is to overcome the armies strengths. but that isn't the real question here is it? There are two schools of thought here: RAW and RAI. RAW croud offers the "but it doesn't SAY 'one use only.'" and this has some merit. The RAI crowd says "but it clearly IMPLIES the it is one use only." which also has some merit and also has some precedent behind (as does RAW). Either of these two camps have those devoted to it so insanely that neither can see the other sides point. Kind of like the political system in the United States, where there are SOME politicians who, if the opposing party offered something up that would end all of the worlds problems and there was no disputing it, would vote against it simply because it was the opposition that proposed it.

Now, the question is what camp YOU are in, What camp those you PLAY against are in, and if either of you are so devoted to your camp that you fail to see the merit in the others argument and are unable reach either a ruling or a compromise.

As for your last comment about (very balanced), have you ever heard of a comp system. IMO, this is what comp systems do, try to make things "balanced." Most of them fail miserably.

as for the warp stone argument, I don't really care either way. I tend toward the RAI crowd that it's clearly supposed to be "one use only", not because of the rumored "other language books," but be cause I THINK (so in other words "IMHO") that the word "consumed" means that once you eat it, it is gone. I do see the arguments against this, but IMHO these arguments are weaker than the "consumed" argument. Any body relying on the "but it says one use only in other languages" is relying on hearsay.

I honestly just wanted to keep this going. Not trolling, just interested in the vaguely legitimate dialogue this is bringing forward. The only type I wish did not bother posting was the standard, "If they do (whatever thing their army can't do), I will pack up my stuff and tell the world how cheesy/lame/waac they are." which really has no place as an attitude to be participating in a game system.

And yes, my last phrase there was just a facetious take on the comp system and the problems I have with it.

On the warp stone argument, I suppose if we are going into the definition 'consumed' (RAI), do we also have to define the difference between a stone and a token, and how the two are related?

The only time I have ever declared I would not play said army is with the "boneripper can be my general" crowd . Other than that, i will listen to any well reasoned argument, both RAW and RAI.

I live in Europe and am trying to get my hands on as many different language Skaven books as I can. I am sure that Strombanner is one use only but I didn't check tokens when I had the chance. One thing you all haven't mentioned is in the debate between powerstones and warpstone tokens is powerstones are not stackable. You can only use 1 per spell. Warpstone Tokens are stackable and thus useable to "get the spell off" if you really have too. Or get the nessesary dice for the 13th spell. It's not basic statlines that kill in WFB it's the combos of items/stacking of stats, that's why Tokens are a bit more expensive (per dice) and may cause wounds.