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What do you think is the best Leman Russ configuration? Should it be used in a squadron or as a single vehicle?

I personally favor the standard leman Russ Battle Tank in a squadron of 3. I know alot of people disagree, but I use the lascannon front gun and heavy bolter sponsons on all of them. I just love the battle cannons ability to puntch holes in the enemy and the heavy bolter's ability to clean up the rest. I've also lput a heavy stubber on my lead tank and i'm considering outfitting the rest with one.


I just wanted to get several opinions on these tanks. I'm very glad that GW gave us more that 2.

Define "best". For what role?

For me, my role was versatility. Yours could be anti-infantry or anti armor, or some other role that you identify.

I feel as if 3 Leman russ battle taks with heavy bolters can sufficiently deal with most opponents in 40k. I also think shooting 3 saucer plate sized blasts at your enemy can really make him fear your russes(sometimes more than they should). This can give you plenty of time to dig your infantry into cover and direct orders from their command squads accordingly.

at face value this question is just about unanswerable. Without knowing some additional information it's impossible to compare the various configurations because some do things better than other at a different point cost.

that said, here's some food for thought.

Overall, I feel the Executioner is the best tank, with plasma cannon sponsons and a hull HB. Aside from enemy heavy armor, it dominated things. However, its very, very expensive. Catch a squad of anything in the open and there dead. Go for a squad in cover and you'll probably gut it. Up against hordes you'll make a dent, but at a high price. It's longer range with higher rear armor just make it a great tank.

It's tough to beat the Main Battle Tank, however. I never use it with a hull lascannon, as its role is primary anti infantry, then enemy transports. I don't use it to shot tanks too often.

But in the end, the great thing about the new IG codex is that you can use all the tanks to fill different holes in your lists. My local meta is seeing the Pas-quisher as the army's long range AT as the lascannon is out of style for infantry.

To your last point regarding squadrons or not, the only time I put them together is if I need the heavy slots, which I often do. I've been putting two MBTs together and sitting them in the back. Aside from that, I would always run them separately. "free" extra armour is definitely not worth immoblized=wrecked *and* the ability to split fire. (which, I think they should have given Pask as an ability, a target lock like ability)

My two favorites are
LRBT + Lascannon = long range mobile firesupport. Aim it at most anything and you'll be a threat. Its good against light/medium armor, MCs, heavy infantry. Its also nice for insta-killing T4 units.

LR Demolisher + Lascannon = short range anti-tank. Aim this guy at AV13+ or loads of Terminators.

I could see the Heavy Bolter used to save points but thats really the only benefit. IG armies seem to pack alot of mid S weapons with Chimeras and Autocannons so I don't know how useful it really is. I think of it in terms of cost savings, not effectiveness.

I leave the sponsons off all my Russ as I rarely got to use them and the points saved can be spent on more tanks. I use the demolisher cannon with a hull heavy flamer to push forward and support my vets in Chimeras or the battle cannon with a heavy bolter to hang back and support my heavy weapon gunline and command company.

my favorite for function(i.e. - I use. function for me personally) are either the Executioner or Demolisher. they're tied for first in my book. i give both Plasma sponsons and hull heavy bolter.

but for appearance, i've always had a soft spot for the FW Exterminator, with the FW Mars Alpha pattern Leman Russ and heavy bolter sponsons. i just love the way that tank looks.

Demolisher with and Inquisitor near by, no sponsons. Deepstrikerng armies and assault armies try to stay out of the 24 inch death bubble, and thats good for a shooty IG army. They are tough as nails. 2d6 and pick the highest for pens. it shuts down 2 of the top lists easy peasy.

I know the odds of hitting a target with one bs3 shot are rare, at best. However i feel as if my army packs sufficient anti infantry weaponry compared to its anti tank capabilities. 3 lascannons in a squadron aren't going to fill this void, but they certainly do help. I really tend to follow an overkill rule: An anti-infantry weapon isn't going to kill many tanks in 40k, but most anti tank weapons are going to kill infantry if they roll to hit.

Commander pask seems like a very good choice as well, i will have to look into fielding him on some of my tanks.

I also have only used one leman russ and never fielded them in squadrons. I'll have to test that out and see how it goes before I buy 3 more russes.

In the 4th edition codex, infantry fights vehicles, vehicles fight infantry.

The 5th edition codex, infantry can fight anything depending on how you build them. Vehicles can fight anything depending on what you bring. But Russes are only a subset of vehicles.

The new Guard codex (it's been months now, I wonder how much longer I'll keep thinking of it as the "new" codex) is as a whole the most versatile army list in the game. You can make a Guard army do damned near anything. As a result, unlike other codexes, you cannot look at a unit/model as a vacuum. Some armies can operate under the assumption of "put as many of the good units from the codex in your list as possible and profit" but IG is definitely not one of those armies. Some people, particularly people who joined the Guard after the new codex came out, have a hard time understanding that concept. Nothing wrong with that. The Guard is always glad to have new recruits. But you do have to think about army design differently.

I'm in the middle of watching a movie so I'll ramble more later. Hopefully not in too irritating and/or condescending a manner.

I have seen the difference from 4th to 5th in terms of versatility with units, especially in the IG codex.

I remember when apocolypse came out, and the Leman Russ squadron was seen again that may people would not fit 2/3 of their tanks with sponsons. Now, I've heard many people say that not fitting a leman russ with sponsons is just a waste of points in general.

I personally feel as if buying sponsons for my tanks aren't going to break my list. I also feel as if theyre more effective at killing targets than some of the infantry squads I have at the same ammount of points.

The versatility of the Leman Russ puts it in a class of it's own, imo. The hull/sponson options mean it can be set up to do any job respectably well. So can the LRD, but it's cannon is more specialized. For balanced lists I prefer the versatility of these two for my armour, although I think the other varients can be just as useful, depending on the rest of the list, or known metafactors in the gaming environment.

My favorite is the LRD with hull LC/PC sponsons (though not at low pts). If it's sitting still that's alot of heavy dakka. Starts poking at 48" inches, adding the two small (but heavy) blasts at 36", and at 24" the Demolisher Cannon starts earning it's name. In general for all tanks, the higher the points, the more I beef it. If we're talking Apoc I'll have alot of other tanks on the field, and the LRD in question has pretty much got every upgrade plus Pask (he makes the weapon set up of this beast just awesome). That's right, 300pts+. No matter what pt lvl, it's usually the main target of the enemy.

The mobility of the Cannons given Lumbering Bohemeth is a serious component of its value. The range of the DC is effectively 31-36", and can put out ordnance + plasma cannon while moving 6". That's effectively 30/42" range on those weapons. It's also nice for deployment, so I can hide and then move and fire...

Some things to keep in mind about versatility... Versatility is good, sure. There are two ways to achieve versatility.

1> Every unit is capable (albeit less than optimal) of anti-infantry AND anti-tank. The problem is, GW has generally failed to balance versatile weapons vs their effectiveness vs their point value. Missile Launchers are a prime example of this. So you wind up with an army that muddles along averagely (is that a word?) at everything but wont stop an enemy army that is heavily focused in one spectrum. A specialized enemy will overwhelm you in one way and roll you up real nastylike (is that a word?).

2> The other way to get versatility is to run some of your units as murderously good at anti-infantry... others as murderously good at anti-tank. Then find an appropriate balance between the two. It requires better army building skills to get versatility the second method... but is MUCH more effective once you master the habit.

So about Russes...

Dont think of them purely in "what weapon does it have" terms. During army design, think in terms of weapon range and role.

A Russ at 24" from the enemy is often dead. Transport + move + shoot + melta = dead. Jump infantry 12" + 6" assault + krak grenades vs rear armor 10/11 = dead. Upfield = swarmed = dead. Lumbering Behemoth means most of the times your opponent hist on 4+ in assault = dead.

So again, it's all about army build. Demolishers are mean and ugly but do not combo well with a gunline/blob army that will have less other stuff upfield to distract from the Demolisher. Mechvets, with 4-6 Chimeras running upfield too, the Demolisher will do better. Punisher is anti-infantry but same concept due to it's short range. But you run into the issue of... if I'm going to be swarming upfield, why not ditch the Demolishter/Punisher for a Hellhound/Devil Dog, another Chimera full of veterans, a Valkyrie variant, etc, which are cheaper, just as effective, and often do a specialized job better?

Longer ranged Russ variants combo better with gunline/blob. Most armies have a VERY hard time dealing with armor 14 at long range. Particularly given 5th edition making Meltas (rightfully so!) so commonplace as the only reliable way to kill tough vehicles. If the arm14 vanilla Russ, Vanquisher, Executioner, etc is guarded behind a blob squad, they become VERY difficult to take down and get more turns of shooting, which means more time to make use of the expensive guns. Just watch out for crap like Space Wolf Scouts and those Ork assclowns who come in on your back table edge. But those are easily defended against if you have enough sense to ask them before the game begins if they're running them.

More later, back to the movie.

Ivan, your points on versatility are well said and I could not agree with any more.

I doo feel as in some russ varients(the exterminator and the one with the gatling gun in perticular) are one sided machines for the most part.

brother_zach wrote:I know the odds of hitting a target with one bs3 shot are rare, at best. However i feel as if my army packs sufficient anti infantry weaponry compared to its anti tank capabilities. 3 lascannons in a squadron aren't going to fill this void, but they certainly do help.

I think people overestimate how bad BS3 is. Its a 50/50 hit. That means you fire 2 shots, chances are atleast 1 will hit, thats not that bad considering how much cheaper certain weapons (like Lascannons) are for IG.

I have the same logic, you give me 2 pie plates and 2 Lascannons and chances are that 1 of each will hit the target. I can live with those kinds of odds.

minigun762 wrote:

brother_zach wrote:I know the odds of hitting a target with one bs3 shot are rare, at best. However i feel as if my army packs sufficient anti infantry weaponry compared to its anti tank capabilities. 3 lascannons in a squadron aren't going to fill this void, but they certainly do help.

I think people overestimate how bad BS3 is. Its a 50/50 hit. That means you fire 2 shots, chances are atleast 1 will hit, thats not that bad considering how much cheaper certain weapons (like Lascannons) are for IG.

I have the same logic, you give me 2 pie plates and 2 Lascannons and chances are that 1 of each will hit the target. I can live with those kinds of odds.

BS3 isn't horrible, but when compared to the marine and chaos army that were ran at my old gaming store, you really realize that theres a difference between the two. That's probaly where I picked up my bad habbit of always wanting more chances to hit something.

BS3 on a scattering pieplate are totally different odds than BS3 on something (*cough*Vanquisher*cough*) that fires directly.



So we've established that what Russes you use depends on several factors. To my mind, those are:

1> Playing hardcore/tournament/A-list or casual/it's cool/B-list. Neither is inherantly better to my mind. Hell, I love Ogryn, vanilla Russes, and Storm Troopers. Doesnt mean I'd bring them to a tournament.

2> What sort of army are you running other than the Russes? Because the rest of the codex is versatile. The Russ is relatively versatile, although as a whole definitely leaning toward anti-infantry more than anti-tank. Do you want to build the Russes first, then the rest of the army around it... or the rest of the army first with the Russes around it?

3> Is your army a stand-off army where you want to keep them away from you... or a "surprise, Guard is rushing YOU!" army? Admittedly, given the popularity of Mechvets these days, it might not be much of a surprise to your opponent to have IG stuff advancing toward HIM.

Interesting perspectives. I always feel as if my IG (so far) are a typical gunline kinda army. That is, infantry squads that try to dig in and shoot at the enemy for a bit before charging them if they last. Units such as tanks and specialized infantry (my vets and future storm troopers) try to pinch the opponet on their sides.

My guard army are still in the works, so far I can only bring 1000 points

A Command Squad with advisors.
A platoon of infantry of 4 squads, all with heavy and special weapons.
A veteran squad with grenade launches and carapace armor
A Valk (usually carries my vets into the flanks of my enemy)
a single senital
My one leman russ that is currently finished.

The russ's basic role is to bring some bigger guns (be them anti infantry or armor) to the enemy as my advance for cover. With such a small and limited list, my russ needs to be able to assume any role needed as the battle plays out.

See, I'm not sure all of your concepts are sound. Please understand I'm not trying to criticize you. I'm giving advice that is somewhat cynical, since I assume you want hardcore advice, since you can always tone that sort of thing down to more casual games. WHereas if I gave you casual advice, it's hard to upgrade to competitive. Please dont run competitive stuff if your opponent is looking for a fun game on a Thursday night.

The whole idea of advancing does not apply to Imperial Guard normally. What with? Nothing whatsoever in the IG army list (except perhaps - and only slightly perhaps - allied Grey Knights) stand a chance on foot. Imperial Guard belongs in cover, in a Chimera, or on a suicide mission where they'll get one round of shooting - kill their point value - then die. Regular line squads have no business not being in a blob. A blob has no business not being in cover. Which pretty much leaves Veterans for troops choices, and Veterans outside a Chimera have no business being on the table. Everyone generally accepts that advancing is lethal even for such "fragile" choices as tactical squads.

Looks like you're trying to build up a very very basic Guard army. I sympathize. I wish someone had given me cynical advice when I was in the same boat. I've got some Mortars and Missile Launchers that havent seen play in 2 years. And quite a few Lascannons that havent seen play since the new codex came out. My advice to you, as a new Guard player is to play a LOT of games. Proxy everything. Find an opponent who doesnt mind you proxying. Run things you know you like... then run things you dont think you would like. Give things more than 1 game to prove their worth. GIve them more than 5 games to prove themselves. As always in 40k, dont pay too much attention to crusty old types such as myself... but DO listen enough to proxy what they suggest for a few games. Maybe you'll like it. I spent the first year I played Guard insisting that Autocannons were a weak weapon. Now, I'm firmly entrenched in the pro-autocannon camp.

So yeah, I'm rambling. My point is, proxy. PLay fast and dirty games until it's clear who will win, then reset and play another fast game. Proxy EVERYTHING in the codex, then try again. If you run the same list twice in a row, rewrite things. All Guard players have different opinions. All Guard players are at least 50% right in their opinions.

Your advice wasn't the least bit cyinical, in fact it was very informative.

I should have mentioned that this army was started (and almost stopped) during 4th edition, in an area where tournaments were spammed with space marines and there wasn't a guard army in the circuit. Luckily, I have incorperated several autocannons along with other effective weapons that really make the difference in my guard squads.

I'm aslo not "blobbing" infantry together in hopes of winning an assult with only numbers. I am keeping them in cover shooting at a target and only moving them when I know I can find better cover or if I know that squad of guardsmen can win an assult. Quite often, my guard never see the open ground, as one could expect.

With what I have, I feel as if most of it is working in positive directions. The biggest issue i am having is the infantry itself, as i am still getting used to the order system and its effectiveness in certain scenarios.

This is and was the reason I went with the plain jain leman russ, as it was only 1 of 2 options guard playes had at the time. I have found that it has worked quite well with the new codex, but I will not deny that I may outgrow it for something else.

Good, you seem to have a decent head on your shoulders. Primarily because you've wisely listened to what I have to say. That is good. But as always, form your own opinions.

You originally asked for advice on how to use Russes... and the topic is somewhat controversial. You'll get lots of opinions. I'll tell you mine since I've been thinking about their role lately myself. Others wont agree and will have opinions of their own. Proxy. Proxy bigtime, find the loadouts you like, THEN start assembling kits. I wish I'd had the sense to proxy them more before assembling.

Russes, ultimately, can do anti-infantry (light), anti-infantry (heavy), or anti-vehicle, depending on specialized loadouts.

(This section heavily dependant upon my opinion): Even the best loadout is going to be sub-optimal for fighting vehicles. The only real option for anti-vehicle is either:

1> Vanquisher. The only options on the vanquisher worth having are for a specialist anti-tank vehicle - which is what it is! A hull lascannon. So it can move, shoot the cannon, and shoot the lascannon. Presumably the Vanquisher is going to be protected in your rear area so sometimes it's worth having a Hunter Killer Missile too. No move and fire all three. If you run Pask too (he isnt cheap!) you've got S9+2d6, S10 from the Lascannon, S9 from the HKM. It's a lot of points. Lots of people like Pask in Vanquishers. I like him in a Vanquisher for fluffy games. It's totally not worth it's points. Meltas kill vehicles effectively. Vanquishers kill them ocassionally, dramatically, for fluff purposes.

2> Demolisher + whatever loadout. Lots of people have lots of opinions on the Demolisher. Most of those opionions involve sponson multi-meltas, a hull lascannon, and get rapidly expensive while being close-ranged loadouts. Close range = death in 5th. If I was going to run a Demolisher rush army, I'd run a cheap Demolisher. Cheap as in, the basic equipment and nothing else. Demolisher loadouts, however, are more versatile in that they can really crush both vehicles and infantry with that S10 pieplate. But then, the anti-vehicle portion of that is heavily dependant upon not scattering very much.

More on anti-infantry (light and heavy) later. Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers is on. I've seen it 87 times, but never as drunk as I am right now. Woo!

I couldn't agree more with demolishers, if I ran them I would run them dirt cheap. Overall I'm just not that comfortable getting a big tank that close to a unit before it will fire its main gun. If it works for some people more power too them, I'm just not very confident in that strategy.

Interesting point on hunter killer missles. i used to put them on everything in my space marine army during 3rd and 4th edition. These beliefs have carried over into my guard army as well. Ivan, have you had great sucess with the HK missle? That is, is it effective for the points cost?

My favourite Leman Russ build is the Exterminator with Pask and a Lascannon sponson. For 10 points less that tank puts out fire statistically equal to (or better on higher armored targets) than three Hydra Flak Tanks, with increased durability to boot.

Outside of that, I like Leman Russ Battle Tanks plain. Cheap, rugged and you can swamp the enemy with them.

For sheer versatility it's hard to beat the Demolisher. S10 ordnance can deal with anything, and a 24" range isn't necessarily short when you have AV14/13/11.

My favorite, though, is the kitted out plasma Executioner. I was averaging more than 20 MEQ kills per game pretty easily.

sourclams wrote:For sheer versatility it's hard to beat the Demolisher. S10 ordnance can deal with anything, and a 24" range isn't necessarily short when you have AV14/13/11.

I'd argue the reverse, which is why I'm wary of the Demolisher. What is the only coventional weapon that can threaten AV14? Melta. 48" is sufficient room to keep them off of you, while 24" is not.

In my mind, what makes an effective leman russ build is one that takes advantage of its armor. Armies are often made or broken by their ability to deal with armor 14. With that in mind, if "ignore it" is an option for dealing with it, what good is it to you? See: monolith vs land raider. Monoliths you can ignore, which makes them not-so-amazing. Land raiders often can't be ignored, which makes them definitely amazing.

That said, a good LR will capitalize on this strength and force your opponent to send some shots at the toughest armor in the game.

There are only 2 configurations I'd run (with some minor variance) if I was going to use anything on a Leman Russ chassis.

Demolisher, heavy flamer - the demolisher is a very obvious choice, since it's tough and everyone is scared of it. No lascannon on these for the same reason they shouldn't go on any leman russ, too expensive for one BS3 shots. The reason why I would run these with a heavy flamer instead of a HB is because of wound allocation. You score a bunch of demolisher wounds and one or two HB wounds on a unit, guess which guys get the HB wounds? Sergeants, characters, special weapon guys, etc. By giving your opponent the option of putting less dangerous wounds on more important models you might actually wind up doing LESS damage to some targets. The heavy flamer might not ever fire, but it definitely won't ever save Meltagunner Bob from S10 AP2 death.

Executioner, heavy flamer, plasma sponsons - this is what I use when I run just one leman russ. Heavy flamer for the same reason as above. Sponsons are a matter of preference since LoS constraints mean you're often paying 40 points for just one more plasma template. This version is also a great candidate for Pask if you really want to spend just short of 300 points on one tank. 5 S8 blasts at BS4 vs monstrous creatures and vehicles? Yeah, you'll want one of these when everyone is running 5 tervigons. Makes a great addition to an army with mystics and gives the army a proper long (longer than 12" anyway) range answer to heavy infantry.

The 2 above tanks operate great at close range and armor 14 means that they probably will get their shots off unless you're playing against melta vets in valkyries or mech eldar. If you're running a squadron, always use the demolishers. They're cheap, and give you a wall-o-armor 14, meaning your squishier vehicles have mobile cover until the demolishers are dealt with. So your opponent rolls up a unit of melta dudes? So what. You've got 3 of them. The ones that survive will flatten them and move on. In short, they play to the strengths of the chassis - scary, durable, big footprint.

Everything else - no thanks. What do you get from the other variants? They're best used at long range. If you want artillery to sit on the other side of the board, why are you buying a model with 14/13/10 armor? They don't draw firepower because they aren't threatening, so that armor is wasted. 4 autocannon shots? Keep the dakka going, I'll shoot down your valkyries instead. S8 AP3? In a world where everything has a 4+ cover save? Tau are scared of that, Tyranids might be scared of that... and that's about it. Get Hydras instead, or Manticores, or Vendettas. There are more efficient ways to get your fire support without wasting one of the leman russ' most useful attributes.

If the reason why you want expensive, durable tanks is because you can't afford lots of armor 12... well, guard don't do well on the table if you don't have the cash to support them. lol

Eh, not really true. 2d6 pick the highest is not as good as 2d6/AP1, but Demolisher cannons will deal with AV14 semi-reliably while also pancaking T5/FNP/MCs/2+ armor.

24" is quite "long enough" to deal with a Land Raider, especially considering that in Pitched Battle and Spearhead deployments you can drive forward about 1" and be in range. If stopping your opponent in his deployment zone isn't far enough, then you've got more problems than simply swapping a couple units can solve.

I agree it's not the be-all best anti tank killer, but that's why it's the most versatile, not the outright UEBER-est LR chassis. Even if you don't crack the Land Raider, keeping your opponent honest by forcing him to pop smoke on first turn instead of "saving it" for when more melta will be in range is also useful.

Wooh, I should look before I leap.

Its ironic, in my list, I run two Executioners, and one demolisher, the same config. as the above mate posted.

Things to remember:

a 24" range isn't necessarily short when you have AV14/13/11.

Bad logic.

Being less than 24" away from the enemy means there is a good chance you're in range to be assaulted. Or in range for theit transport to move/unload/fire meltas. Meltas dont care much that you're armor 14.

Vs melee... The Demolisher, being closer to the enemy to make use of it's awesome (but 24" range) gun isnt really armor 14. It's armor 11, which is what bikes, jump troops, surviving targets, etc will be assaulting it at. Almost always at 4+ to hit. They dont have to destroy it with S6 Krak grenades, either. Even shutting it down for a turn, with it's large point value, and they've got the effective victory. Can be mitigated with lots of Chimeras advancing up too... but that involves designing your army totally around the build. Some like playing mechvets, some dont.

That said, if it's a Russ variant that'll be fighting midfield or upfield, it's not a bad idea to run a hull heavy flamer. Even if the cannon gets knocked out, a S5 flamer template will get tons of autohitting easy wounding burny death. And it's already close to the enemy to make use of it.

My favorite, though, is the kitted out plasma Executioner. I was averaging more than 20 MEQ kills per game pretty easily.

I play Marines too. And if I ever let my opponent's plasma cannons get 20+ kills per game I deserve to lose. If I'm the one doing 20+ kills, I'm smart enough to understand it's my opponent making mistakes rather than the strength of the Executioner Russ.