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In my opinion, CSM and Plague Marines are interchangeable. Both have advantages over the other.

CSM:

-Better vs AP weapons
-Heavy weapons
-More attacks in CC and shooting
-I4 instead of 3

Plagues

-Better vs small arms fire
-2 specials below 10 men (so if you run a lord or sorc, you can go in a rhino)
-Defensive Nades

You can run an entire army of either and do well. Arguably the best troop choices in the game.


Personally, I like the offensive capabilities of CSM more.

This will be quite an overgeneralized and closed minded question, but...

If the Dust Buckets performed as well or better than cults why don't I see them more often?
I see CSM, PM, Zerker lists all over the place.
It's the Dust Buckets I rarely see...and when they do come up, they stick out like a soar thumb. (as an aside I don't see Noise Marines often too, but it's just too fun to focus just on Dust Buckets)

How serious are they in competitive environments?
Why arn't more used then?
Are there any tourneys they place high in, are they a strong showing in your area?
You dakkaites have any info on this?

CSM 256 points
10 troops
Aspiring Champion w/PF
2 melta guns
Rhino


PM 255 points
7 troops
Aspiring Champion w/PF
2 melta guns
Rhino
IoCG


On the Assault
CSM : 27 attacks, 3 PF attacks
PM : 18 attacks, 3 PF attacks

Firing
CSM : 16 bolter rapid fire, 2 MG shots
PM : 10 bolter rapid fire, 2 MG shots

Number of Bolter shots to kill squad
CSM : 90 bolter shots (1/9 chance of kill)
PM : 189 bolter shots (1/27 chance to kill)

Number of SM MG/PG/LC shots to kill squad
CSM : 18 shots to kill (5/9 chance to kill)
PM : 13 shots to kill (5/9 chance to kill)

Summary
CSM have more attacks due to more bodies. CSM attack at the same speed of SM. PM have blight grenades.
PM are nearly invulnerable to small arms fire. Both ride in rhinos so until the vehicle is cracked, this is moot.
CSM are more resilient to MG/PG/LC shots due to more bodies. PM can be assaulted by 30 orks and take 2-3 casualties.

Overall, I think it depends on the role. CSM fill a better job in offense, while PM are better on defense IMHO

* Thanks for the correction Sanctjud

Actually...Labmouse42.

7 PM, 2 Meltas, Champ + FIst, RHino is 256.
If I do CSM I would do this squad:
10 CSM, 2 Meltas, IoCG, Champ + Fist, RHino is 255.

So they are closest as possible this way.
Else, everything else the same with your post.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
10 CSM naked. vs. 10 SM.
CSM Charge and kill 10/4 SM.
SM kill 5/6.
Roughly 2 to 1.

7 PMs naked vs. 10 SM.
SM kill 5/18.
PMs Charge and kill 7/4 SM.
Roughly 1 to 0.

Combat Resolution is almost the same offensively.
True the CSM should be killing more while PMs not so much, but the chance to completely sweep the enemy (if non fearless) is the same.
So in this specific respect they are equally offensive.

Sanctjud wrote:7 PMs naked vs. 10 SM.
SM kill 5/18.
PMs Charge and kill 7/4 SM.
Roughly 1 to 0..

Does this include that the SM will strike first? I am just curious.

Good point though, that the tougher unit will lower the combat resolution loss.

I didn't really, as it was highly unlikely 10 tacticals would kill a PM.
If we take it that they do kill a plague marine, the results would actually be more akin to a draw.
That is if we overestimate for CSM and go with averages with PMs. The results would be 1 to 1.5.
But if we treat each 'equally' and round them to the next whole number it would be 1 to 2...and would yield the same resolution results.

But note: these are highly unlikely scenarios and was used to push my point about combat resolutions as a measurment of offensive abilities as opposed to just raw damage.

Sanctjud:

Are you claiming that the Plague Marines would conduct a Sweeping Advance as effectively as Chaos Space Marines? Because the former have one less point of initiative than the latter.

I don't know why I can't resist rising to defend Ksons from criticism, some sort of mental illness. The xkcd comic about someone being "Wrong on the Internet" comes to mind.

Everybody fixates on "AP3 Bolters" Ksons are bad because AP3 bolters aren't specifically great against all enemies. In truth, the Kson unit is much more defined by its awesome sarge and invulnerable save than by it's AP 3 bolters.

The unit's advantages are, in order:

Warptime Sorcerer
4+ invulnerable save
Relentless + AP 3 bolters

In SM on SM combat (of any stripe) it's the sarges who do most of the killing. The Kson sarge does better than a Pfist sarge as long as his warptime is up (3/4 to hit, 3/4 to kill = 9/16, versus 1/2 to hit, 5/6 to hit, or 5/12, in addition he doesn't lose the bolt pistol attack because a force weapon isn't a Pfist or Thunder Hammer). The fact that it's a force weapon, which he can use in the same round as he warptimes due to Mark of Tzeentch, is gravy for Fexes, Hive Tyrants, or independent characters. Then, on top of better offense, the Ksons have better defense in their 4+ save, against no save for the other cult troops.

Seriously, play some Kson games and you'll see what I mean. The Ksons AP 3 bolters usually do alright, but the real strength of the list is that you take their power weapon attacks without dying and have super sarges.

Anti-Walker is something they have a little trouble with though. A warptiming meltabomb isn't quite as good as a fist, it about makes up for the 4+ invul, leaving you tarpitting the walkers.

The unit's big weakness comes from the possibility of the enemy shutting down the sorcerer with anti-psyker stuff, which leaves them with much weakened melee ability.

You aren't mentioning cost. That wannabe sorc you're forced to take is waaay too costy.

40kenthusiast if point cost weren't an issue I'd agree with you, but if 1kSons are roughly equal across general scenarios (which to be honest I think is a generous assessment), then being by far the most expensive option for the cult troops is enough reason not to take them.

If I'm spending a premium, it needs to create equivalent return. Zerks are 20-40% more effective in CC. PMs are virtually immune to small arms fire. 1kSons are a shooting platform with a largely nullified gun that pays a premium for an ability that most other shooting units can come by naturally due to table layout and cover saves. The Invuln save just makes them less bad in combat, not more good, especially with the 5th ed preference for large squads throwing high volumes of regular attacks as opposed to minimal CC specialists throwing small[er] volumes of armor-ignoring attacks.

Sanctjud wrote:
10 CSM naked. vs. 10 SM.
CSM Charge and kill 10/4 SM.
SM kill 5/6.
Roughly 2 to 1.

7 PMs naked vs. 10 SM.
SM kill 5/18.
PMs Charge and kill 7/4 SM.
Roughly 1 to 0.

Combat Resolution is almost the same offensively.
True the CSM should be killing more while PMs not so much, but the chance to completely sweep the enemy (if non fearless) is the same.
So in this specific respect they are equally offensive.

If we're going to do it, let's do it realistically. 10 CSM charge 10 SMs:

8 Pistols = 0.88 dead marines
2 meltas = 1.12 dead marines

=2 dead before charge

27 attacks = 2.22 dead marines

8 attacks back = 0.66 dead CSM marines

3 attacks = 1.26 dead marines

Victory by 2.82

5.48 dead marines

0.66 dead CSM

----


5 pistols = 0.41 dead marines

2 meltas = 1.12 dead marines

= 1.53 dead marines

8.5 attacks back = 0.21 dead plagues

18 attacks =1.48 dead marines

3 fists = 1.26 dead marines

=victory by 2.53

4.58 dead marines.

0.21 dead plagues.

-----

Sweeping advance:

CSM - most likely -3 ld, getting over the dreaded "7" roll. Marines = 0.59 chance to run ---> 0.59 to sweep = 35% chance to sweep...but take a few percent off to compensate for -2ld. So ~33% chance to sweep.

Plagues - Split between -3 and -2ld. -3 = 0.59 chance to run. -2 = 0.48 chance to run ---> 0.48 to sweep = 23% chance (ld-2) + 28% chance (ld-3) / 2 = 25.5% chance

-----

Summary:

CSM - 5.58 killed, 0.66 dead, 33% chance to sweep

Plagues - 4.58 killed, 0.21 dead, 25.5% chance to sweep.


This is all considering no power weapons, which would put plagues at a much bigger disadvantage (currently this battle is setup to go along with plague's biggest advantage, low strength non AP weapons).

Take it as you will, but I dont see any huge advantage to plagues in this already favourable situation.

CSM win combat by 2.82 and lose 0.66 CSM.
Wouldn't that be 2.16 difference, which is closer to -2.

Plague win combat by 2.53 and lose 0.21.
Wouldn't that be 2.32 difference, which is similar to the CSM?

Or am I missing something?

Else, I will admit the CSM are looking good, but we all knew that .

The "win by" already factors in the lost CSM.

Issue is, guys, that Chaos don't always get the charge.

To properly compare this out, you should do 2 more things -

1. Have the stats for when CSM/PM get charged by a SM squad w/general upgrades.

2. Compare killyness to the next level higher (maybe Nid Warriors or something) and level lower (guardsmen) for the charge/being charged, to really see.

While receiving the charge the PMs are going to vastly outperform basic CSM.

Ok...obviously plague marines are going to win out over CSM if charged.


There are pros and cons to each unit. The example above is just a standard middle of the road situation where advantages to both have been realized. Fighting guardsmen doesnt really matter because both are going to annihilate, and fighting something with high strength/power weapons just negates the plagues abilities, so obviously more bodies will win out.

Basic summary:

CSM are better offensively, both on the charge and shooting, and better defensively against ap weaponry.

Plagues are better defensively, shrugging off small arms fire and charges.

What I've found is that over the spread of battlefield scenarios (read:everything), 10 CSM and 7 PM are basically exactly the same on average.

To compare units, you can't look at limited scenarios.
You have to look at performance over multiple games, against different opponents.