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Madgod wrote:Wow. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that GK were one of if not the worst armies around, and those who play them either have balls of steel or a suicide wish.
They are overcosted, underpowered, have terrible options, extremely limited lists and only 1 or possibly 2 even vaguely capable builds. The vast majority of their special rules have been nerfed and they have next to no anti-tank, all important in 5th Ed.

I don't get why some people here seem to say that they are happy with them as they are, and that those who say they are weak are whiners. Newsflash. They are weak! They need fixing fast!

I think what the OP means was that they need some of the kind of balance and utility of their loyalist counterparts. In the fluff a fast strike, lotsa killing and then running away works wonders. But in the fluff a single marine is worth a whole IG batallion. To be a workable army they either need to stick close to the fluff, with equivalent stats and costs or move further away from it and be slightly more mainstream and competitive. At the end of the day we play with the rules not the fluff and if GW change them they will not be the first or the last who have changed a game to be competitive, even against history and storyline.
I played GK because I loved the thought of them being the elite and winning against impossible odds in the fluff. What I soon learned is that impossible odds thing also carried over into the game. However the winning tends not to be as much.

I would certainly not say no to a little bit of rationalization and modernization for the GK. Perhaps their own codex, perhaps a combined one, but they do need an update no matter where it comes from.

QFT

So, no one else gets that they're not supposed to be an independent army but support other true armies? Anyone?

You know who needs a codex. Lost and the damned. Hell just blood pact.

Honestly you can almost sub Grey knights with the wolves dex. Just use wolf guard.

Special fighty marines are just special fighty marines.

Yes blood pact are just guard but I want some cool models not made by FW!

Justicar Alaric wrote:Does anybody else out there think that the grey knights were added to the deamonhunters codex as an after thought, because they seem to be the worst equipped space marine chapter out there.

no rhino's
no razorback's
no artillery
no heavy weapons
no chaplains, apothercaries

need i really go on

I think the Grey Knights deserve better than that. They should be more distinctive than getting the Ultramarines left overs. I think some units are appropriate, like including all landraider and dreadnought variants and chaplains. Given that I believe all GK should be able to teleport, more accurately (call it a psychic beacon), it makes light transports moot.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Also, Heavy Weapons? The last thing we need is a 'shooty' GK army.

I think heavy weapons of some sort are appropriate but only to the extent of being for taking out Daemon Engines. Daemon Engines are the very sort of thing that Grey Knights would fight, but how do they take care of them?

If you don't like the official DH codex, see if your opponent would allow you to use this fan-made GK codex. See: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=188928

NO THEY DONT

GK's are elite sm so there force does not include things such as librians or apothecaries ect. as they are not required. Medics will be attached to the force by the inquisitor in charge and the whole army are librarians basically.

A GK codex would barely have any units and would not be the same without inquisitors ect to lead the force.

The codex would be too small and even if new units were created and a huge background added it could never match up to something like the upcoming tyranid codex.

The answer is simply NO

GK's are not supposed to have to follow Inquisitors around like lost puppies they are an independent sm chapter attached to the inquisition, they still retain there own structure and command much the same as the royal marines are to the royal navy.
On many occasions they would undertake their own mission without direct inquisition support.
As such they should be able to operate with all the same equipment as a normal chapter.
It's not about giving them the ultramarines cast off it's more about elevating them to a level where they actually work in the game without having to resort to calling in the IG for a helping hand to deal with that tank on the horizon.
Surely the emperors most powerful and strongest chapter would be as well supplied as a normal vanilla chapter!

Who tells them where the deamon is?
Inquisitors.

Who do they rely on for the whole operation?
Inquisitors.

Who were they set up to be the military wing of?
That's right. The Inquisition.

True, an Inquisitor cannot command an army of GK at will, but if it really came down to it, his (or her) Inquisitorial Mandate would still hold power over them. Only the Custodes are expemt from that entirely.

You cannot stand there and tell me that the GK is not part of the Inquisition. I have to agree with insaniak. You WANT the GK to be an SM chapter of some sort, but they're NOT.

Shaman wrote:You know who needs a codex. Lost and the damned. Hell just blood pact.

Honestly you can almost sub Grey knights with the wolves dex. Just use wolf guard.

Special fighty marines are just special fighty marines.

Yes blood pact are just guard but I want some cool models not made by FW!

Quoted for truth.

I have a full GK army. I have a huge inquisition army AND my IG are Inquisition-based.

Even I don't think the GKs need a codex.

Personally I'd raise their power (artificer armor and relic weapons standard) and make them a single elite choice.

If you want a full GK chapter, then it's easy use the SM codex and have 3 squads of Honor Guard to go with the tac and other marines.

Call them Silver Knights or something.

I just think that they need to have some form of re-write simply because 1HQ option, 1Elite option, 1Troop option, 1fast attack option and 3 heavy support options isn't really a adequate list for what is a full chapter, which should be able to operate independently of inquisitorial control.
And as for them only operating under inquisitorial mandate that's not strictly true as a member of the ordo malleus's controlling body is always a GK grand master who decides when and where the chapter operates just as a chapter master decides where his chapter fights, which makes them an independent chapter which is linked to the ordo.
This is stated in the codex as well as in many of the novels produced by GW, if clarification is needed read Grey Knight by Ben Counter.

I think Grey Knights need their own list. Chaplains are appropriate and so are apothecary. Things like Librarians are redundant, especially when GK need their squad Psyker powers reworked into something similar to the Pysker Battle Squads of the IG.

Inquisitors could easily serve the role of an alternate secondary HQ choice, functioning something like the IG commander with advisors crossed with a commissar. That keeps them worthwhile but secondary.

Getting Ultramarine leftovers isn't a good solution, but a good number of units are appropriate, like having all the Land Raider and Dreadnought variants.

I also think a return to Grey Knight Terminators being the primary troop choice with Power Armor GK being bumped to the elite choice, much like scouts in Dark Angel and Blood Angel codices, will give the list a much more elite feel. Power armored GK in the elite would probably just have teleport for standard.

Since just gaining a transport or ability to teleport doesn't really make for a unique unit the gaping whole as far as the type of units needed most is the fast attack choices. Good luck coming up with units that GK should have but aren't justifiable in a standard Marine army.

I also think a return to Grey Knight Terminators being the primary troop choice with Power Armor GK being bumped to the elite choice

Because we all know that makes sense.

Grey Knight terminators used to be the only Grey Knights. I never thought power armored Grey Knights made sense unless they were being used in a role where more rapid movement was necessary, a role similar to scouts. Grey Knights are suppose to be an elite task force fighting an enemy that can rip a normal marine in half relatively easily. Given that and the high mortality of neophytes in their chapter the liberal use of terminator armor is appropriate.

OMG. read all of this. This sickens me. I have 2 grey knight squads. And my brother has 30 grey knights.
They really do suck and they are suppose to be like Adeptus Custodes but apparently not they just suck now with the fifth edition.

GK Termies as troops? Nah, can't go along with that. Especially since termie armor is supposed to be a rare commodity, regardless of SM chapter. I do think the power armor troops should have artificer armor. That would be more appropriate I think.

The Grey Knights are a 3000 marine strong chapter with disproportionately more terminator armor than other chapters. How is it much different to field six 5-man terminator squads as opposed to three 10-man terminator squads? Besides how often would that actually happen?

Wait, where are you getting these numbers from?

I disagree. I just think GK need a new codex. IMO they deserve one first. They don't have the most out of date codex but they do have the most underpowered.

GK easily fit in with daemon hunters because they use a lot of the same methods and equipment. They should not become just another SM chapter. Leave out artilery and give them the ability to call in orbital borbardment ( I know they already have this but they could make it much more useful like being able to change target each turn) or anti tank psycic powers. They work very different from other SM, they teleport in, kill everyone, teleport out.

The argument they fight daemons so don't need anti tank is pointless, an army needs to be able to win against more than one army.

Playing GK as SW wolfguard army doesn't really work that well either as GK are not a super elite CC army. GKs are meant to be a super elite at everything army. To work they desperately need their own special rules.

aka_mythos wrote:The Grey Knights are a 3000 marine strong chapter with disproportionately more terminator armor than other chapters. How is it much different to field six 5-man terminator squads as opposed to three 10-man terminator squads? Besides how often would that actually happen?

So then why did they need to pull Terminator suits from 6 other chapters just to field a few hundred?

Just because GK like their termie armor doesn't mean they're rolling in it, and either way, Terminators as their only troop choice is horribly unbalanced, and power armor as an elites choice makes no sense fluff or balance wise. The DA and the SW have to paying to bring in an IC to make terminators troops, and both their terminators are rather pricy if IRC. Terminator armor as a default troop choice is horribly overpowered game wise and senseless fluff wise.

That fluff comes from the Index Astartes articles a number of years back.

When did they pull terminator suits from 6 other chapters? Not knowing where that comes from I can only assume it was it to deal with losses. The fact that they can just force 6 other chapters to give up terminator armor shows how they can easily be rolling in it. They effectively get to maintain their ranks by imposing a supremacy over other chapters.

The GK have more terminator armor than the entire Deathwing. If that formation works why wouldn't something similar work for an army that has a large quantity of suits? Even if GK have proportionally more terminator armor than others chapters thats 3 times as many suits and 3 times as many Deathwing styled companies.

The idea of power armored GK as elites is not ridiculous if you take the entirity of my idea into consideration. PA GK would be serving a specific function, instead of just being fodder for terminators. They would serve as forward observers and advance operators calling in the Terminators. The would get things similar to Vox and beacons.

4M2A wrote:The argument they fight daemons so don't need anti tank is pointless, an army needs to be able to win against more than one army.

Agreed. Daemonhunters would have to fight daemon engines, and that requires anti-tank.

aka_mythos wrote:When did they pull terminator suits from 6 other chapters?

I can't find where I read that. And I've been looking. I thought it was on Lexicanum somewhere but I can't seem to find it. We'll just forget that for now, at least until I can find where I got it from (unless I imagined it, wouldn't be the first time).

Regardless, if said fluff is ever found to be true, the idea they had to requisition armor from other chapters proves they're not rolling in terminator armor. Its a logistical fire storm to have to take such holy things from their chapters, and the Inquisition can't do it whenever they want. For general purposes the GK will have to make do with the suits they actually have, which still isn't enough to make terminator armor rank and file and power armor elite.

The GK have more terminator armor than the entire Deathwing. If that formation works why wouldn't something similar work for an army that has a large quantity of suits? Even if GK have proportionally more terminator armor than others chapters thats 3 times as many suits and 3 times as many Deathwing styled companies.

So? 3 times as many is at best 300 suits, and most chapters don't have enough for the entire first company. The Deathwing is a rare exception. Dark Angels still don't have Terminators as a troop choice by default. There's a reason for that. The points you have to pay to bring Belial into play is supposed to balance the all terminator death wing build. More so, Terminator armor is still elite. 300 suits for 3000 grey knights. I suck at math but that math doesn't add up either. Even for Grey Knights terminator armor is elite, and power armor is rank and file.

Yes, your idea doesn't make sense. Power armor, is mass produced. The grey knights have unlimited numbers of these suits, every space marines chapter does. Terminator armor on the other hand is rare. The means to produce it no longer exists. No one is going to deploy such a valuable resource as generic troops. The armor is also powerful in game terms. Its horribly unbalanced to allow players to load up on terminators and not pay anything to bring them other than their base points cost. Its not fluffy, and it unbalances the game.

That's all I'll say on the subject now. If you want to field nothing but terminators, play Dark Angels or Space Wolves. We don't need another army that can field nothing but termies, nor one that makes it free to do so.

LordofHats wrote:
Regardless, if said fluff is ever found to be true, the idea they had to requisition armor from other chapters proves they're not rolling in terminator armor. Its a logistical fire storm to have to take such holy things from their chapters, and the Inquisition can't do it whenever they want. For general purposes the GK will have to make do with the suits they actually have, which still isn't enough to make terminator armor rank and file and power armor elite.

See you are looking at it from the perspective that at some point they needed more terminator armor. I'm looking at it from the perspective of "before the need occured" and "after they requisitioned". In both of those instances they would have more terminator armor than the average chapter.

LordofHats wrote:

The GK have more terminator armor than the entire Deathwing. If that formation works why wouldn't something similar work for an army that has a large quantity of suits? Even if GK have proportionally more terminator armor than others chapters thats 3 times as many suits and 3 times as many Deathwing styled companies.

So? 3 times as many is at best 300 suits, and most chapters don't have enough for the entire first company. The Deathwing is a rare exception. Dark Angels still don't have Terminators as a troop choice by default. There's a reason for that. The points you have to pay to bring Belial into play is supposed to balance the all terminator death wing build. More so, Terminator armor is still elite. 300 suits for 3000 grey knights. I suck at math but that math doesn't add up either. Even for Grey Knights terminator armor is elite, and power armor is rank and file.

I'm sayin that 300 is the least number of suits they have, but that they have more. 300 to 3000 is 10% the same as Dark Angels.

The idea of a SM Chapter giving away Termie armor to the Inquisition is ridiculous. No Chapter Master in their right mind is going to give up such a prized commodity. You think Logan Grimnar would give up suits of TDA to the Inquisition? You think Lord Calgar or Lord Dante would? I think not. It is more likely that they took the TDA from chapters that were found to be heretical or genetically deviant.

I think this is getting off the point slightly, GK terminators shoul not be a troops choice! Even if they have a larger number of suits than a normal chapter the fact remains that they would be held back in reserve for more important engagements.

Besides TDA is that rare and important it would not just be handed over from other chapters, and GK armour is different in design and construction from normal TDA.

The point I was trying to make is the GK are seriously under powered on the table, making them almost impossible to use effectively as a stand alone army in 5th edition. (they can't even fight daemon armies effectively any more)

The problem is the fact that they get massacred at long range now because they just don't have the ability to close with the enemy fast enough.

All true, but a pure Grey Knight force was also disadvantaged in 4th edition too.

GK need:
- Make teleport attack an option for troop choices. Without making them a Fast Attack unit.
- Access to combi-weapons (combi-incinerator/psycannon would be nice to see) and power fists.
- Artificier armor as standard on PAGK
- Keep true grit
- Change Shrouding so that gives them a 6+ cover save and improves their cover save by +1 if in cover.
- Fix Daemonic Infestation (but how?)
- Orbital Bombardment should be the same as IG codex, and GM should have access to it.
- Vehicle options and special rules in the DH codex need to be updated to match the current ones.

I think that would be a good start. Just to get them back to the same disadvantage they had in 4th.

LordofHats wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:The Grey Knights are a 3000 marine strong chapter with disproportionately more terminator armor than other chapters. How is it much different to field six 5-man terminator squads as opposed to three 10-man terminator squads? Besides how often would that actually happen?

So then why did they need to pull Terminator suits from 6 other chapters just to field a few hundred?

This story is cannon. When the Grey Knights were just founded, one of their first operations was to assault a planet taken over by heretical forces. Since this was extremely early in the chapter's founding, they didn't have much of the resources they have now. As such, they had to requisition their equipment from other chapters. However, that was very soon after the Horus Heresy. Things have changed.

The Grey Knights are the best equipped warriors in the Imperium. If they need Terminator armour, they can get it.

What I'd like to see:

-Psychic powers that are actually useful
-Give the Grey Knights more access to their powers. Every Grey Knight is equivalent to a Librarian, or even more powerful. Why can only my Brother Captain and Grand Master use their powers?
-Make the Shrouding actually useful
-Make True Grit just give +1 attack to any Grey Knight with a Storm Bolter
-Make more use of teleportation. Grey Knights are known for it, so they should actually use it.

Just to clear up a point about GK psychic powers and who uses them.

1. Their powers suck end of

2. Although all GK's are psychic it is at a very low level and most of their ability is directed towards maintaining their shield of faith. Most grey knights are not powerful enough to direct an aggressive psychic force. Brother Captains channel the pyschic power of their whole squad to cast holocaust simply because they are more experienced having been elevated to their current rank, Grand Masters are in effect company commanders and as such are far more experienced in directing what powers they have and as such are able to manifest these powers without having to call on the presence of a whole squad.

3. GK's are nowhere near as powerful as SM librarians untill they have had many years to master their latent psychic abilities, if they were too powerful they would not be as effective at fighting against daemons because they would be easier to take over.

Justicar Alaric wrote:Just to clear up a point about GK psychic powers and who uses them.

1. Their powers suck end of

2. Although all GK's are psychic it is at a very low level and most of their ability is directed towards maintaining their shield of faith. Most grey knights are not powerful enough to direct an aggressive psychic force. Brother Captains channel the pyschic power of their whole squad to cast holocaust simply because they are more experienced having been elevated to their current rank, Grand Masters are in effect company commanders and as such are far more experienced in directing what powers they have and as such are able to manifest these powers without having to call on the presence of a whole squad.

3. GK's are nowhere near as powerful as SM librarians until they have had many years to master their latent psychic abilities, if they were too powerful they would not be as effective at fighting against daemons because they would be easier to take over.

Negatory.

All Grey Knights go through Librarian levels of training before they're ever permitted on a mission.
In addition, they have to undergo the same rituals that Librarians and other sanctioned Psykers go through to ensure protection against possession. And it gets better from there, given that the Aegis suits are built with Daemonic possession in mind and incorporate wards against such an occurrence.

Not to mention that every single one of them goes through specialized training to ensure that they are absolutely uncorruptable.

Justicar Alaric wrote:Just to clear up a point about GK psychic powers and who uses them.

1. Their powers suck end of

2. Although all GK's are psychic it is at a very low level and most of their ability is directed towards maintaining their shield of faith. Most grey knights are not powerful enough to direct an aggressive psychic force. Brother Captains channel the pyschic power of their whole squad to cast holocaust simply because they are more experienced having been elevated to their current rank, Grand Masters are in effect company commanders and as such are far more experienced in directing what powers they have and as such are able to manifest these powers without having to call on the presence of a whole squad.

3. GK's are nowhere near as powerful as SM librarians untill they have had many years to master their latent psychic abilities, if they were too powerful they would not be as effective at fighting against daemons because they would be easier to take over.

I think its a matter of their collective psyker power. Something similar to the Psyker battle squads of the imperial guard. Where the GK might have powers scalable to the size of the squad and its collective psyker will. It could be a power that boosts their inv. save or act like a heavy weapon of sorts or just compensate for the lack of anti-armor ability needed to bring down daemon engines by diminshing its armor.