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The only things I really want to see, is a 5+ invuln. save, and cheaper weapons in general, for the whole army.

Wraithguard also need an invuln, but the Wraithlord requires one.

I am not sold on adding 5 or so, more weapons to the Wraithlords arsenal. I currently like the setup, and always take 2 flamers. For a Ninjalord, flamers are the icing on a pretty effective cake. Looking at all of the new Tyranid MC's, combined with the massive spread of anti-tank weaponry that will tear your Wraithlord into pieces; I think one extra wound would not be too much to ask for.

Perhaps if the weapons were cheaper, it would make sense to add 10 points to the cost of the WL. At 155 points for a AT-Lord (BL, EML. Which is a fantastic combo overall) I expect more from it, though I can't see having two of the same weapon being all that fair. It could be, but two BL shots would be absolutely devastating to mech-forces.

It would be cool to have something along the lines of a shield (as mentioned), that would be relatively expensive (35-45 points), to upgrade to a 2+ armor save. Maybe access to the Holofield, although I can see that being completely unfair.\

reds8n wrote:3. Maybe allowing the selection of a wraithlord as a troops choice for each unit of X wraithguard. A nod back to the old Iyanden list, does still leave some costing issues perhaps (subject to wraithguard unit size maybe) and follows on from ideas seen in the Tyranid codex. Sort of.

I could see that working, although I would say that you should only be able to get a Wraithlord, if you already have a full squad of Wraithguard, as well as a Spiritseer. Very expensive points wise (and cash-wise too ), but a seriously freaking devastating when in play. The WL should also have to come into play on the first turn, within range of the Spiritseer (1 Ft.). I would like to see alternative weapons for the WG, though that it a different topic.

4. In a similar vein perhaps allowing units of 1-3 wraithlords as a single heavy choice, like the broods of carnifex in the new tyranid book.

Dear lord man, that sounds ridiculous!

They are t8 MC's, and if you play them effectively, perhaps by using tanks to provide them with cover... devastating combo. Very unfair. Eldar have fortune, guide, doom, etc... (plus any new powers we could see ), to buff that uber-unit of MC's. It works out to be an affordable walking sledgehammer nuke combo. At 300 points, 6 flamers, 3 swords (9 attacks w/ RR, not all that scary I suppose), they just sound too effective and cheap.

Add my request for an invulnerable save, and they are definitely way too cheap as is.

An invul save? What? Really? Man that is insane, they are toughness 8! Use cover, mine almost never die.

Now taking a shield that gives them an improved save at the expense of a weapon I could see, and it would look cool, but a stock standard Wraithlord is a steal for it's cost. It baffles me that people don't get more use out of them.

It needs to be more durable. How much does it cost, 100 points? My ratlings infiltrated and took it down to 1 wound first turn, killing it the next with 0 casualties. Then again, they're made for that. What it really needs is another wound. And let them have D-Cannons.

A 5+ invuln save is not crazy by any means. Wraithlords are one of the largest models in the entire game, and as such, have an incredibly hard time actuallly benefiting from cover. The only thing that you can use to provide them with cover, are tanks, although you could manage it with warwalkers, but that would be a bad idea.

Aside the fact that it is very hard (note: impossible) to get cover with a WL, when in CC with a powerfist, they have a tendency to crumble within two turns. I usually lose a wound to shooting, they get into combat, and they die to the crouching tac marine/ ork boy, hidden powerfist combo. This is the main reason I don't use Ninja-lords, they never manage to do anything besides soak up a bit of firepower. When facing down an army with a dozen Power claws, and a dozen AT weapon shots, they really don't stand a chance.

There is a reason that you can't do an effective footslogging list in most tournaments, and the fact that Wraithguard, and Wraithlord don't have invulnerable saves, is as much a reason as anything else. You may have luck with that type of list, for whatever reason, but the averages for a WL to survive effectively against a well composed army, are very slim indeed. Access to a 2+ save with no invulnerable save standard, would be an explicit waste of points.

3 t8, 2+ saves, are meaningless to an IG gunline. They are also meaningless to a Mech Ork swarm. Your wounds are worthless against PK/PF, and that is a massive tactical disadvantage. Tyranids have 6 freaking wounds on most of their MC's, t6 or not, they have no real need for invulnerables.

Lascannons wound on a 3+... wound gone.

Charging Nobs wound on a 3+... dead WL.

Snipers wound on a 4+, with the added benefit of rending, making them ridiculously effective against any MC.

There are a mass of weapons, that do incredibly well at decapitating your WL, and 3 wounds is never going to make this guy worth his points. If you want a fire-magnet, use a fortuned Avatar, backed by 3 Ninja-lords. If not, your wasting your WL by pretending it is invincible. Head to head against vehicles, WL can do amazingly well, not so against troops in general though.

No decent player has anything to really worry about from a solo WL, they need the teamwork, to be effective in any way. When the WL get into combat, guess what, they don't really do anything, they just stand there looking elegant. As the fluff indicates that they are supposed to be tough, I think that updating their toughness (5+ invulnerable save will do the trick), to match the new style of gameplay, is a great way to balance the shortcoming of the unit in general. I don't want my WL to be CC, I want them to be able to shoot, and get shot at without dying. Along with being able to withstand PK/PF assaults, at least to some degree.

I'm a frequent opponent to Tau and my WL doesn't stand a chance to the onslaught of fire that comes my way, apart from the obvious rail rifle shots the plasma rifles shread it appart due to the ap2 so the idea of a 5+ inv save is a great idea it won't make it unstopable but it will help it survive the volley of shots in the first couple of turns.

I agree with the squishiness of the WL. Its high toughness doesn't seem to matter much anymore (especially vs nids). Invulnerable saves and cheaper point costs would raise its effectiveness imop. Oh yeah, and get rid of wraithsight for the WL. Seriously. Right now I just take prisms...

I think that squads, and inv 5+, and more weapon choices would be good. of course for a bit higher price, I think that themed would be too complicated. and d-cannons too powerful. but still, it would be awesome having 3 t8 awesome weapon inv 5+ sv 3+ mc's, and as eldar own so humbly put it, it would be awesome to yell "and this is only one heavy support choice *****!!!"

I'm definitely with the extra wound, extra attack, cheaper weapons crowd. Personally I really like black antelopes wargear list earlier (we might actually see d-cannons get used then).
A t8, 3w, 3+ MC is awfully hard to keep alive against the AT arrayed with most armies now.
If a 5+ invul is too much (i don't think it is), then I could see the 2+ save working well with an extra wound.

I've always thought it would be nice, to at least have the option for a more "veteran" WL. After all, while the spirits of aspect warriors might do for animating wraithguard, WL require more, often exarch quality. I think the option to boost WS or BS would be nice, so that people can better specialize their WLs for range firepower or close combat. I'm not calling for WS 8 or 9 MCs (cough*tyranids*cough) but I think that at least some of them should be more exarch caliber.

Tortoiseer wrote:I'm definitely with the extra wound, extra attack, cheaper weapons crowd. Personally I really like black antelopes wargear list earlier (we might actually see d-cannons get used then).

don't you think that d-cannons are a bit big for this?

Tortoiseer wrote: I'm not calling for ... 9 MCs (cough*tyranids*cough) but I think that at least some of them should be more exarch caliber.

what's wrong with 9 mc's, I'll bet iyanden has some of that.

Not really. The d cannon isn't that big. Certainly not, when compared to a WL anyway. My bad about the first part. I meant WS9 MCs. I could care less if they somehow fit 9 MCs into their army.

@Reecius: What do you run that your WL's perform so well? How many points? Supporting units?

I don't want to change this discussion into an army list or tactics thread but I think a little context would help the arguments being made here.

In my lists I try to take as many wave serpents filled with aspect warriors to give my opponent lots of potential targets to shoot at.

I have my Wraithlords w/Wraithsword and either with a scatter laser or bright lance accompanied by guardians w/warlock or dire avengers to hold down objectives.

I think its just depends what kind of mix you take. If the Wraithlords are the juiciest targets on the board - of course they aren't going to last long. And maybe it's just me, but whenever I field Fire Prisms - they get blown up! Kaboom!

After reviewing the Eldar dex I figured WL's would be best cheap. I fixed them for assault with dual flamer and wraith sword for 100 pts. figured they would be best spammed. Of course this was theoretical since I don't play Eldar but will someday! Since they obviously take up a heavy slot it required me to rely on vipers and fire dragons.
5X Fire dragons in serpent w/ brightlances = good.
Viper jb's with bright lances = bad.

Since spamming walkers is easier and more cost efficient and fire prisms are better anti AV. there really is not a place for WL's ATM.

Squadrons of 2, cheaper weapons, more attacks, defensive grenades. Or rather not defensive grenades per se, but some sort of rule representing how tall and powerful they are, such that some bonus impetus from enemy charges falls flat on its face when coming up against wraithlords.