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Unit A can set up a multiple assault on unit B and C. X=difficult terrain.

........B
A...x
.....xxC
......xx

Unit A declares B as the target and its 3 inches away.
Unit A moves 2 models to engage them, and can then also move a 3rd model to engage unit C. However, the shortest route to unit C is 5 inches, through difficult terrain.

You roll the dice for difficult terrain, and a 2" result comes up.
1) What happens: a) the entire assault fails b) the assault to unit C fails

You roll the dice for difficult terrain, and a 4" result comes up.
2) What happens: a) the entire assault fails b) the assault to unit C fails

Let's say there is a 6" route to unit C, avoiding the difficult terrain altogether, around it as it were.
3) May I assault the unit C, with a member of unit A around the terrain, not in a straight line? I think only the first model of unit A has to move using the shortest route in assault, not the subsequent assaulters?

Off the top of my head...if any model in the squad plans on moving through terrain to assault then you must roll for terrain for the entire unit, not just the ones going through terrain. If you assault a unit that's not in terrain and you move the first model the full 6 inches then no other model may then try to move through cover for any reason in that assault phase.

If any figure in the unit tries to go through difficult terrain, then you have to roll the die for movement. If the opponent tries to do that, he/she must then pull all the figures back and roll the die to see how far the whole unit can run. He cannot just move the figures that are not intending to go through cover the 6" and then roll for the figures who are not.

The real question then becomes, does the whole attacking unit attack at initiative 1, which I would assume so as you've made a terrain test when assaulting.

Yup. As above. And yes, the assaulting unit is assaulting through cover. Hope they have grenades!

Mannahnin wrote:Yup. As above. And yes, the assaulting unit is assaulting through cover. Hope they have grenades!

Unless they are IG, in which case their Grenades do nothing, but that's a story for another day

s2ua7 has it correct anywho.

s2ua7 wrote:If the opponent tries to do that, he/she must then pull all the figures back and roll the die to see how far the whole unit can run. He cannot just move the figures that are not intending to go through cover the 6" and then roll for the figures who are not.

This isn't how it works, simply because no rule allows you to pull figures back, and no rule requires you to look ahead to see if a model will move through terrain.

The first model moved in an assault must be moved the shortest possible distance. If this would take it through difficult terrain, you must test for the whole unit. If not, you are allowed to decide whether to take the difficult terrain test. If you do, all models will be slowed down. If you don't, no model may move through difficult terrain.

thebetter1 wrote:

s2ua7 wrote:If the opponent tries to do that, he/she must then pull all the figures back and roll the die to see how far the whole unit can run. He cannot just move the figures that are not intending to go through cover the 6" and then roll for the figures who are not.

This isn't how it works, simply because no rule allows you to pull figures back, and no rule requires you to look ahead to see if a model will move through terrain.

The first model moved in an assault must be moved the shortest possible distance. If this would take it through difficult terrain, you must test for the whole unit. If not, you are allowed to decide whether to take the difficult terrain test. If you do, all models will be slowed down. If you don't, no model may move through difficult terrain.

If you do not test, then no models may enter the terrain, which results in you performing illegal movements (as there is a VERY strict way to move assaulting models) and thus the game explodes!

The rules require that if any model will have to test, the the whole unit has to test, and if the test result isn't far enough to make contact, they don't assault.

This can often require you to measure later models, not just the initial model, to find out of an assault will work, before moving the assaulters.

Mannahnin wrote:The rules require that if any model will have to test, the the whole unit has to test, and if the test result isn't far enough to make contact, they don't assault.

This can often require you to measure later models, not just the initial model, to find out of an assault will work, before moving the assaulters.

There are so many problems with this.

1. What rule tells you to measure future models?
2. How do you measure later models if the movement of other models will decide what they do?
3. What if dangerous terrain kills off a model? This could completely throw off your predictions.
4. If you cannot measure ahead or are not required to, as I have already shown, then what happens if suddenly a model is found to walk through terrain? What do you do with the models that have already moved? Make sure you back up your answer to this one.

Gwar! wrote:The first model moved in an assault must be moved the shortest possible distance. If this would take it through difficult terrain, you must test for the whole unit. If not, you are allowed to decide whether to take the difficult terrain test. If you do, all models will be slowed down. If you don't, no model may move through difficult terrain.

If you do not test, then no models may enter the terrain, which results in you performing illegal movements (as there is a VERY strict way to move assaulting models) and thus the game explodes!

thebetter1 wrote:1. What rule tells you to measure future models?

Pg 34 Para 2 "...make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase..."
Pg 14 Para 3 "If a unit starts its move outside difficult terrain, the player must declare if he wants his unit to try to enter difficult terrain..."
Pg 14 Para 3 "Even if the distance rolled is too short for any of the models to reach the difficult terrain, the unit is still slowed down..."

You have to declare the intent to move into difficult BEFORE you move the first model per the rules on Pg 14. That means you have to measure future movement. That means if you move the first model without declaring the intent to move into difficult YOU CANNOT MOVE INTO DIFFICULT.

thebetter1 wrote:2. How do you measure later models if the movement of other models will decide what they do?

You have to know how far all models can move before you move any. Pg 14 Para 3.

thebetter1 wrote:3. What if dangerous terrain kills off a model? This could completely throw off your predictions.

Since you move one model at a time, and all have to end in coherency, this is a non-issue. Test as you go and if one model dies the next has to end in coherency. Pg 34 Para 3.

thebetter1 wrote:4. If you cannot measure ahead or are not required to, as I have already shown, then what happens if suddenly a model is found to walk through terrain? What do you do with the models that have already moved? Make sure you back up your answer to this one.

You have not shown that you cannot measure ahead. The rules states you MUST roll for difficult and MUST measure ahead, at least for the first model. If that one can't make it the assault fails. Period.

thebetter1 wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The rules require that if any model will have to test, the the whole unit has to test, and if the test result isn't far enough to make contact, they don't assault.

This can often require you to measure later models, not just the initial model, to find out of an assault will work, before moving the assaulters.

There are so many problems with this.

1. What rule tells you to measure future models?

It’s an unavoidable consequence of the specific instructions for making assault moves, and the rules for assaulting through difficult terrain.

thebetter1 wrote:2. How do you measure later models if the movement of other models will decide what they do?

It’s pretty easy. After the initial model, the assaulting player can choose the paths chosen by the assaulting models, as long as they follow the requirements given.

thebetter1 wrote:3. What if dangerous terrain kills off a model? This could completely throw off your predictions.

If it’s an issue, it’s best to test for each model as it moves through the dangerous terrain. If it dies, just move on to the next model and continue moving per the usual requirements. No fuss, no muss.

thebetter1 wrote:4. If you cannot measure ahead or are not required to, as I have already shown, then what happens if suddenly a model is found to walk through terrain? What do you do with the models that have already moved? Make sure you back up your answer to this one.

If, when looking at the units involved, and the terrain involved, it becomes apparent that one or more of the models are probably going to have to go through terrain, you roll the test as soon as it becomes apparent. IME this very rarely involves having to move models backwards. A few second of work with your eyeballs and the tape measure almost always give a clear answer. If not, then you can always put a coin or a counter or something down on the table to mark the position of the first model. Warhammer players do this all the time when it’s not clear whether a unit will successfully reach on a charge move.

I have no opinion on the rule but CAPTAIN BEEFHEART FTW!

EDIT: He being Nivoglibina's avatar.

The Green Git wrote:You have to declare the intent to move into difficult BEFORE you move the first model per the rules on Pg 14. That means you have to measure future movement. That means if you move the first model without declaring the intent to move into difficult YOU CANNOT MOVE INTO DIFFICULT.

You're half right. You do have to declare the intent to move in before the first model. It does not follow that you have to measure future movement. There is no rule saying you must take action to get as many models into combat as possible. Think about it. The assault rules provide a very specific method of getting as many models in as possible, so why should you have to do more than that?

The Green Git wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:2. How do you measure later models if the movement of other models will decide what they do?

You have to know how far all models can move before you move any. Pg 14 Para 3.

I fail to see how that rule is relevant.

The Green Git wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:3. What if dangerous terrain kills off a model? This could completely throw off your predictions.

Since you move one model at a time, and all have to end in coherency, this is a non-issue. Test as you go and if one model dies the next has to end in coherency. Pg 34 Para 3.

What if the lack of one model would force another model to enter difficult terrain? It's perfectly possible, although rare. Would the second model magically force all the previously moved models to have moved in a different way? (time travel does not work in real life)

The Green Git wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:4. If you cannot measure ahead or are not required to, as I have already shown, then what happens if suddenly a model is found to walk through terrain? What do you do with the models that have already moved? Make sure you back up your answer to this one.

You have not shown that you cannot measure ahead. The rules states you MUST roll for difficult and MUST measure ahead, at least for the first model. If that one can't make it the assault fails. Period.

When did I ever argue anything about the first model?

Mannahnin wrote:It’s an unavoidable consequence of the specific instructions for making assault moves, and the rules for assaulting through difficult terrain.

Can you at least attempt to justify your logic here?

Mannahnin wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:2. How do you measure later models if the movement of other models will decide what they do?

It’s pretty easy. After the initial model, the assaulting player can choose the paths chosen by the assaulting models, as long as they follow the requirements given.

Yes, but you do that when you come to the models, not before you start moving anybody.

Mannahnin wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:3. What if dangerous terrain kills off a model? This could completely throw off your predictions.

If it’s an issue, it’s best to test for each model as it moves through the dangerous terrain. If it dies, just move on to the next model and continue moving per the usual requirements. No fuss, no muss.

You didn't answer my question at all.

Mannahnin wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:4. If you cannot measure ahead or are not required to, as I have already shown, then what happens if suddenly a model is found to walk through terrain? What do you do with the models that have already moved? Make sure you back up your answer to this one.

If, when looking at the units involved, and the terrain involved, it becomes apparent that one or more of the models are probably going to have to go through terrain, you roll the test as soon as it becomes apparent. IME this very rarely involves having to move models backwards. A few second of work with your eyeballs and the tape measure almost always give a clear answer. If not, then you can always put a coin or a counter or something down on the table to mark the position of the first model. Warhammer players do this all the time when it’s not clear whether a unit will successfully reach on a charge move.

What's all this about "becoming apparent?" The assault rules are very specific. Doing something as soon as it "seems necessary" does not work in a competitive environment. Also, you have not shown any rule that allows you to move models back.

GW's rules are not written to the stringency of a competitive sport.

The rules are clear, and the requirement to check and measure for models beyond the first is an unavoidable consequence.

We've been over this ground before.

I'm still waiting to here why you believe that you must take action to get as many models into combat as possible. The assault rules are supposed to handle it for you. Would you also argue that a unit with fleet is required to run towards its target so that more models can get into base contact?

thebetter1 wrote:I'm still waiting to here why you believe that you must take action to get as many models into combat as possible. The assault rules are supposed to handle it for you. Would you also argue that a unit with fleet is required to run towards its target so that more models can get into base contact?

And the reason you think Shooting phase rules apply in the Assault phase is...?

What?

The rules explicitly instruct you to attempt to get as many models as you can into contact, and explicitly tell you that if any of them have to go through difficult, that the whole unit tests, and won't move if none of the models can reach.

The process used to best obey those instructions may be slightly counterintuitive, but it's not very hard to follow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

What's all this about "becoming apparent?" The assault rules are very specific. Doing something as soon as it "seems necessary" does not work in a competitive environment. Also, you have not shown any rule that allows you to move models back.

Seriously, try playing Warhammer Fantasy some time. Try measuring charge moves and wheels. Nobody who plays WH would even blink at “becoming apparent”. This is GW, and that's really how it works.

Gwar! wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:I'm still waiting to here why you believe that you must take action to get as many models into combat as possible. The assault rules are supposed to handle it for you. Would you also argue that a unit with fleet is required to run towards its target so that more models can get into base contact?

And the reason you think Shooting phase rules apply in the Assault phase is...?

And why exactly do you think difficult terrain rolls should apply after the unit has started to move?

Mannahnin wrote:The rules explicitly instruct you to attempt to get as many models as you can into contact, and explicitly tell you that if any of them have to go through difficult, that the whole unit tests, and won't move if none of the models can reach.

No, the rules tell you to move your models in a very specific way that usually gets as many models into contact as possible. In some cases, the system actually causes you to end up with models outside of the combat that would have made it if they were allowed to move freely.

Mannahnin wrote:

What's all this about "becoming apparent?" The assault rules are very specific. Doing something as soon as it "seems necessary" does not work in a competitive environment. Also, you have not shown any rule that allows you to move models back.

Seriously, try playing Warhammer Fantasy some time. Try measuring charge moves and wheels. Nobody who plays WH would even blink at “becoming apparent”. This is GW, and that's really how it works.

We aren't talking about Fantasy. We also aren't talking about "playing GW." We are talking about playing 40k.

Yay, it's time for the latest reincarnation of the "Assault through Partial Cover" thread.

I'd like to point out a few things, though. First, the answers to the OP's questions are a bit simpler than the general case.

The answer to question 3 is "Yes". If every other model can legally avoid difficult terrain by taking the long way, then all of those other models can go the long way.

For questions 1 and 2, there's a stipulation that the effects of the difficult terrain test have to be applied retroactively in order to bring the game back into conformance with the rules because if any model enters difficult terrain, that causes a difficult terrain test which applies to the whole unit, and if some of the unit's models have moved further than the test's result, then they moved in violation of the difficult terrain rules. If the terrain test causes the first model to come up short, then the assault fails, no questions asked, and everything gets put back in its starting positions.

If the difficult terrain test comes up short to reach the second unit, then all that means is that it's not possible to reach that unit but the difficult terrain test result still stands. There are no rules requiring models from unit A to engage models from unit C, so there's no harm if A can't reach C after applying the results of the test.

However, if you don't have a compelling reason to make a difficult terrain test to reach unit B, and you don't make one before moving, there's no real compelling reason to allow you to make one on the off chance that you'd be able to reach unit C. The second and subsequent models can go the long away around obstacles, and there's no rule compelling them to engage unit C, so there's no rule compelling them to go through difficult terrain. That means that there's no compelling reason to allow measurement to see how far it is from A to C, and no really compelling reason to go through either the retroactive difficult terrain business or the pre-measuring business over an optional die roll that one of the players opted out of.

Edit: Just to be clear, I mean that there's no compelling rule-based argument to allow a retroactive correction in order to go through difficult terrain to reach unit C. It might be courteous to allow a person to stop during the assault move and change his or her mind, make the difficult terrain test accepting that there's a risk that the whole assault could fail, and then make any necessary retroactive corrections, but a matter of courtesy (to which different standards may apply in various situations) and not rules.

To answer the OP's question:

1. A
2. B
3. No. The first model absolutely has to move through difficult terrain if it would be the shortest distance, although subsequent models are free to move around, and will be forced to move around if no difficult terrain test was taken before moving.

Just to point out: Unit A has to declare its charge against either unit B or unit C. By 5th edition rules, a unit has one, and only one, charge target.

There are no more declared multiple charges in 5th edition, so the closest model in unit A has to move to to the closest model of whichever unit its declared charge target is. This is the situation I based my answer on.

If A declares a charge against C, then the whole business about moving through difficult terrain to get to C is optional. If A had declared a charge against C, then the shortest route through difficult terrain becomes mandatory. In this case, thebetter1's answer would be correct.

Thank you very much for answering all of my questions everyone!

Sorry, just a quick addition:
Couldn't the attacker send the whole squad to B and then Massacre to C (depending on the role of the dice if he makes it) and avoid difficult terrain all together and getting to keep his squad together? I'm not that great with rules so I may be completely wrong, but that's what I would do in that situation. Well, if it's legal.

You cannot consolidate into a new combat, you must stay 1" away

thebetter1 wrote:
There is no rule saying you must take action to get as many models into combat as possible.

There is actually. Page 34, 3rd paragraph; "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible".

BeRzErKeR wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:
There is no rule saying you must take action to get as many models into combat as possible.

There is actually. Page 34, 3rd paragraph; "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible".

Omg, how dare you read the rulebook! That kinda behaviour ain't welcomed in these here parts. Move along Sir!

BeRzErKeR wrote:

thebetter1 wrote:
There is no rule saying you must take action to get as many models into combat as possible.

There is actually. Page 34, 3rd paragraph; "Assaulting units must attempt to engage as many opposing models as possible with as many of their models as possible".

So you're saying that taking a difficult terrain test is an attempt to get more models into contact. Couldn't this be applied in a different situation to intentionally not get all your models in contact? If so, when are you allowed to make a difficult terrain test?

Also, this still doesn't provide any standards by which the difficult terrain test must be taken. The assault rules provide a very specific method of moving models to the point where there is no ambiguity. Because the rules do not clearly define when a test must be taken except for the first model, this really means nothing in this context.

No, taking a DT test is a *consequence* of trying to engage as many models as possible - you MUST engage as many as possible, which in some cases will require you to go through terrain, triggering the test.

First of al, ignore better1, he's once again proving his inability to actually read and understand the rules.
If any model in the assaulting unit is going to have to move through cover to fulfill it's required movement per the assault rules, you test and the entire unit is limited to that distance on the assault. It's really that simple, in spite of the looong posts above.

Well, it could be argued that at least occationally taking the DT test could be trying to get less models into base.

/shrug