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Whats the deal with your basic CHAOS SPACE MARINE troop choice?

Anyone think its worth running them as your basic troop choice in the name of putting more and larger squads out there?

Are they just too vanilla?

I see little difference between them and the basic space marine, except they can be marked if you want to and can run odd as well as large unit sizes.

I have been thinking about running a list this way so I could get my full compliment of 6 troop choices and still have room in my points TOT for heavy support and god willing elites.

After comparing them with basic space marines(tactical squads), you may got some conclusion.

After comparing them with plague marines, you may also got some conclusion,differently.

example:


10csm pf/ch 2mg in rhino
10csm pf/ch 2mg in rhino
10csm pf/ch 2mg in rhino
10csm pf/ch 2mg in rhino

8csm pf/ch 2FL with
Chaos Sorc (Termarmor MOS / LASH)
all in a land raider

8csm pf/ch 2FL with
Chaos Sorc (Term armor MOS and LASH
all in a land raider

with three OBLITZ



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Do you think swarm mentality is just not workable with chaos?


Is sticking with the more expensive, but undeniably better units is better all around?

Should I just leave the swarming to Nids and ORK?

...All accademic of course, im just trying to get a grasp on what might be workable and what will not.

lletherboy wrote:Whats the deal with your basic CHAOS SPACE MARINE troop choice?

Anyone think its worth running them as your basic troop choice in the name of putting more and larger squads out there?

Are they just too vanilla?

I see little difference between them and the basic space marine, except they can be marked if you want to and can run odd as well as large unit sizes.

I have been thinking about running a list this way so I could get my full compliment of 6 troop choices and still have room in my points TOT for heavy support and god willing elites.

They're more versatile than Tactical Marines. You can run 2 special weapons, you can mark them, they're cheaper, and you get a bolter, bolt pistol, AND close combat weapon.

I often run with many smaller squads of regular CSM (7 men, but that is just a fluffy theme thing really - although it is relatively effective).

Because they get an extra attack in CC vs regular marines they can usually hold their own against 10 man SM squads, they are cheaper, and can take more special weapons.

Plus more squads means more potential targets for the enemy to divide his fire between, as well as giving you more things to shoot and assult with. Also, it frees up points for other things.

Moving this to tactics.

You need 10 CSM to get the second special weapon

CSM are very good basic troops, they can do both firefights and close combat and they can take plenty of punishment. You can probably run only CSM as troops and do just fine. IMO, they are better than tactical marines.

IMO, people should be clear.
Normal CSM do not get marked. They get icons that confer the mark.
A bit different.
_______________

That said:
The CSM are the best bang for points/cost you will get.

Ubergrit.
Access to fist.
Access to special weapons.
Rhino.
Ld 10 w/ rr morale w/ IoCG.
Homer w/ said Icon.
Assault Grenades.
Cheap cost.

They are the back bone, the easiest solid choice you can make in the CSM codex.

Certainly when you compare them with specialists they don't look good in a certain light, but that only means they look better at a different angle. They are the generalists in the army able to adapt to most enemy infantry and pack the special weapons to compliment or suppliment their roles.

Vs. plague marines it's a different issue.
It then becomes an issue of mainly:
-local meta weapons (the FNP denying kind).
-Model count you want achieved.

You can run a max troop FoC list.
But they do need supporting elements and in general when squads are decked out they are points hogs.
Though generalist, you'll need the raw power from Hvy support and combat muscle of HQ to make the troops work even better.

lletherboy:

It wouldn't be a good idea to put Terminator Sorcerers of Slaanesh in with those Chaos Space Marine squads, as their Terminator Armour will prevent Sweeping Advances. Consider, instead, of having two units of Chosen accompanying the Sorcerer. Because, as Illumini noted, you have to have 10 Chaos Space Marines in a squad to get the second special weapon.

Also, there's no way you're going to include those two Land Raiders in a Chaos Space Marine army and three pairs of Obliterators. That would take five Heavy Support slots. It would work if you took two squads of four Chaos Terminators, since Chaos Terminators can have Chaos Land Raiders as dedicated transports.

Finally I'd recommend two things: Firstly, trade in your Obliterators for Havocs. You'll get more bodies and more in the theme of masses of basic Chaos Space Marine, as that's what Havocs are: Chaos Space Marines that can't score but that have a free hand when it comes to weapons.

Secondly, consider taking a couple of large units of Lesser Daemons that the Chaos Space Marines can summon to their Icons.

If you take an army composed entirely of Chosen Chaos Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, and Chaos Space Marine Havocs, you'll have those masses of Chaos Space Marines.

Nurglitch, your right. If i was going to run OBLITZ, it would have to be a single cult of two or three with the two land raiders there. This was just a list i spat out as i was writing the post.



The responses are all very insightful. Thanks again for a lot of the answers i was needing, confirming the ups and downs of using hte basic CSM as a troop choice.


The bottom line is Khorne will still kill more, Noise Marines will kill faster, Plague Marines will hold objectives better... but the basic CSM is very playable.

lletherboy:

Please use English vocabulary and grammar, as your language is very difficult to read.

1. What about thousand sons?

2. Do they REALLY have NO close combat weapon?


3. What happens if they get in combat, do they just die?

lletherboy:

Thousand Suns will have A1 in close combat at I4 if they're charged, or A1+1 (charging bonus) at I1 if they charge thanks to Slow and Purposeful. If their Aspiring Sorcerer has Warptime he'll be able to reduce the unit's No Retreat wounds until a counter-assault unit can come in and help defeat the enemy unit(s).

Consider, however, that Slow and Purposeful means that you can adjust the Thousand Sun's range without removing their ability to fire up to 24" with their Rapid Fire weapons. In addition they can have a Personal Icon to summon Lesser Daemons, which can screen assaults on them.

Thousand Sons are a niche unit.
They do their best against one type of target.
Are somewhat flexible in engagement ranges.

Though (I don't want to get too deep into it) they have an uphill climb in terms of points efficiency when compared to any other troop unit.
5th Ed. was not kind to the Dust Buckets.

They can perform in combat, but it's not where they want to be.
If they are caught in combat, like Nurglitch has said, they will stick around til a counter assault unit gets them out of it.

Sanctjud:

I'd have to disagree on several points: Thousand Suns are flexible enough to handle any kind of target, particularly if you fork out for the Bolt of Change. However, they are best at anti-infantry work, and generally being bricks in the face of serious anti-tank firepower. Remember that they'll ignore Sv4+ just as well as Sv3+, and Sv5+ between 13"-24" range better than regular Chaos Space Marines.

Against anti-infantry and anti-vehicle fire they're just Space Marines. In a way they're almost the opposite of Plague Marines and complement them well - when anti-tank and power weapons target the Plague Marines, put the Thousand Suns in front, and when anti-infantry firepower abounds, put the Plague Marines in front.

Something to consider for the Thousand Suns is how they use Rhino blocking, a Rhino to block lines of sight to and from the unit, as they require protection from anti-infantry firepower rather than from the anti-tank that is the bane of other sorts of Chaos Space Marine. Don't actually enter the Rhino, but move up behind it.

An entertaining, if one-shot, piece of dickery involves giving the Aspiring Sorcerer the Gift of Chaos and using your Thousand Suns as a skirmish screen to provide cover and charge-interdiction for the rest of the army. They survive assaults well enough, at least for a turn and in the face of rending and power weapons, and the unit they're locked with into the beginning of their turn is now at risk of two Gifts of Chaos thanks to the Aspiring Sorcerer's Mark of Tzeentch.

If you want a nasty firebase have a unit of Thousand Suns surround and escort units of Obliterators - suddenly the Obliterators are practically impossible to charge or tie up in combat (at least until the Fearless Thousand Sun picket has been entirely shredded), and gain a Cv4+ from the Suns themselves.

Likewise they combine well with Noise Marines if you want them to walk and shoot, again interdicting shooting and charges, while being accompanied by a rather decent, yet comparatively fragile, counter-charge unit.

When combining them with your Chaos Space Marines, put them in front, between the Chaos Space Marines and the enemy for a similar effect.

In short, Thousand Suns are particularly suited to play by a Tzeentchian player because they reward guile. Use them to interdict enemy units, to provide cover, and to provide close support while the army marches up the board.

I'd have to disagree on several points: Thousand Suns are flexible enough to handle any kind of target, particularly if you fork out for the Bolt of Change. However, they are best at anti-infantry work, and generally being bricks in the face of serious anti-tank firepower. Remember that they'll ignore Sv4+ just as well as Sv3+, and Sv5+ between 13"-24" range better than regular Chaos Space Marines.

Focusing on the Dust Buckets themselves (forgive me if I didn’t say the following before), but their maximum utility is taking out MEQs out of cover. Which is that single awesome moment they are good.
If there is any hint of cover or any alternative profile stats and costs their efficiency is either not good or wasted.
So they are no better than other bolters vs. 5+.
Basically 3+ and 4+. Yes, true. As I said, maximum utility against MEQ, but even vs. 4+ armor bypassing it is nice, but there is ‘waste’ here in the form of overkill and as I’ve seen it anything in 4+ armor will most likely have a fast ride or sticks to cover. Rare will 4+ armor be out in the open.

Now the Sorcerer, true, he can supplement the squad but it comes at a steep cost.
Doom bolt is nice because it compliments the weaponry and is cheap.
Wind is good, because it gets around their annoyance with cover saves, but is expensive, almost demands a rhino, and demands a range where the TS do well and not so well (combat tied up).
Bolt of Change: exensive, needs to hit, single shot, supplementary which means an opportunity cost in most cases, lack of melta rule for something that really should have it for the cost.

Just because they have a 4++ doesn’t mean they automatically attract all the lascannon/melta gun/battle cannon/demo cannon fire.
The 4++ is nice, but cover is so readily available or easily created which mitigates at least half the reason to have a 4++.

Against anti-infantry and anti-vehicle fire they're just Space Marines. In a way they're almost the opposite of Plague Marines and complement them well - when anti-tank and power weapons target the Plague Marines, put the Thousand Suns in front, and when anti-infantry firepower abounds, put the Plague Marines in front.

…I think I might be thick skinned around my brain, but this doesn’t really make any sense.
In most cases it won’t be a footslogging list. In addition TS upfront has issues. Mainly the dudes behind them will be limited in the distance the Dust Buckets shuffle.
Then the power weapon issue…and the small arms. At least for small arms, no one here really benefits from ‘screening’ while most small arms will place their shots where ever they want, whether or not a squad is in front of it or not.

There is a huge opportunity cost in placement, not matter what, one will be in front of the other, it gives the opponent an easier time in deciding what to use in the situation presented.
The polar opposites of the PMs and TS together doesn’t really work in my mind as 40K doesn’t work that way. Perfect information. Knowledge of where units are, how they function, they don’t leapfrog effectively because it’s a turn system. Knowledge of where your shots will go and knowing where best to apply it, no ability to switch places when it’s beneficial before a trap is sprung.

Something to consider for the Thousand Suns is how they use Rhino blocking, a Rhino to block lines of sight to and from the unit, as they require protection from anti-infantry firepower rather than from the anti-tank that is the bane of other sorts of Chaos Space Marine. Don't actually enter the Rhino, but move up behind it.

Rhino helps all, I will agree on that. And when I do suggest things for TS the rhino is the first thing.
Whether in it or not Rhinos are good.
Though, I’d think it would be a lot safer in it than out.
Deepstrikers, fast enemy elements, templates can aim for the rhino and still hit dudes behind it, in addition you have the problem of variable movement for TS in which they depends on running to catch up to the rhino.

An entertaining, if one-shot, piece of dickery involves giving the Aspiring Sorcerer the Gift of Chaos and using your Thousand Suns as a skirmish screen to provide cover and charge-interdiction for the rest of the army. They survive assaults well enough, at least for a turn and in the face of rending and power weapons, and the unit they're locked with into the beginning of their turn is now at risk of two Gifts of Chaos thanks to the Aspiring Sorcerer's Mark of Tzeentch.

Screening sounds good, but it’s not flexible.
They are charge acceptors but can’t get out of it, so that robs the army of a shooting phase against offending chargers.
In addition, the variable speed does not make for a flexible screen.
In general, mass attacks in combat are still the majority of the offensive power of a Combat Unit, while power weapons/fists only push that up 1 maybe 2 vs. normal opponents.
I’m not saying 4++ is unwanted, but it’s something you pay for…and yet it’s of real usage in combat (where they really don’t want to be), while at range, they are comfortable out in the open, but cover saves are free and easy to get for other units.

Gift of Chaos is a fun kit, but not doing a whole lot for the TS.

If you want a nasty firebase have a unit of Thousand Suns surround and escort units of Obliterators - suddenly the Obliterators are practically impossible to charge or tie up in combat (at least until the Fearless Thousand Sun picket has been entirely shredded), and gain a Cv4+ from the Suns themselves.

In which case, the TS are giving the opponents of the same level cover saves.
Oblits have the range and the small stature to claim cover saves easily.
In addition, they will most likely not be in charge range as they can advance with a rhino wall. What has worked for me is oblits babysitting troops, not troops babysitting oblits.

Using TS to defend against charges on Oblits…I have no comments here as I don’t think I’ve ever needed that function.

Likewise they combine well with Noise Marines if you want them to walk and shoot, again interdicting shooting and charges, while being accompanied by a rather decent, yet comparatively fragile, counter-charge unit.

Well, my issue with NM is that they do hordes better and do 2/3 as well as TS on the move and as well when standing and shooting.
Full movement, Ubergrit, access to a fist or doomsiren (cheaper flamey death)

When combining them with your Chaos Space Marines, put them in front, between the Chaos Space Marines and the enemy for a similar effect.

In which case you have 2 units limited by S&P movement if you want the screen up.
CSM advance or shoot. Both are not ideal if they are using TS as screens. Limited Advance or lack of previous movement to get in a good shooting spot midfield.
I don’t know, Rhino-less CSM are few in my area.

In short, Thousand Suns are particularly suited to play by a Tzeentchian player because they reward guile. Use them to interdict enemy units, to provide cover, and to provide close support while the army marches up the board.

Provide cover that is either free or comes with a rhino?
Close support to an army that DRIVES up the board and keeps up consistently?
Interdict enemy units when you could use lesser daemons coupled with Icons on rhinos?

Whatever floats your boat… I think that is a very fluffy, but weak description of getting the most out of TS…maybe weak isn’t the word, more like cheesy (not the competitive jerk definition of cheesy, but the ‘flimsy’ kind.)
__________________---------

My experience with footslogging lists has so far been more of a hassle to play.
Can it do well. Yes it can, no doubt there, but… /shrug, there is a lack of a better word, it’s a hassle to work with.

As a side note, most likely TS and I just don’t mix well.
I’ve gotten the Dread to do well.
I’ve gotten lesser daemons to do well.
I’ve gotten possessed and spawn to do well.
The Dust Buckets just don’t do well for me every time I force myself to use them, theory hammer, or view other games in my area.
The local TS players either have shelved the army or use Loyalist SM rules set count as.

I hear of others doing well with them, but in general it’s the Princes and heavy support being overworked and TS just hanging around to claim objectives… in which case regular CSM could do the same thing for cheaper (objectives in cover almost all the time).

On thing I did see that was a good idea was placing your objective in the open to benefit the most from a 4++ for the TS.
But then you lose:
-Cover bonus when enemy charge your guys.
-Difficult terrain to possible disallow said charge.
-Terrain to prevent turbo boosters from endgame claiming, dangerous terrain for the flat out vehicles.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:

lletherboy wrote:Whats the deal with your basic CHAOS SPACE MARINE troop choice?

Anyone think its worth running them as your basic troop choice in the name of putting more and larger squads out there?

Are they just too vanilla?

I see little difference between them and the basic space marine, except they can be marked if you want to and can run odd as well as large unit sizes.

I have been thinking about running a list this way so I could get my full compliment of 6 troop choices and still have room in my points TOT for heavy support and god willing elites.

They're more versatile than Tactical Marines. You can run 2 special weapons, you can mark them, they're cheaper, and you get a bolter, bolt pistol, AND close combat weapon.

Exactamungo.

Vanilla CSMs are a rock hard troops choice that comes at a very cheap price.

10 CSM with 2 meltas IOCG and a pfist champ in a Rhino is a great troops choice at a good cost.


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I also love thousand sons, but they don't do everything.

10 CSMs with a champ can charge a unit of 30 orks and win.

There is little in an ork list that thousand sons are optimal for shooting at.

Wow Sanct thats one hellava post!

Gotta say though those dust buckets look awesome and if your going to fluffy Tz you gotta get them in somewhere.

Great post Sanctjud.

Thousand Sons are best against units without Cover.

Thousand Sons are best in footslogging lists.

Neither of which is experienced very often in 5th edition.

Sourclams just summed up my block-o-text in four lines, awesome-sauce .

To reiterate: Do Dust Buckets work? Yes. But not without hurdles to overcome.
In general, specilized squads have a hard time fitting into a Troop-heavy army that almost demands flexibility from all members.

Dust Buckets kill power armor equivalent well and take anti-MEQ fire well, no arguing here.
It's only that there are many things that dull the advantages you pay for that make them hard to use.

5th Edition has not been kind to them, nor has GW been. They've even shafted Arihman by taking away the old 3 BoC or 9 shot doombolt...just beacause.

Dust buckets do best when supported by assault troops and/or template weapons.

If the enemy hugs cover and doesn't come out to play the become static and huddled. Static units are vulnerable to assaults, and huddled units are vulnerable to templates.

Cover is not only limited to static area terrain.

-Multiple pieces in running distance of each other, cover hopping essentially.
-Rhino wall, mech wall.
-Any terrain obscurity of 50%, sort of like the conga line.
-Smoke Launchers.
-Special rules and gear.

Static units are vulnerable to assaults

Well this is really hit or miss. Most MEQ's can operate at a stand off distance and still contribute at least 24" away when standing and shooting in terrain.

Being in cover means: enemy needs offensive grenades to bypass I1 disadv. for charging into terrain and has to roll difficult terrain to charge in.

No, 'static' units are not automatically vulnerable when in cover, they actually get bonuses.
Now if you meant non-combat static units (like Guard Hvy weapon squads, then yes, but that's a given really).

As for huddled units, that is not always true either. One can have maximum coherency and still get cover saves with LoS abuse/mech walls/screens.

I always imagined the best usage for the TS was an assaulty use, in the sense that they can rapidfire bolters at a target, doing some damage (or a lot at units w/o cover), then charge in with 2 attacks each at SM stats, with a guy wielding a FW and potentially rocking Warptime. Sure, they're not the world's most formidable assault troops, but the combo of the rapidfired AP3 bolters at BS4, charging CSM's, and the sorcerer all seem to add up to some hurting, while being fairly hard to hurt in return (just as hard as Marines, but with the 4++ against the inevitable PF or PK).

Of course, I didn't realize they didn't have assault grenades. Lame. I thought all those cultists came with those standard.

That's where you run into issues with points efficiency.

Adding up to some hurting is mandatory for a unit bordering on 300 points. Is it "enough" hurting? Compared to the other CSM troop choices and adjusting for points cost, it probably isn't.

That is one of the perks of Slow and Purposeful...and also a down fall.

It's nice if the situation presents itself, but there is no reliability here.
S&P means that movment and charging are variable and not reliable...so the tables may turn around easier than if it were another unit.

I would call it burst damage, as to the Standard grenades for cultists... see... no love from GW.
In addition they are magically sealed armor with dust inside...moving is already a problem and they shoot... the usage of grenades and combat seems a stretch on their powers...as they only use them as meat shields anyway.

Read my article and the discussion thread linked to in the bottom. This has been discussed to death several times

I guess some of us like beating the Dust Bucket cans...alot...
Deathguard rules, Thousand Sons Shafted...it's a wonderful world.

That being said, excellent responses... And a second for Cannerus' article. Very well written and helped me conclude whether or not to start a chaos army at all.

Back on topic, I think the two biggest reasons I take cult troops over basic CSM are:

- Fearless and gobs of great special rules for just a few pts more per marine
- Ability to take 2 special wpns under 10 for Plague Marines

I love basic CSM and am trying to force myself to field more, but they get expensive very quickly (how much for a lascannon?) and rarely out-perform the Plague Marines I have been using.

- Blackbone

Best way I've heard it put was this:

Basic CSM are amazing troop choices, some of the best in the game. They are almost as good as cult troops.

As for the Ksons argument, are we seriously going there again? We do this every couple of months. Ksons are fine, equal with or superior to other cult troops respectively.