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thebetter1 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:
There is no rule saying you must take action to get as many models into combat as possible.

There is actually. Page 34, 3rd paragraph; "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible".

So you're saying that taking a difficult terrain test is an attempt to get more models into contact. Couldn't this be applied in a different situation to intentionally not get all your models in contact? If so, when are you allowed to make a difficult terrain test?

You are forced to take a difficult terrain test if difficult terrain intersects the shortest path by which any model in your unit can reach the model in the enemy unit which it is targeting, according to the assault movement rules. If you wish to also charge another unit, and the path that model chooses to follow to the model it is targeting in the target unit passes through difficult terrain, you must also take a difficult terrain test.

BeRzErKeR wrote:You are forced to take a difficult terrain test if difficult terrain intersects the shortest path by which any model in your unit can reach the model in the enemy unit which it is targeting, according to the assault movement rules. If you wish to also charge another unit, and the path that model chooses to follow to the model it is targeting in the target unit passes through difficult terrain, you must also take a difficult terrain test.

Really? So why hasn't anybody quoted this rule yet? Maybe because it doesn't exist?

kirsanth wrote:Well, it could be argued that at least occationally taking the DT test could be trying to get less models into base.

/shrug

Yet another reason that the majority's argument is impossible to carry out consistently.

don_mondo wrote:First of al, ignore better1, he's once again proving his inability to actually read and understand the rules.
If any model in the assaulting unit is going to have to move through cover to fulfill it's required movement per the assault rules, you test and the entire unit is limited to that distance on the assault. It's really that simple, in spite of the looong posts above.

Ignore Don Mondo, because he thinks he's a time traveler.

thebetter1 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:First of al, ignore better1, he's once again proving his inability to actually read and understand the rules.
If any model in the assaulting unit is going to have to move through cover to fulfill it's required movement per the assault rules, you test and the entire unit is limited to that distance on the assault. It's really that simple, in spite of the looong posts above.

Ignore Don Mondo, because he thinks he's a time traveler.

I happen to agree with Don_Mondo

The Green Git wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:1. What rule tells you to measure future models?

Pg 34 Para 2 "...make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase..."
Pg 14 Para 3 "If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain..."
Pg 14 Para 3 "Even if the distance rolled is too short for any of the models to reach the difficult terrain, the unit is still slowed down..."

You have to declare the intent to move into difficult BEFORE you move the first model per the rules on Pg 14. That means you have to measure future movement. That means if you move the first model without declaring the intent to move into difficult YOU CANNOT MOVE INTO DIFFICULT.

thebetter1 wrote:2. How do you measure later models if the movement of other models will decide what they do?

You have to know how far all models can move before you move any. Pg 14 Para 3.

thebetter1 wrote:3. What if dangerous terrain kills off a model? This could completely throw off your predictions.

Since you move one model at a time, and all have to end in coherency, this is a non-issue. Test as you go and if one model dies the next has to end in coherency. Pg 34 Para 3.

thebetter1 wrote:4. If you cannot measure ahead or are not required to, as I have already shown, then what happens if suddenly a model is found to walk through terrain? What do you do with the models that have already moved? Make sure you back up your answer to this one.

You have not shown that you cannot measure ahead. The rules states you MUST roll for difficult and MUST measure ahead, at least for the first model. If that one can't make it the assault fails. Period.

Let me just say, this was DAMN good. This is exactly how rules interpretations should go, and I'm very impressed by the efficiency and civility.

I do have one more question to piggyback off of this thread. Anyone who knows what they're doing, please feel free to chime in.

I'll lay out the scenario in steps:

(Use the original diagram for my illustration)
1. You declare a multi-charge, of which some models will move through dangerous terrain
2. There is only one model able to assault squad B (which is in dangerous terrain) after rolling for the test
3. That one model takes said dangerous terrain test, and fails

Is the charge is no longer a multi-charge as no one in the charging unit was able to make base contact? Since the squad was able to reach the closest squad, the charge would occur as normal and only models within 2" would be able to strike, as some might be out of 2" because they were adhering to coherency rules until their one clumsy friend stepped into the acid pool to reach squad B

I had this situation come up a few times and that's how we handled it... The assault continued as normal and a few people didn't get to fight because they were strung out too far attempting to make it a multi-charge.

1) You never declare a multicharge - you can only ever declare a single target, but are given permission to engage other targets

2) If the only model able to assault B is dead, B is not assaulted.

thebetter1 does appear to have shown a remarkable ability to ignore the rules quoted so far. If you MUST enage as many models as possible and this requires you to pass through DT you MUST pass through DT and therefore take the test. It is incredibly simple....

thebetter1 wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:You are forced to take a difficult terrain test if difficult terrain intersects the shortest path by which any model in your unit can reach the model in the enemy unit which it is targeting, according to the assault movement rules. If you wish to also charge another unit, and the path that model chooses to follow to the model it is targeting in the target unit passes through difficult terrain, you must also take a difficult terrain test.

Really? So why hasn't anybody quoted this rule yet? Maybe because it doesn't exist?

No one has "quoted this rule yet" because many people on YMDC, yourself included, show a remarkable and persistent dislike of following rules to their logical conclusion. The first sentence of my statement, "You are forced to take a difficult terrain test if difficult terrain intersects the shortest path by which any model in your unit can reach the model in the enemy unit which it is targeting, according to the assault movement rules", is essentially a summary of the Assault Movement Rules. The second part, "If you wish to also charge another unit, and the path that model chooses to follow to the model it is targeting in the target unit passes through difficult terrain, you must also take a difficult terrain test", follows directly from them.

I am very uncertain on this.

A terrain test is needed if the straight path along the way to the closest model in the target unit involves terrain.

OK.

Now move on. Only the closest to closest (first move) actually requires movement in a straight line. In fact, this is the point the terrain check is mentioned.

When moving other models, you are required to engage as many models as possible -- this could involve terrain. But if moving a bit further, or around terrain will engage the same number of models, this is allowed -- with only the assumption that the move is not more than the maximum distance.

As I read it, this is a large part of people's disagreement.

ymmv

BeRzErKeR wrote:No one has "quoted this rule yet" because many people on YMDC, yourself included, show a remarkable and persistent dislike of following rules to their logical conclusion. The first sentence of my statement, "You are forced to take a difficult terrain test if difficult terrain intersects the shortest path by which any model in your unit can reach the model in the enemy unit which it is targeting, according to the assault movement rules", is essentially a summary of the Assault Movement Rules. The second part, "If you wish to also charge another unit, and the path that model chooses to follow to the model it is targeting in the target unit passes through difficult terrain, you must also take a difficult terrain test", follows directly from them.

This is not a summary of the assault rules. This is an attempt to add to the assault rules to make your point seem more valid. Models are not required to move in the shortest possible path to reach an enemy unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:thebetter1 does appear to have shown a remarkable ability to ignore the rules quoted so far. If you MUST enage as many models as possible and this requires you to pass through DT you MUST pass through DT and therefore take the test. It is incredibly simple....

And how exactly are you supposed to know whether you are going to pass through difficult terrain in the future?

Think about it. Let's say you are assaulting through a narrow corridor of open ground with difficult terrain to each side. Depending on how the models are moved, it may or may not be possible to get all the models in without going through the terrain. Now let's say you make a mistake (still following all the assault rules, of course) and some models block the path of others so that the only way the back models can get in is to move through the terrain. What happens then? No rule was ever broken. The rules do not allow you to just move all the models back to where they used to be and then make a difficult terrain test (permissive rules and all that).

The answer to the above scenario is that the model would move freely up to 6'' and would not be allowed to enter the terrain.

Your argument has another flaw that makes it impossible to carry out. The rules do not give you permission to premeasure assaulting models until it is their turn to be moved. If you try to measure each model beforehand to see whether it might require crossing difficult terrain, you are measuring illegally.

To do what you are saying is incredibly simple is physically impossible to carry out consistently (that is, unless you change the rules to add in all these fake restrictions you guys have been quoting). The rulebook does not tell you that you need to look ahead and plan out all your future moves (and even if you do have to, there is nothing stopping you from changing your mind when you actually move).

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) You never declare a multicharge - you can only ever declare a single target, but are given permission to engage other targets

2) If the only model able to assault B is dead, B is not assaulted.

thebetter1 does appear to have shown a remarkable ability to ignore the rules quoted so far. If you MUST enage as many models as possible and this requires you to pass through DT you MUST pass through DT and therefore take the test. It is incredibly simple....

Thank you, I thought it was such. Anyone else want to weigh in?

thebetter1 wrote: And how exactly are you supposed to know whether you are going to pass through difficult terrain in the future?

By measuring.

thebetter1 wrote: Think about it. Let's say you are assaulting through a narrow corridor of open ground with difficult terrain to each side. Depending on how the models are moved, it may or may not be possible to get all the models in without going through the terrain. Now let's say you make a mistake (still following all the assault rules, of course) and some models block the path of others so that the only way the back models can get in is to move through the terrain. What happens then? No rule was ever broken. The rules do not allow you to just move all the models back to where they used to be and then make a difficult terrain test (permissive rules and all that).

The answer to the above scenario is that the model would move freely up to 6'' and would not be allowed to enter the terrain.

No, the answer to the above is found in the first sentence on the upper right hand side of page 36 of the rulebook, the section titled "Assaulting through cover'. If any model in the unit has to go through difficult or dangerous terrain then the unit must make the relevant test. Now read that rule a little further on. It tells you that one disadvantage of this is that the assault may fail if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy. The second paragraph even repeats that the assaulting models have to try to engage as many of the enemy as possible. If the only way to determine this is to measure the distance from each and every model in the assaulting unit, then that's what you have to do.

thebetter1 wrote: Your argument has another flaw that makes it impossible to carry out. The rules do not give you permission to premeasure assaulting models until it is their turn to be moved. If you try to measure each model beforehand to see whether it might require crossing difficult terrain, you are measuring illegally.

You are misquoting the rules here. The rules state that you can't measure the distance to your enemy's unit before declaring the assault. They never say that after you declare the assault that you can't measure! Suppose you have 2 models next to each other, The rules state that you start the assault by moving the model closest to the enemy into contact with the nearest enemy model. Which of the 2 is the closest? Well, after you measure the distance from each one, you will know. Nothing in the assault rule prevents you from measuring the distance from your models to the enemy unit after the assault has been declared.

thebetter1 wrote: To do what you are saying is incredibly simple is physically impossible to carry out consistently (that is, unless you change the rules to add in all these fake restrictions you guys have been quoting). The rulebook does not tell you that you need to look ahead and plan out all your future moves (and even if you do have to, there is nothing stopping you from changing your mind when you actually move).

Only the movement rules give you the option to change your mind. Read "Movement distance" on page 11. Only there can you measure a movement distance in one direction, change the direction, or decide not to move the unit at all.
Now read the first sentence on page 34 under "Move assaulting units". It starts with; "Assaulting units must now move into close combat with the unit they have declared an assault against." There is no option here to change your mind. Once you declare an assault, and it does not violate any of the bullet poinnts on page 33 under "Disallowed asaults", you will continue the assault. Only if difficult or dangerous terrain tests are such that your unit does not have the necessary distance to engage the enemy with the closest model will the assault fail.

I apologize for going on so long as this subject has been done to death already in other threads. But there is apparantly still a bit of mistaken rules knowledge on the part of some players, and I hope that I have helped them overcome their confusion.

time wizard wrote:No, the answer to the above is found in the first sentence on the upper right hand side of page 36 of the rulebook, the section titled "Assaulting through cover'. If any model in the unit has to go through difficult or dangerous terrain then the unit must make the relevant test. Now read that rule a little further on. It tells you that one disadvantage of this is that the assault may fail if the closest model cannot make it into contact with the enemy. The second paragraph even repeats that the assaulting models have to try to engage as many of the enemy as possible. If the only way to determine this is to measure the distance from each and every model in the assaulting unit, then that's what you have to do.

See, that's really the rub of the whole argument. Either you believe that the DT test is made at the beginning before the first model is moved, or you believe that if the first model/models/whatever can contact the enemy unit, then no DT test has to be made, and "if possible" in this case means that it is not possible to move into DT because the unit didn't take the test.

So basically, do the rules tell you to check for DT halfway through the assault, or only at the beginning, and if you don't check for DT, are you still satisfying the "if possible" part of the assault rule by not attempting to move into DT.

The rules are unclear on those two points, and arguing otherwise is pretty foolish.

BRB (34) wrote:Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible

This is then followed by a series of steps detailing exactly how to move models. It clearly states that the first model must make a difficult terrain test if it is necessary, but does not require this for any other models.

BRB (34) wrote:If you follow this sequence you will end up...having engaged as many enemy models as possible with as many assaulting models as possible.

This tells us that following the given sequence is engaging as many models as possible. Making difficult terrain tests with any model besides the first is not part of the sequence.

time wizard wrote:If any model in the unit has to go through difficult or dangerous terrain then the unit must make the relevant test.

But if you follow the assault rules given, the models will actually be allowed to move around difficult terrain if you don't make a difficult terrain test, therefore this cannot possibly apply. Now if one of the models is actually starting inside difficult terrain, then it would be known to have to move through difficult terrain, so then this would work, but that's not what we are debating.

time wizard wrote:You are misquoting the rules here. The rules state that you can't measure the distance to your enemy's unit before declaring the assault. They never say that after you declare the assault that you can't measure! Suppose you have 2 models next to each other, The rules state that you start the assault by moving the model closest to the enemy into contact with the nearest enemy model. Which of the 2 is the closest? Well, after you measure the distance from each one, you will know. Nothing in the assault rule prevents you from measuring the distance from your models to the enemy unit after the assault has been declared.

You should know better than to use an "It doesn't say I can't" argument for measuring.

thebetter1 wrote:

time wizard wrote:You are misquoting the rules here. The rules state that you can't measure the distance to your enemy's unit before declaring the assault. They never say that after you declare the assault that you can't measure! Suppose you have 2 models next to each other, The rules state that you start the assault by moving the model closest to the enemy into contact with the nearest enemy model. Which of the 2 is the closest? Well, after you measure the distance from each one, you will know. Nothing in the assault rule prevents you from measuring the distance from your models to the enemy unit after the assault has been declared.

You should know better than to use an "It doesn't say I can't" argument for measuring.

I didn't. You were the one saying you couldn't "premeasure" the distance from any model. I concur, you cannot measure any distance in the assault phase until you declare the assault. However, after the assault has been declared you can then measure the distnace form a number of models. If not, then again I ask, if you have 2 models that seem close to the same distance to the enemy unit, how do you know for sure which is closer without measure the destance for each model?

You do have a terrific grasp of the assault rules on page 34 of the rules. You hang your argument on them. However, you seem to continually choose to ignore the rules on page 36 that specifically address assaulting through cover. I can't imagine why.

The assault rules use the word 'must' a number of times. You must move the closest model first. You must move into base contact with unengaged models if opssible. You must remain in coherency. You must take relevant terrain tests.

thebetter1 wrote:The answer to the above scenario is that the model would move freely up to 6'' and would not be allowed to enter the terrain.

This rule I must have missed. Can you point it out to me in the ruels? I'd appreciate it.

time wizard wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:The answer to the above scenario is that the model would move freely up to 6'' and would not be allowed to enter the terrain.

This rule I must have missed. Can you point it out to me in the ruels? I'd appreciate it.

The "If possible" part of the second bullet point of page 34.

It is not possible to move into terrain, as per the movement rules (page 14), if no terrain check is taken.

Yes, but all that would make it "not possible" would be impassable terrain, blocking friendly models, blocking enemy models not involved in the assault, a gap narrower than the models base, etc.
If the only thing between the assaulting model and the enemy model is difficult or dangerous terrain, then the unit must take the relevant test. That is what I was referring to. And the rules on page 36 clearly cover what to do when assaulting through cover.
If you can move all the models in the assaulting unit in compliance within the rules for moving assaulting models on page 34 without a single model moving through difficult or dangerous terain, then yes, you do not have to test.

But if any model has to move through the terrain, then the unit must take the relevant test. That is the point I have been trying to make.

time wizard wrote:
But if any model has to move through the terrain, then the unit must take the relevant test. That is the point I have been trying to make.

And the point we are making is that a model CANNOT move in difficult terrain if a difficult terrain test is not made, making it NOT POSSIBLE to move into terrain, and therefore still satisfying the assault rules of attempting to move all models into contact if possible.

The debate hinges on whether you believe a model is forced to move through terrain to make a successful assault after the first model has been moved. The rules are not ironclad in this.

whitedragon wrote:
The debate hinges on whether you believe a model is forced to move through terrain to make a successful assault after the first model has been moved. The rules are not ironclad in this.

Please read the 1st sentence of the 2nd paragraph under "Moving assaulting models" on page 34 and then the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph under "Assaulting through cover" on page 36 and explain to me which part of "...no holding back..." is not ironclad?

Also, the rules never say that if you do not take a difficult terrain test you don't move through the terrain, the rules do say that if you move through difficult terrain you must take the test.

time wizard wrote:
Also, the rules never say that if you do not take a difficult terrain test you don't move through the terrain, the rules do say that if you move through difficult terrain you must take the test.

If you do not move through cover, you need not take a test, and therefore cannot move into difficult terrain.

Yeah. Okay.

So what part of the assault rules forces you to take a DT test or move through difficult terrain?

In fairness, (only) the first model moved, closest to closest very well might.

whitedragon wrote:So what part of the assault rules forces you to take a DT test or move through difficult terrain?

The part that says your unit (as in all the models in the unit) must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible, followed by the part that says after the first model moves (which must be the one closest to the enemy and must move the shortest distance) that says the 2nd model to move must move into base contact with an unengaged enemy model if possible and the assault through cover rules that state that if any model has to move through difficult terrain then the unit must take the relevant test.

I really don't know how much clearer I can make this so I don't see any reason to continue to try.

"If possible".

This means that if it is not possible, the movement is not required.

It is still not possible to move models into terrain if the optional (which it is if it is not the first model) terrain check is not made.

kirsanth wrote:"If possible".

This means that if it is not possible, the movement is not required.

It is still not possible to move models into terrain if the optional (which it is if it is not the first model) terrain check is not made.

Please cite (with page number) the specific rule in the assault section that says the terrain check is optional.
Can't find it?
That's because it's not there, and it is not optional.
You move through the terrain, you take the test. Period.

time wizard wrote:
You move through the terrain, you take the test. Period.

This part is correct.
The part that has been repeatedly quoted makes this optional for all models other than the first.

Editing to add:
Circular debate/arguments are boring as well as useless.
Yes, you keep repeating yourself, but have not proven anything other than you willingness to repost without responding.

time wizard wrote:Please cite (with page number) the specific rule in the assault section that says the terrain check is optional.
Can't find it?
That's because it's not there, and it is not optional.
You move through the terrain, you take the test. Period.

Please cite the section that says the assault rules force you to move through difficult terrain? You can't, because they aren't there. It merely says that if you move through DT, you must take a DT test. It also says that you must attempt to get all models in contact.

Well, you can't move models in DT if you don't take a DT test, so it's not possible for you to move through terrain, so you must get as many models in base to base contact as you can without moving through terrain, since you aren't permitted to enter it because you didn't take a DT test.

Kirsanth and I have summed up the crux of the debate repeatedly and you refuse to acknowledge it.

kirsanth wrote:"If possible".

This means that if it is not possible, the movement is not required.

It is still not possible to move models into terrain if the optional (which it is if it is not the first model) terrain check is not made.

But, what determines if the move is "possible?"

You see, for a typical unit, it is possible to reach a model that is 6" away and in cover. It does require a dif-terrain roll of a "6," but it is possible. It's not possible to reach one 10" away, or on the other side of impassable terrain, for example.

Just because something is possible doesn't mean that you can actually do it. In this case, assaulting such that you might have to go through cover with some of a unit's models, you do not know if the possible is achievable until you roll the terrain test.

Saldiven wrote:But, what determines if the move is "possible?"

Glad to see that you understand the problem.