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I sort of like the Battle Cannon , with 72" range i can just park them in the middle of the board and shoot at anyone sticking their head out to peep.

And i dont have to worry about driving closer to be in range to shoot the gun. ( status wise , i can get around 2-3 extra turns of shooting because of long range )

Ivan wrote:
Being less than 24" away from the enemy means there is a good chance you're in range to be assaulted. Or in range for their transport to move/unload/fire meltas. Meltas dont care much that you're armor 14.

To use your own phrase, "Bad logic." Meltas definitely aren't auto-win versus AV14.

Vs melee... The Demolisher, being closer to the enemy to make use of it's awesome (but 24" range) gun isnt really armor 14. It's armor 11, which is what bikes, jump troops, surviving targets, etc will be assaulting it at. Almost always at 4+ to hit. They dont have to destroy it with S6 Krak grenades, either. Even shutting it down for a turn, with it's large point value, and they've got the effective victory.

To this I have to say, "So what?" 165 points is not a lot of points. Marine players don't suddenly throw up their hands in despair if they lose two Land Speeders; Chaos players don't scoop the dice and quit if they lose two Oblits. Same with Guard. A full squad of Marines assaulting a Demolisher with Krak grenades is going to get a single vehicle damage table result; would you really be better off if they murdered your line squads instead? Added that they have to actually get past the first shot which will always be the Demolisher's; bikes can get cover from turbo but die to multilasers just fine. Assault squads get gutted in the open. Assault units in Land Raiders are dedicating 500+ points to kill off one 165 point tank. Rhinos have to dump their passengers if they want to make a melta sprint to the Demo.

This is why the Demo is the most versatile Russ; it's such a threat that your opponent can't ignore it on the off chance that it gets lucky, and it's got enough armor that he's got to dedicate full squads of 200+ point units to wipe out a single damned 165 point tank. Its psychological factor has as much in-game impact as its actual shooting.

My favorite, though, is the kitted out plasma Executioner. I was averaging more than 20 MEQ kills per game pretty easily.

I play Marines too. And if I ever let my opponent's plasma cannons get 20+ kills per game I deserve to lose. If I'm the one doing 20+ kills, I'm smart enough to understand it's my opponent making mistakes rather than the strength of the Executioner Russ.

How nice it must be to be the only Marine player whose rhinos never explode, ever! If you build your army around feeding the Executioner kills then it's pretty easy to rack up 20+ Tacticals per game. I know, because I did it quite regularly. Aside from just having Land Raiders, the only ways to keep your opponent from mauling MEQs is to 1. destroy the Russ, which is hard in and off itself; 2. just not be in rhinos, or never let your rhinos explode, ever; or 3. spread out in cover and simply be stuck for the majority of turns. A properly equipped Executioner with a Wound Buddy is 450 points of dedicated anti-MEQ; it should be blowing Marines to pieces. If it isn't, you are indeed actually doing something very wrong.

*cough* marklights = no cover *cough* str 10 ap 1 twinlinked rail guns *cough* =-? personally, demo is good at getting shot..if your taking it to get shot so other things dont mission accomplished..otherwise..its fairly epic fail

TopC wrote:*cough* marklights = no cover *cough* str 10 ap 1 twinlinked rail guns *cough* =-? personally, demo is good at getting shot..if your taking it to get shot so other things dont mission accomplished..otherwise..its fairly epic fail

so because of twinlinked rail guns i shouldn't run a Demolisher? hell with that train of thought why bother playing?

*cough* marklights = no cover *cough* str 10 ap 1 twinlinked rail guns *cough* =-? personally, demo is good at getting shot..if your taking it to get shot so other things dont mission accomplished..otherwise..its fairly epic fail

That's not really fair to say. Guard are the one army who can choke even tau with hard targets. Consider that it takes on average about 3 TL BS5 railgun shots to guarantee a kill on an armor 14 target in a squadron.

Do I consider that an effective fire magnet? Well... yes. 240 points of your railguns + ~60-90 in pathfinders vs my 165 point demolisher? That's not a bad trade at all.

Even if you kill it in the first round the whole point is it will hurt you a lot more to let it live than it will hurt me to let it die. Make sense? It forces you into making a choice you don't necessarily want to make - shoot for the easy targets and bend over for some S10 AP2 lovin, or potentially not make a kill at all?

Personally - I like the Exterminator with plasma cannon sponsons and HHB. It munches heavy infantry and transport vehicles without breaking the bank. The twin-linked autocannon rarely miss and the plasma blasts will land somewhere. For extra craziness - I like flanking Demolishers with Multi-melta sponsons and HHF.

grankobot wrote:

*cough* marklights = no cover *cough* str 10 ap 1 twinlinked rail guns *cough* =-? personally, demo is good at getting shot..if your taking it to get shot so other things dont mission accomplished..otherwise..its fairly epic fail

That's not really fair to say. Guard are the one army who can choke even tau with hard targets. Consider that it takes on average about 3 TL BS5 railgun shots to guarantee a kill on an armor 14 target in a squadron.

Do I consider that an effective fire magnet? Well... yes. 240 points of your railguns + ~60-90 in pathfinders vs my 165 point demolisher? That's not a bad trade at all.

Even if you kill it in the first round the whole point is it will hurt you a lot more to let it live than it will hurt me to let it die. Make sense? It forces you into making a choice you don't necessarily want to make - shoot for the easy targets and bend over for some S10 AP2 lovin, or potentially not make a kill at all?

'

apparently you didnt read the rest of that post, if its your purpose to draw fire it works. if your purpose is to get kills w/ it someone who is smart w/ target priorities will know that an unable to shoot result for 1 round is just fine if it lets your other AV weapons shoot at other targets and possibly kill/make them unable to shoot. >.< pitty the people who actually think you have to kill something to counter it

Ivan wrote:
I play Marines too. And if I ever let my opponent's plasma cannons get 20+ kills per game I deserve to lose. If I'm the one doing 20+ kills, I'm smart enough to understand it's my opponent making mistakes rather than the strength of the Executioner Russ.

NOT TRUE IT IS JUST THE AWESOMENESS OF THE EXECUTIONER


regardless of what mistakes were made no other LR would confidently give you that kind of return

i used it alot my self and founf that it does indeed kick serious ass


at the moment tho i am using LR EX with hull HB and LRBT with hull HB and plasma sponsons and i find that these both work great and at 190 pts each i am not desperately worried if i lose one over the other

grankobot wrote:

Everything else - no thanks. What do you get from the other variants? They're best used at long range. If you want artillery to sit on the other side of the board, why are you buying a model with 14/13/10 armor? They don't draw firepower because they aren't threatening, so that armor is wasted.... There are more efficient ways to get your fire support without wasting one of the leman russ' most useful attributes.

With all due respect, I don't really get this. How is having a battle cannon pointed at you that you can't shoot back at not threatening? You have to go and get it, and if you get there, its some of the toughest armour in the game. Not to mention it can move and fire, making going and getting it even harder. My opponents usually aren't laughing when I roll the scatter dice for any of my cannons. Maybe after, but not before.

I prefer an Executioner (w/ Plasma sponsons and HHF) playing in concert with a Demolisher (w/ Plasma sponsons and HHF).

Throwing around several plasma blast markers is fun. Putting down the big plate from the Demolisher when the opponent moves forward to take them out is hilarious.
Should the opponent Deepstrike/Ambush or the like the HHFs are golden with the enemy models buched up (from Deepstriking or eating a sacrificial Chimera).

murdog wrote:

grankobot wrote:

Everything else - no thanks. What do you get from the other variants? They're best used at long range. If you want artillery to sit on the other side of the board, why are you buying a model with 14/13/10 armor? They don't draw firepower because they aren't threatening, so that armor is wasted.... There are more efficient ways to get your fire support without wasting one of the leman russ' most useful attributes.

With all due respect, I don't really get this. How is having a battle cannon pointed at you that you can't shoot back at not threatening? You have to go and get it, and if you get there, its some of the toughest armour in the game. Not to mention it can move and fire, making going and getting it even harder. My opponents usually aren't laughing when I roll the scatter dice for any of my cannons. Maybe after, but not before.

It's not threatening because... it's not. One strength 8 AP 3 blast just isn't scary to enough targets. It's not high enough strength to be dangerous to enough vehicles, it's not high enough AP to make the AP actually matter (you turn my 3+ armor into a 4+ cover? oh noes).

It's very rare that a battlecannon will be the most dangerous gun in an IG army, and it's definitely not the easiest to put down, so there's no reason to start shooting there. Demolishers are better because they're more dangerous to a wider range of opponents, and there's only one standard deployment (dawn of war) where they can't either force your opponent back into his deployment zone (assuming he doesn't want a face full of strength 10 on turn 1) or deploy forward enough that their shorter range isn't an issue.

The demolisher is better against two targets, TEQ and vehicles. It pays for this with a severe reduction in range and a slight add-on to cost (but that is probably to cover improved rear armour) - it is not good vs MC's (as somebody claimed earlier)

The russ will get much more shots in a game, and as such, it's moderatly weaker gun will have the time to kill much more than the demolisher. If you want a more destructive russ, give it plasma sponsons, and suddenly, you have a cheap exterminator.

You say that most units are in cover, and that is true, but it is probably also true for the demolisher - you pop a rhino and place your blast on them - they are in cover in the wreck.

I like the normal russ and the exterminator. The normal russ can go naked or with plasma and do awesome. I've racked up 20+ MEQ kills with plasma MBT in a game too, for 40 pts less than the exterminator. The naked russ can stay at extreme range, and will probably not be killed.

The demolisher is decent, but the short range really is an issue. I've run 3x vindicator many times, and although not the exact same thing, the weapon is the same, and they rarely kill much - the weapon is not awesome enough to make up for the bad range.

Illumini wrote:The demolisher is better against two targets, TEQ and vehicles.

And Thunderwulf Cavalry, Warbosses, Walkers, partially off-vehicle scatters on Rhinos and anything AV10, T7-8 targets....not to mention that about half the units in the game now are vehicles, so being better at killing "this target" is actually opening up about 50% of your opponent's board for viable target selection.

I don't know how S10 suddenly became a marginal upgrade.

The russ will get much more shots in a game, and as such, it's moderatly weaker gun will have the time to kill much more than the demolisher. If you want a more destructive russ, give it plasma sponsons, and suddenly, you have a cheap exterminator.

I dispute this. Range does help protect you, but just about every army now has some way to get onto a flank and start pinging artillery lobbers. If you have a tank that's just firing away with impunity for five turns, it's because your opponent doesn't prioritize it as a threat, not because it's playing free safety.

I think this will be especially evident when the Tyranid codex is released and suddenly Monstrous Creatures and furious charging gaunts are absolutely everywhere. The Demo can ignore the swarm of little bugs bouncing off of rear armor 11 while it pancakes mycetic spores and warriors. The LRBT is going to be glanced into submission until a bunch of flamers rescue it from the swarm.

And T5 units yes, I don't think it does much good vs T7-8, as that is reserved for MC's (to my knowlegde), and it blows against those.

If you want a tank that pops tanks, you don't take the demolisher, you take the manticore or medusa. The demolisher CAN take on tanks, but the crappy range means it will probably get 1-2 shots in a game, while the manticore easily gets to place 6-8 templates. I just don't think any russ is effective in taking down tanks, as artillery and melta does it so much better. IMO, russes are still anti-infantry, that can be used to take on light tanks if you need them to.

And I agree that it lives longer because it isn't prioritized as much, but that doesn't change the fact that it gets more turns to do damage, and that it will probably get more kills in the end. Also, long range anti-tank usually struggles vs AV14, and outflankers are easy to avoid. Rear 11 is nice, but if you want it, I would go with exterminator.

And warriors are T4 in the new version too, right? If so, then the battlecannon can pancake them just as well, and from a longer range as well.

sourclams wrote:

Illumini wrote:The demolisher is better against two targets, TEQ and vehicles.

I think this will be especially evident when the Tyranid codex is released and suddenly Monstrous Creatures and furious charging gaunts are absolutely everywhere. The Demo can ignore the swarm of little bugs bouncing off of rear armor 11 while it pancakes mycetic spores and warriors. The LRBT is going to be glanced into submission until a bunch of flamers rescue it from the swarm.

This is where my problem lies, as there were no bug players at my old tourny circuit. I am expecting to see tons of tyranids at any tournament in northern virginia.

The easiest solution is to field hellhounds as fast attack choices, but this could get costly in points. Last resort, I could always chop the lascannons off my LRBTs and replace them with heavy flamers.

Illumini wrote:
The demolisher CAN take on tanks, but the crappy range means it will probably get 1-2 shots in a game

Okay, 2/3 of the mission deployments start you out between 24-30" away from your opponent. That means that on turn 1, the Demolisher is fully within range of something unless your opponent is really making an effort to hug his back field.

I don't know why you keep saying 24" move-and-shoot is crappy range. I played a game just last night where my Demolisher fired every single turn.

And warriors are T4 in the new version too, right? If so, then the battlecannon can pancake them just as well, and from a longer range as well.

Rear armor 10 makes you vulnerable to being glanced into inaction by 80 points worth of Furious-Charge Hormagaunts.

If you can't shoot, you're just a 150 point paperweight.

The range is bad because it puts the tank in range of all the short range stuff that is made to take out heavy tanks, like melta-variants, lance weaponry, powerfists etc. This combined with its greater threat-priority (because of the heavy gun and in-your-face attitude) means it will often get 1 or 2 shots off before it is taken out.

I don't have much knowledge of the new nids codex, but I'm guessing that those gaunts will have to either: run over the field, pod or outflank. That means they have to be in the open for at least one turn (maybe they can get an outflank charge). Guard has no problems packing heavy flamers etc, so I guess the small bugs won't be that much of an issue for guard, and they will at least die after they have charged that russ.

Not saying that the demolisher has no use, but IMO, it is not better than the MBT or executioner.

But it's also fallacious to think that those weapons would not be targeting/shooting at something else if the Demo turned into a MBT a further 12" away.

I would rather have my opponent dumping the aforementioned weapons into my Demolisher because it has a greater chance of weathering more fire and it means they're not cracking open all my Chimeras.

It looks like we're trying to argue about whether a LRBT is better than a Demolisher but I'm not sure thats a fair thing to do.
Realistically the debate is between range vs pure firepower but I feel like we're artificially enlarging the gap between the two.
72" vs 24" is a big difference on paper until you realize that most games are played in the shorter ranges. So what we're really debating is whether or not you want a long range gun platform to lob shells from turn 1 from behind your lines (LRBT) or do you want a linebreaker take to take point and be the tip of your spreadhead (Demolisher).

Battle Cannon vs Demolisher is again a situational thing. The BC is a good multi-purpose weapon and the Demolisher is a great multi-purpose weapon. The difference in range makes up for the difference in firepower.

I think I'd be tempted to take 1 of each before I took 2 of one. There is enough overlap between the two that for many battles, they will do the same job.

Demolishers work well with mech vets, since in mech vet lists, there is a lot of threatening vehicles at close range that is mutually supporting while the opponent suffers from saturation of not having enough meltaguns and fist units stuffed in a small area. The Chimeras can block easy assault on the Russ if the situation demands, and even if they get a chance to kill the Russ they'd get countered with a bunch of melta plasma and flamer hits next.

I don't think it works in standoff type lists since it gets unsupported in that case. Longer ranged Russes have the advantage of being able to pick targets as well. Of course, demolisher cannons can kill anything but sometimes there is fragile yet critical units that needs to be killed at long range. The problem with target selection is you can do most of the same thing with artillery vehicles hiding behind a demolisher/chimera wall if you are taking them already. I guess long range leman makes sense if it is the few vehicles you are taking in a infantry heavy list that uses stand off tactics.

Every game I've played the standard Russ MBT has been superb. Depending on my list I either have them with just a lascannon or 3x heavy bolters. The las and HB sponson option to me gives the russ an identity crisis. I don't feel it is an efficient use of points in a game where you can't split your fire. I have run the MBT in pairs in games of 1750 and up on occasion and they still perform well. I haven't found the squadron rules to be a hindrance as IG can have so many threats on the board that they are often not the most immediate threat and do not draw heavy fire.

I am in the pro demolisher camp. Yes it puts itself closer to meltas and dangerous close combat troops. However those troops often are coming closer to you anyway, as they need to be in your face to you to do what their intended job is. The exception would be a counter attack/assault unit in a gunline army in a game of kill points. It becomes a game of maneuvering between you and your opponent. When you move your Demolisher forward are you able to support it with your own units to counter what your opponent sends your way? If your opponent sends something against the demolisher, guard by their very nature will have 2-3 more units to respond to that threat. Your opponent naturally has more units as well, but again, it comes down to who makes better use of those units. Lastly in a game where objectives are generally 2/3 of the missions, any resources directed away from my troops in chimeras is a good thing.

Comparing the Demolisher with the MBT I think is of limited use. They fill different roles and can both perform their role well. I don't find myself choosing between the two to fill a heavy slot. Its more often a choice between a Demolisher and say, a Manticore or Executioner.