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I don't play Eldar myself but they are a frequent foe of mine. The wraithlord, it seems to me anyway, is currently not quite pulling its weight, especially compared to the days of yore when they were a nasty nasty threat. Generally my opponents leave them at home in favour of falcons and/or Fire prisms. As the model is actually pretty nice (YMMV of course) and a fairly new plastic kit we've been knocking round some ideas as to how to improve the units viability. Thoughts and opinions on the following would be welcomed:

1. Lower the points cost and/or alter the basic weapons package it comes with. An obvious "fix" but one that may have unintended knock ons with regards to smaller point games where the wraithlord is actually still pretty useful.

2. The option of some form of invulnerable save. Either a holo or energy field or perhaps some form of stormshield type affair. Could be good and might make for some interesting conversion possibilities perhaps.

3. Maybe allowing the selection of a wraithlord as a troops choice for each unit of X wraithguard. A nod back to the old Iyanden list, does still leave some costing issues perhaps (subject to wraithguard unit size maybe) and follows on from ideas seen in the Tyranid codex. Sort of.

4. In a similar vein perhaps allowing units of 1-3 wraithlords as a single heavy choice, like the broods of carnifex in the new tyranid book.

You really just need to drop the points cost of weapons, and allow 2 of the same weapon w/o Twin Linking it.

Like this:

Wraithlord - Armed with 2x Shuriken Catapult, Shuriken Cannon - 90

May replace Shuriken Catapults with (price for each):
Flamers - 5
Death Spinners - 5
Reaper Launchers - 15

May replace Shuriken Cannon with:
Wraithsword - 10
Scatter Laser - 10
Starcannon - 15
EML - 15
Bright Lance - 25
Shadow Weaver* - 20
Vibro Cannon* - 40
Distort Cannon* - 50

May also take:
Wraithsword - 20
Shuriken Cannon - 5
Scatter Laser - 15
Starcannon - 20
EML - 20
Bright Lance - 30


NOTE:
Wraithsword - +1 attack. If 2 Wraithswords are taken, the Wraithlord may reroll all failed "To Hit" Rolls agianst targets with a WS.
Taking 2 weapons does not make them Twin Linked.
Weapons marked with a * may only be taken if no second weapon is chosen.
Shadow Weaver - Rg48, S6, AP6, Heavy 1, Large Blast, Barrage, Pinning
Vibro Cannon - as C:Eldar, but S5
Distort Cannon - Rg:24, SX, AP1, Heavy 1, Blast, Barrage, Pinning [Damage as per C:Eldar]

I like the upgrade options that Black Antelope provides, especially the addition of Deathspinners and Reaper Launchers as an alternative to flamers or shuricats. Equipping them with support weapons is an option that I've read around here before.

With Wlords at BS 4, there's not much reason for twin big guns to be twin linked except for perceived balance purposes. As it stands, I'd rather pick a second gun, ala BL/EML combo, for a dash of versatility. However, if the upgrade prices stayed the same, I'd like to be able to fire each weapon instead of twin linking.

Going back to the Iyanden concept, what about allowing a single 1-3 Wraithlord choice if you include a Wraithguard Troops selection? That would let you field up to 5 lords if you've got a unit of WG as troops. It may be on the pricey side, but very tough and fluffy.

I wouldn't mind paying extra for a 5++ or 4++ option or even a 2+ armor upgrade - great for themed Wlords like a Scorpion or Reaper. I wouldn't even mind if the Invulnerable was along the lines of the DA Shimmershield, counting only in CC.

And speaking of themed Wraithlords, for 120 points I'd love to have a "Venerable Aspect" option, raising the BS/WS to 5 and allowing the Wlord to select one of the exarch abilities from any one shooty/cc aspect. What do you think?

how about a prism cannon????

Gavin Thorne wrote:
Going back to the Iyanden concept, what about allowing a single 1-3 Wraithlord choice if you include a Wraithguard Troops selection? That would let you field up to 5 lords if you've got a unit of WG as troops. It may be on the pricey side, but very tough and fluffy.

The alternative would be to allow one Lord as Troops (non-scoring?) per Troops choice of Guard
(siteing presidence of the new Tyranids. Probably make it none scoreing to prevent OPness. Would allow 5 Lords in a 2000p Wraithwall list)

I wouldn't mind paying extra for a 5++ or 4++ option or even a 2+ armor upgrade - great for themed Wlords like a Scorpion or Reaper. I wouldn't even mind if the Invulnerable was along the lines of the DA Shimmershield, counting only in CC.

A shimmershield would work - 5++ save in CC. Have it as a secondry weapon option (ie on the second heavy weapon list) for 15p. Would be an interesting alternative to the Twin Sword Lord

And speaking of themed Wraithlords, for 120 points I'd love to have a "Venerable Aspect" option, raising the BS/WS to 5 and allowing the Wlord to select one of the exarch abilities from any one shooty/cc aspect. What do you think?

Im not sure about Venerable - too like SM IMO. Also, you'd need to limit the exarch skills - Bladestorm/Sky Leap Lords anyone?

MOMUS wrote:how about a prism cannon????

Too powerful IMO. also, it cuts too much into the roll of the Fire Prism

i ment insted to other weapons not aswel as

a gun that can link fire that only appears on one tank?

I think Wraithlords are still pretty good the problem is they take up crucial FoC slots so making them 0-1 in squads of up to 3 and they may deploy an act separately would be a fairly balanced fix.

Move em to elite's then, makes em more comparable to a SM dread then too.

I dunno how well that would be received, though, not up on how much competition Eldar have for Elite slots.

Jack

Move them to Elites and have them lead wraith guards the same way Tervigon leads gaunts!

With the rise of toxin sacs and hellfire rounds, I think they should be made immune to poison attacks.

I'm actually worried about the abundance of invul saves out there. One of the hard tactical choices is what weapons to shoot against what unit. With everyone and his dog packing invul saves that choice is narrowed, as AP doesn't enter into it. Or at least make the invul save a lot worse than his regular save, so that it's still a tactial decision to fire low ap weapons at him. Like the cc shield idea - knight lords FTW!

...and if you make him immune to poisons, shouldn't necrons also be? And daemons? And Spez Mareens? The rulebook specifically adresses this - there are EMP "poisons", holy water "poisions" you name it.

Kveldulv wrote:...and if you make him immune to poisons, shouldn't necrons also be? And daemons? And Spez Mareens? The rulebook specifically adresses this - there are EMP "poisons", holy water "poisions" you name it.

Short answer? No.

Not as short answer... I don't care who else possess that counter, I just think it would be cool to have a tactical "Paper" to the growth of Poisoned attacks' "Rock", and a Wraithlord is a good unit for it.

Besides the thought of a small brood of hormagaunts bringing down a Wraithlord in 1 round annoys me. /shrug

Wraithlords used to be better before you had Powerfists everywhere. Used to be you had a Wraithlord they had to kill it before combat or there was no hope. Now every army can deal with Wraithlords.

What they need above all else is another wound. Give them that they are uber again.

Black Antelope wrote:The alternative would be to allow one Lord as Troops (non-scoring?) per Troops choice of Guard
(siteing presidence of the new Tyranids. Probably make it none scoreing to prevent OPness. Would allow 5 Lords in a 2000p Wraithwall list)

Poe-tae-toe, Poe-tah-toe. I think we're on the same page. I think Luna's expansion makes sense too, but not at the cost of an elite slot. Eldar suffer from a glut of elites and need those slots for effective CC units. I for one wouldn't mind shuffling the Falcon to Fast Attack or Dedicated Transport upgrade which would free up some room in the HS selection.

Black Antelope wrote:A shimmershield would work - 5++ save in CC. Have it as a secondry weapon option (ie on the second heavy weapon list) for 15p. Would be an interesting alternative to the Twin Sword Lord

That was my thought. Since it's a CC only ++ save, it's not going to make the Wlord OP and at 5+ it's not a perfect counter to power fists or klaws, but should help keep the Wlord in the fight at the expense of a second heavy weapon.

Black Antelope wrote:Im not sure about Venerable - too like SM IMO. Also, you'd need to limit the exarch skills - Bladestorm/Sky Leap Lords anyone?

Not necessarily Venerable, I agree that it's too much like marines, but maybe "Aspect Wraithlord" or "Ancient Wraithlord" with an increased BS/WS but with a single Exarch skill in place of the Venerab le rule. I agree about limiting the lord's skills since things like skilled rider don't mean much to a unit that's not on cavalry or bikes and some skills may be OP (Fast Shotting EML & BL anyone?), but don't think that Bladestorming a Shuriken Cannon or Hit and Running is out of the question. Certainly would give a bit of variety to the old boys.

Black Antelope wrote:

MOMUS wrote:how about a prism cannon????

Too powerful IMO. also, it cuts too much into the roll of the Fire Prism

I agree with Black Antelope here, too powerful. The prism cannon wouldn't be a bad idea for a support weapon, though. Say 90pts per cannon and get 3 squads of 3 to lay down some heavy firepower.

What would making them T10 do in game?

Rather than that, probably another wound or two, maybe an extra attack would be welcome.

Daba wrote:What would making them T10 do in game?

Rather than that, probably another wound or two, maybe an extra attack would be welcome.

T10 - would break the game - it would be nigh unkillable in CC for many armies.
I dont think it needs any more wounds either.

With the rise of toxin sacs and hellfire rounds, I think they should be made immune to poison attacks.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense, hormagaunts should not be able to kill it that quickly.

Im not sure about Venerable - too like SM IMO. Also, you'd need to limit the exarch skills - Bladestorm/Sky Leap Lords anyone?

YES! NAO! please, that would make the WL seriously cool. *faints after imagining the awesome conversion possibilities

More attacks is the change that i want most, i mean two!!! I would like to see units of wraithlords, i mean 'fexes got them. I'd like to charge 3 wraithlords into a unit causing huge amouts of destruction and yell "and this is only one heavy support choice *****!!!"

I think that wraithlords are the odd one out in an eldar army and i have a few problems with it some have been mentioned but i think its worth emphasising, the W and A aren't balanced it needs one more not for both but for one so that it either becomes better at surviving in cc or it finishes it that little but faster due to the extra attack. And i would like to see either it's WS or I go up that would make i worth its points imo, because atm i find it to be quite under powered and a huge bullet/laser magnet.

They will turn Wraithlords into HQ choices. Or should, allow them more options, give them the tactical flexibility in field-able options that their own immeasurable lifespan should merit.

T 9, more options, and for T9, maybe a little higher point value, keep 'em in HS, field 'em in squads of three.

who wouldn't want 9 T9 S9 fearless re-roll to hit, MC's in their army?

@Black antilope I really like your list of upgrades and prices most of it makes sense. The only gripe I have is havnig reaper launchers as a sub armament. Having a 36" range sub munition is too weird/powerful. Also it would have a longer range then a shuriken cannon a primary weapon upgrade. Death spinners though make sense. Powerful yet short range.

As for survivability, it needs something not sure what.

Wow, make the WL cheaper? Damn, mine are amazing in every single game. It matters how you use them.

Best set up, in my opinion:

Just a warithsword and run them up the field,

EML, Bright Lance and have them sit in cover and shoot, good luck killing them.

I think they are priced fine now, they are one of the most powerful elements in my Eldar list, every single game.

beethoveN wrote:T 9, more options, and for T9, maybe a little higher point value, keep 'em in HS, field 'em in squads of three.

who wouldn't want 9 T9 S9 fearless re-roll to hit, MC's in their army?

T9 is a bit... uhm... op, especially for the points value. Needing 4+ to wound with ML's and Meltas is good enough, but 4+ with a lascannon? Not even C'tans are that tough!

Zid wrote:

beethoveN wrote:T 9, more options, and for T9, maybe a little higher point value, keep 'em in HS, field 'em in squads of three.

who wouldn't want 9 T9 S9 fearless re-roll to hit, MC's in their army?

T9 is a bit... uhm... op, especially for the points value. Needing 4+ to wound with ML's and Meltas is good enough, but 4+ with a lascannon? Not even C'tans are that tough!

Agreed, T9 is too OP, i mean have you seen the model, it's very skinny! A toughness increase is good, but not to T9.

T9 is way over the top, that means even str 5 can't hurt them.

They are great, I seriously am scratching my head that people aren't getting more use from them.

People need to look harder at HOW they are using them and how they fit in their list before saying the rules as is stink.

They are just so useful, the only thing that stinks is wriathsight, but that is more annoying than anything else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Although I have to say I would love to see them able to take D-Cannons again, that was very cool.

maybe a quite expensive upgrade to make them t9, like what I was seeing, everyone missed that I said for the WL to be more expensive.

dumplingman wrote:@Black antilope I really like your list of upgrades and prices most of it makes sense. The only gripe I have is havnig reaper launchers as a sub armament. Having a 36" range sub munition is too weird/powerful. Also it would have a longer range then a shuriken cannon a primary weapon upgrade. Death spinners though make sense. Powerful yet short range.

As for survivability, it needs something not sure what.

I dont really think it needs a survivability boost (certainly T9 or 2+ save would be too much).

The Reapers are very expensive (30 for a pair), which I feel offsets their power. I inculded then to allow the WL to be a viable anti-MEQ shooting platform. This gives 4 main builds IMO.

2x Flamer, 2x Wraithsword (130)
2x Death Spinner, 2x Scatter Laser (125) [Alternativly, use SCannons 105p]
2x SCatapults, 2x Bright Lance (145)
2x Reaper Laucher, 2x Star Cannon (150)

Puts out 4 S6 and 4 S4 shots, all at AP2/3.

how bout a harlequin wraithlord with 'skils' (think SWlord/hivetyrant upgrades)
or Seer wraithlord with pyschic powers???

what we need is more wep. choices and the choice to field them in squads.