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Does anybody else out there think that the grey knights were added to the deamonhunters codex as an after thought, because they seem to be the worst equipped space marine chapter out there.

no rhino's
no razorback's
no artillery
no heavy weapons
no chaplains, apothercaries

need i really go on

Well, I do think they should have all those nice things, but I DON'T think that they should have thier own codex. The DH's and GK's goals mesh together to seamlessly to be seperate.

Also, Heavy Weapons? The last thing we need is a 'shooty' GK army.

Yes DH and GK go together well but to suggest that Gk's don't deserve atleast one decent anti tank weapon is pure foll.
At present the only way in which to include anything likely to stop something bigger than a guardsman is to take a dread.
if something has a 3+ save then the grey knights have nno chance.
As for close combat because the units are so expensive they can be outnumbered by every other army out there. Which means they get swamped by numbers when fighting CC.

...Duh. What? You want a Horde GK army?

The Grey Knights are all about Quality over Quantity. And when it's entirely possible for 5 Termies to chase down 50 or so IG it definitely works...

The only thing that irks me is that to get said Dred (Which I feel should have more DH options than just a Psycannon) takes up one of the Elite slots, while I feel it should be in the Heavy Support. More Dred's = Less Termies...

Perhaps you'd both just prefer a new daemonhunters book?

Honestly? I rather my Grey Knights were NOT molested by GW again...

How were they mauled the first time?

it's not that they were mauled just a little hamstrung through poor options and a lack of thinking on the part of GW



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By the way GK Dreadnoughts are in the Heavy Support section of the codex. Mind you, looking on the bright side, with the codex the way it is you can make one hell of a planet strike force.

I'd consider a combined codex of Ordo Malleus and Ordo Hereticus.

you can't really combine Malleus and Hereticus the armies are too different, and besides they have different objectives, tactics and roles within the fluff of the game, and on the table top.

You mean the short-ranged shootiness of Witchhunters doesn't mesh with the shootiness and counter assault ability of the Deamonhunters?

Wait...what?

No i meant that although they are both similar in some respects the differences in role and character would make for a confusing codex.
WH don't operate in the same way as DH

They're all Inquisition. They hunt the heretic, the mutant, the traitor and the xenos. It's not like a combined Inquisitiondex cant have seperate army lists for each of the Ordos.

I think the GK's should be added as Elites choices for IG and C:SM personally. I never see them much, which I guess is because the codex they're already in (Daemonhunters?) doesn't see much use. Personally I look at the army list of GW's website and can't fathom why there are so many. The MEQ dexes could really be thinned out, the Inquisition and Daemonhunters mixed in with the IG and SM or stuck together, Daemons and Chaos Space Marines stacked together etc etc.

I just think the game might benefit more than it suffers if the codex spam was reduced. Not to mention fewer dex's means more regular updates (I'd hope).

Actually, the idea of a single 'Inquisition' Codex has some merit.

I imagine that your acess to troops would be restricted to what kind of Inquisitor you chose. And this could finnally be a chance for the Ordos Xenos to get a foot in the door.

I think inquisition in general probably does need one dex. I like the idea EF has with the different inquisitors. The problem with the current dex is everything is out of date that is pretty much it. Yes i know GKs cost a pretty penny pointswise and so does alot of the rest of the dex but it was written over ten years ago and alot of the other codices were costly and not focused on mech armies.

It isn't the Grey Knights job to sit back and shoot with heavy weapons, bombard the enemy with artillery, or lead mechanized campaigns by rhino. The grey knights teleport in, accomplish their objective, and leave. And nuke the site from orbit.
GK could use chaplains and apothecaries though. That would be pretty cool. Jump pack GK would be a nice touch too.

True that. TBH I feel that those poor DE should get a new dex before anyone else. I mean, c'mon, the poor guys are still second ed. (And then the BA )

Justicar Alaric wrote:no rhino's
no razorback's

No need for them, since they generally teleport to where they need to be from orbit.

no artillery
no heavy weapons

Not a part of their combat role. The Grey Knights are specialists, trained to fight daemons. They're not interested in knocking down fortifications... and have no need to do so when they can just teleport inside anyway.

The GL are all about getting in close and dirty. Heavy weapons and artillery just slow you down.

no chaplains, apothercaries

Whilst apothecaries would make a certain amount of sense (although again are relatively unnecessary if the wounded and the bodies of the slain can be teleported back to their strike cruiser, Chaplains don't really fit, since the Grey Knights are somewhat removed from the normal Space Marine doctrine. Some form of spiritual leader would make sense, but I would suspect that the Knights' Brother Captain, or a member of the Inquisition would better fill this role than the Chaplain.


To be honest, it sounds like you just want GK to have all of the benefits of a normal Chapter, which they're not intended to be. They're a very specialised Strike Force intended for a very specific role. The lack of options in their list reflects that very specialised doctrine.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Actually, the idea of a single 'Inquisition' Codex has some merit.

I imagine that your acess to troops would be restricted to what kind of Inquisitor you chose. And this could finnally be a chance for the Ordos Xenos to get a foot in the door.

I really like this idea, and it meshes well with the 5e philosophy of taking HQs to determine your army composition.

The idea is just to redress some of the imbalances which are present in the current codex.

I have a Grey Knights army and after many attempts to work out a workable list, I have found that it's not possible at the moment.

The grey knights lack any form of anti tank weaponry, this has become a serious problem with the codex because of the increase in the amount of these units in the game.

As for chaplains they actually appear in many of the grey knights novels which begs the question "why can't we use them in the game?".

Transports also feature in the novels as a teleport attack is not always a possibility, so they used drop pods, and considering that they can use landraiders why can't they use smaller transports.

Although teleport attacks are good for getting onto the battlefield it results in a serious lack of mobility after initial insertion. Which wouldn't be a problem if your opponent put all his units right next to each other but who is going to be that crazy!

I think you just ain't playing them right.

They have S6 power weapons that ID EW. What more do you want?

G

...and storm bolter. Plus all their special rules; such as, "the shrouding" and "True Grit".


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...and storm bolter. Plus all their special rules; such as, "the shrouding" and "True Grit".

Only justicars and above have power weapons, and the shrouding is near pointless as most weapons now have a range of 24 so you really only need to roll of 8 on 3d6, plus it doesn't work during night fighting. true grit only adds 1 attack as long as they didn't charge in that turn so doesn't really have much of an impact overallthis is all negated when fighting daemons because they get daemonic infestation

And? Grey Knights are not a CC army. Regardless of what some might think.

So...they're not a shooty army...they're not a CC army...they're not a mech army...what kind of army are they?

Mainly GKs are all about finesse and game expertise. Meaning you have to have a lot of both to continuously win with them.

They are a shooty army that can take a charge. Look at their weapons and special rules. A storm-bolter and CCW that adds +1 to str (if memory serves), true grit, and shrouding. Use the SBs to whittle at the enemy as you dance around the board staying out of charge range. Once trimmed down to a manageable level, assault or be assaulted. Doesn't really matter with true grit.

Now that is how they worked when the codex first came out. The new rulebook squashed some of their powers, but with some finesse a GK army can win. Personally, I now use GKs as allies. Once a new codex is written, I'll go back to them.

FYI, when they first came out some bloke in Australia won a GT using an all-Grey Knight force.

+2 I think. And the higher ranks have them as power weapons.

Also, I too use them as Allies. A trio of termies deepstriking can do wonders for a horde of IG.

Wow. I thought it was pretty common knowledge that GK were one of if not the worst armies around, and those who play them either have balls of steel or a suicide wish.
They are overcosted, underpowered, have terrible options, extremely limited lists and only 1 or possibly 2 even vaguely capable builds. The vast majority of their special rules have been nerfed and they have next to no anti-tank, all important in 5th Ed.

I don't get why some people here seem to say that they are happy with them as they are, and that those who say they are weak are whiners. Newsflash. They are weak! They need fixing fast!

I think what the OP means was that they need some of the kind of balance and utility of their loyalist counterparts. In the fluff a fast strike, lotsa killing and then running away works wonders. But in the fluff a single marine is worth a whole IG batallion. To be a workable army they either need to stick close to the fluff, with equivalent stats and costs or move further away from it and be slightly more mainstream and competitive. At the end of the day we play with the rules not the fluff and if GW change them they will not be the first or the last who have changed a game to be competitive, even against history and storyline.
I played GK because I loved the thought of them being the elite and winning against impossible odds in the fluff. What I soon learned is that impossible odds thing also carried over into the game. However the winning tends not to be as much.

I would certainly not say no to a little bit of rationalization and modernization for the GK. Perhaps their own codex, perhaps a combined one, but they do need an update no matter where it comes from.