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@ Impdog

the WW1 cavalry look just like Mordians (without the IG iconography of course). The company was having some trouble with their moulds when I ordered them, so it took quite a bit of cleaning up, but I don't know if they're still having that problem. There's not that much variation amongst them either (moustache or no moustache) but painting them up well still makes 'em look good. They're almost exactly the same scale and style as GW 2nd ed metal miniatures, and I got 9 for £21 + p&p. I splashed out on those lances from the assault group, but you can probably make your own easily enough with cocktail sticks, bits and green stuff.
I'll have to warn you though, check wherever you play as to whether you can bring non-GW minis before spending the cash, because there's no point in buying them if they're just going to sit on a shelf. And as has probably already been mentioned, tactically, keep 'em safe, squash one enemy infantry unit flat (try and make sure it's at least 1-2 models weaker than your RR's before you charge so you can wipe them out before they hit back) then charge around the board with them blowing up vehicles etc for the rest of the game. Meltabombs on the sergeant is essential

The fast attack army idea sounds great, fluffy and fun to scare your opponent with. There's a lot of good mechvet batreps on Dakka that show off how to get in your opponent's face with the new codex.

@ spankhammer, I hope you like 'em, I drooled. Good luck!

So gentlemen,
I played a 1000 point game this week, didn't do a batrep for it as it was just a quickie and went... appallingly. I bumped up the last list I showed you with a small unit of melta-stormtroopers (as he brought a recently-acquired dakkapred), pask, and some other bits and pieces, and it was Dawn of War. result being that he unloaded 2 squads of maxed out grey hunters in rhinos on my front lines, had a mm/hf speeder on top of me turn 1, and I was essentially swamped, only able to target 1 unit per turn with the blob and caught in tactical indecision. I surrendered turn 3, when he'd only lost a single unit of grey hunters and most of my army was decimated. My Vets in particular were lacklustre, being tank-shocked off the board pretty sharpish. Cowards as usual, they've just seen too much to want to risk their lives.

As a result, I've created a new, more flexible 1000pt list and I'd like your comments as ever:

CCS (50)
Standard 15
Medic 30
Standard 15
Power Fist 15
Mortar 5
1 Bodyguard 15
130pts

Lord Commissar (70)
Powerfist 15
Plasma Pistol 10
95pts

Ministorum Priest (45)
Shotgun
45pts

Platoon 1:
PCS (30)
2x Flamer 10
40pts

Infantry squad (50)
Sergeant has PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts

Infantry squad (50)
PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts

Heavy weapon squad (60)
3 Lascannons 45
105pts

Platoon 2:
PCS (30)
2x Flamer 10
40pts

Infantry squad (50)
PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts


Infantry squad (50)
PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts

Rough Rider squad (55)
+2 RR 10
Sgt has meltabombs 5
80pts

LRBT (150)
Hull LC 15
165pts

Total: 1000pts

So I plan to blob both platoons, giving me more total firepower and flexibility than my previous setup, and I chose a lord commissar over 2 normal ones because I can get a better version of the same effect where I need it (at the front line), and he's got more wounds and a powerfist. Yes IC's are vulnerable in HtH, but I'm hoping the combination of him and a priest in the same unit, plus some careful positioning, will give me the results I want. This setup also allows me to hopefully move the Priest and Lord Commissar between units so I can get them where they're needed. The LC squad is both a distraction and god-like firepower for bringing down all those vehicles, and the vets, stormtroopers and pask were just a point-sink. Medic may be a lot of points, but I don't have a chimera so it's the best chance I have of keeping my CCS in the game.
Obviously all comments welcome, but the specific switcheroo I'm contemplating is dropping a single Rough Rider and the Bodyguard in order to put a Master of the Fleet in the CCS, as he's suddenly very fond of popping up behind me with Wolf Scouts. Also with the spare 5 points from that, I could put meltabombs on the Lord Commissar or switch the Mortar for 2 Grenade Launchers to keep my CCS mobile. Looking like a good idea, since I've now got a powerfist there, and it can let me move away from threats without compromising the squad's usefulness.
Apart from that I think it's pretty competitive. Moving further away from my original fluffy list, but only in the use of large numbers of heavy weapons, so it doesn't feel too bad, and certainly feels necessary after being run over in the last game.

I look forward to your responses with thanks,
CR.

Sorry that it didn't go well.

Not sure how much help I can be. Two smaller blobs will like you say will allow you to target multiple targets but they lose some of their CC ability (less meat for the grinder)

Never used a priest or Lord Commissar so can't help there. Sorry haven't got my codex on hand at the moment so can't really remember what the priest does. The aura of discipline on the lord commissar has always struck me as tastie

More heavy weapons is never a bad thing especially as you are running an infantry heavy list. I have a HWT with Lascannons for the same reasons you mentioned. Your going to need to keep them protected and near an CCS though.

It looks OK to me, your CCS looks a little heavy but it will take some punishment.

thanks dude. I'm hoping that by overlapping fields of fire, I'll be able to soften up targets before I throw my infantry into the grinder. Plus those flamer PCS's will help a great deal there as well (I hope).

Priests allow you to re-roll all failed to hit rolls on the turn you charge. I'm hoping that combining him and the Lord Commissar in the same squad will keep one or the other (or both) alive long enough to do some squishing in HtH. They're very useful and fluffy in a CC list.

thanks for responding

Captain Roderick wrote:So gentlemen,
I played a 1000 point game this week, didn't do a batrep for it as it was just a quickie and went... appallingly. I bumped up the last list I showed you with a small unit of melta-stormtroopers (as he brought a recently-acquired dakkapred), pask, and some other bits and pieces, and it was Dawn of War. result being that he unloaded 2 squads of maxed out grey hunters in rhinos on my front lines, had a mm/hf speeder on top of me turn 1, and I was essentially swamped, only able to target 1 unit per turn with the blob and caught in tactical indecision. I surrendered turn 3, when he'd only lost a single unit of grey hunters and most of my army was decimated. My Vets in particular were lacklustre, being tank-shocked off the board pretty sharpish. Cowards as usual, they've just seen too much to want to risk their lives.

First and foremost, I went back and re-read all the lists in this tread. None of them were particularly strong list, let alone strength for dealing with GK. Keeping in mind that GK are a VERY specialized army, in that all of their units are high armor, and they are very melee. In most cases an IG infantry list against GK is probably the worst choice. On top of that, most of the lists lacked sufficient anti-mech.

Melta storm troopers was a bad choice. Troopers are well known for not being the best option for their points, and melta would force your squad to be at 12" which is in assaulting range for the GK, basically damning your squad to die. And in this case, a particularly expensive squad. With IG gunlines, you should always recognize the importance of mobility and set up, especially against a CC oriented army.... which is basically every army except blueberries.

Against especially hardcore armies like GK, you should have probably left the squads seperate, so you would have taken less casualties... and would have been able to shoot in between each assault. The idea is to get your squad to die quickly and quietly so you can start shooting in the next phase.

As for the Vets, they are no more or less cowardly than the rest of your army, but I want to say as nicely as I can there was no reason you should have gotten run off the board. A good Company Commander would be near his men, and he could force a regroup regardless of casualties or proximity or enemy units. Also if you had a heavy weapon in the squad of any decient ability... you could have attempted a death or glory. AC, ML, or Lascannon would have worked fine. Hell even a GL might have worked. It certainly would have worked better than running off the board. If you were set up right against the board edge, then I suppose there was nothing you could have done... a lesson learned for the next game, not to set up directly on the edge of the map.

All this being said. GK are probably the hardest to kill list in the game. The fact that you gave up after 3 turns is unfortunate. Taking down one squad of GK is a huge loss for the other side. I am not sure exactly what you had left, but a fully loaded GK squad is worth probably 3 or 4 of your own. But beyond that, I would say that your list wasn't geared to handle GK, and moreso, none of our infantry options are particularly great against GK except maybe a ton of plasma vets. I would intersted in finding out if a Techpriest and a few plasma servitors would have fared.

It's always unfortunate when a commander loses his men in a hopeless fight. May the Emperor protect you in your next battle.

Captain Roderick wrote:CCS (50)
Standard 15
Medic 30
Standard 15
Power Fist 15
Mortar 5
1 Bodyguard 15
130pts

IG are not meant for melee. Powerfist is pointless to have, and is expensive for something you won't use... and if you do... it means the squad is already dead. Bodyguard is fine, although probably not the most useful at 1000pts when those points could be used better for something more powerful. Mortar is nice against horde armies. Standard is one of my favs. Medic is junk. IG toughness and saves are too low. A squad is more likely to get shot to hell and back before the medic ever gets the opportunity to save anyone. Especially in a 5 man squad. Also, feelz no pain only works on the last wound, so is less effective with the heavy weapon team in the squad. Also you would probably rather have the medic take a bullet before the HWT, CCS, or Standard Bearer.

Captain Roderick wrote:Lord Commissar (70)
Powerfist 15
Plasma Pistol 10
95pts

Again, melee is a bad place to be. LC is an IC and can be singled out in melee. Thus he will most likely get destroyed in melee and won't get the opportunity to use his fist (if your opponent knows what he is doing anyway). Plasma pistol is meh. I would say a boltgun would be best, so he can match the rapid fire of any of the squads he is likely to join.

Captain Roderick wrote:Ministorum Priest (45)
Shotgun
45pts

IG are not melee. IG are not melee. IG are not melee. Drop the Priest. Also his bonuses are only given if the squad assaults. Which trust me... IG are not melee. IG will not get the assault. We have no fleet, no open topped transports, no jump infantry... etc. You will be assaulted before you can.

Captain Roderick wrote:Platoon 1:
PCS (30)
2x Flamer 10
40pts

Ok. PCS are basically useless, but flamers let them support your lines while giving orders and they correct the crappy BS3.

Captain Roderick wrote:Infantry squad (50)
Sergeant has PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts

Infantry squad (50)
PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts

Good. AC and GLs have great synergy.

Captain Roderick wrote:Heavy weapon squad (60)
3 Lascannons 45
105pts

I like. Keep your CCS and LC near these guys, BiD orders will be their friends.

Captain Roderick wrote:Platoon 2:
PCS (30)
2x Fl
amer 10
40pts

Infantry squad (50)
PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts


Infantry squad (50)
PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts

Second platoon is a huge waste. The first was ok, as it lets you take a ton of extra infantry for cheap, and gives you access to HWS. A second platoon should never be used until you fill the first one. PCS are pretty much useless. BS3 5 man squads have no useful role, except as casualties and a few basic orders. Platoons are basically for creating meat shields. Their infantry have BS3 which is crappy especially when you start missing with all of your heavy weapon shots, and they have a very low density of special weapons. Special weapons are necessary if you expect to accomplish anything.

Captain Roderick wrote:Rough Rider squad (55)
+2 RR 10
Sgt has meltabombs 5
80pts

RRs are starting to warm up on me. But meltabombs is not an awful idea. Because of their long range assaults, after they hit a squad with their lances, they can go tank hunting later. I would recommend trying to fill out this squad. It is a one hit wonder, and you want to get as much damage as you can to finish the job swiftly, as they cannot survive a prolonged assault.

Captain Roderick wrote:LRBT (150)
Hull LC 15
165pts

Good.

Captain Roderick wrote:So I plan to blob both platoons, giving me more total firepower and flexibility than my previous setup, and I chose a lord commissar over 2 normal ones because I can get a better version of the same effect where I need it (at the front line), and he's got more wounds and a powerfist. Yes IC's are vulnerable in HtH, but I'm hoping the combination of him and a priest in the same unit, plus some careful positioning, will give me the results I want.

Nope. Both are ICs and will be targeted first. They will die before either of them have a chance to attack at I1. Blobing ACs is foolish. When your squads get assaulted, you just lose the ability to fire 2 squads instead of 1... and you are basically locking in two squads to die horribly, and probably will keep the assault going just long enough to end it in your turn... allowing your opponent to just hop from squad to squad without being shot at.

Captain Roderick wrote:This setup also allows me to hopefully move the Priest and Lord Commissar between units so I can get them where they're needed. The LC squad is both a distraction and god-like firepower for bringing down all those vehicles, and the vets, stormtroopers and pask were just a point-sink. Medic may be a lot of points, but I don't have a chimera so it's the best chance I have of keeping my CCS in the game.

Cover would be better for protecting your CCS than a medic. If you are moving around the LC or Priest, the squads count as moving and you won't be able to fire your HWTs. A HWS with las is not god like firepower. You can only fire at 1 target per turn. That is 1 vehicle (maybe) per turn. The individual ACs will probably do more than the lascannons will. Troopers and pask were a point sink, Vets are not. 2 Platoons are a point sink.

Captain Roderick wrote:Obviously all comments welcome, but the specific switcheroo I'm contemplating is dropping a single Rough Rider and the Bodyguard in order to put a Master of the Fleet in the CCS, as he's suddenly very fond of popping up behind me with Wolf Scouts.

Good Idea, OoTF is a great option, does a lot to protect your flanks when you set up near the board edge. Since it isn't infallible, you should always plan to have that be an issue.

Captain Roderick wrote:Also with the spare 5 points from that, I could put meltabombs on the Lord Commissar or switch the Mortar for 2 Grenade Launchers to keep my CCS mobile.

IG are not melee. GLs would be better than melta.

Captain Roderick wrote:Looking like a good idea, since I've now got a powerfist there, and it can let me move away from threats without compromising the squad's usefulness.

Mobility is good, melee is not. Drop the powerfist. IG is not melee.

Captain Roderick wrote:Apart from that I think it's pretty competitive. Moving further away from my original fluffy list, but only in the use of large numbers of heavy weapons, so it doesn't feel too bad, and certainly feels necessary after being run over in the last game.

List lacks a lot of anti horde, and anti MEQ. BS3 is iffy at best. You have a lot of wasted points on bodies, but lack a lot of firepower. I would forsee you getting rolled over by a mech SM list again, or even worse, a fast infantry list. Or any horde list will probably do you in.

I'd consider some assault fodder. Conscripts maybe? I haven't played a ton with the new codex. With the previous ones that I've had experience with you usually had a sacrificial squad or two to take the assault so you can shoot up the enemy after you die.

Conscripts are useless except for dying. Issue is, you want speedbumps... not tarpits. You want cheap small squads to make a wall, that will die quickly so you can start shooting again. Since you have to take a platoon to get to conscripts, it is usually cheaper and more effective to just take infantry squads with some flamers to just make them a little more powerful until they get hit in melee.

You can also give infantry squads power weapons, so against some armies... you sometimes have a decient chance of getting a kill here or there, and its worth blobing up 2 squads so you can get a few wounds in with power weapons. But that depends on your list, and your opponent if it is worth doing.

Cheers for the lengthy response Lt, I've been away over the weekend, so here goes...

Lt Lathrop wrote:
First and foremost, I went back and re-read all the lists in this tread. None of them were particularly strong list, let alone strength for dealing with GK. Keeping in mind that GK are a VERY specialized army, in that all of their units are high armor, and they are very melee. In most cases an IG infantry list against GK is probably the worst choice. On top of that, most of the lists lacked sufficient anti-mech.

Ah, slight confusion, it's Space Wolves - Grey Hunters are their tac squads - that I've been playing against. A lot of the Grey Knight comments will still be relevant however, as they're pretty similar in style if not stats. The lack of anti-mech was something I was trying to redress in the above list, but after your comments I've removed the IC's - I'll post a new list for you to chew apart at the end

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Melta storm troopers was a bad choice. Troopers are well known for not being the best option for their points, and melta would force your squad to be at 12" which is in assaulting range for the GK, basically damning your squad to die. And in this case, a particularly expensive squad. With IG gunlines, you should always recognize the importance of mobility and set up, especially against a CC oriented army.... which is basically every army except blueberries.

I'd love to play against blueberries. My army would make tasty jam out of them! *ahem* Yeah stormtroopers are staying home now.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Against especially hardcore armies like GK, you should have probably left the squads seperate, so you would have taken less casualties... and would have been able to shoot in between each assault. The idea is to get your squad to die quickly and quietly so you can start shooting in the next phase.

OK, I'll try that tactic next time. I like blobbing, as it's fluffy, but shooting is definitely the strong point. so you're probably right about that.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
As for the Vets, they are no more or less cowardly than the rest of your army, but I want to say as nicely as I can there was no reason you should have gotten run off the board. A good Company Commander would be near his men, and he could force a regroup regardless of casualties or proximity or enemy units. Also if you had a heavy weapon in the squad of any decient ability... you could have attempted a death or glory. AC, ML, or Lascannon would have worked fine. Hell even a GL might have worked. It certainly would have worked better than running off the board. If you were set up right against the board edge, then I suppose there was nothing you could have done... a lesson learned for the next game, not to set up directly on the edge of the map.

The situation was a pain, probably a problem with my deployment. There were two objectives, pretty close together, So I set up the vets close to the nearer one (on the right) and my blob opposite the second one, on the left. The CCS started out within 12" of the vets, but had to move away from them to stay covered behind the blob as it took casualties - so they lost the Company Standard re-roll. As a result they failed their first morale test (as they always do) and ran straight off the board (as they always do). So it's a mix of 'fluffy' bad dice-rolls and bad deployment. I'm now contemplating two possible lists, will post them both.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
All this being said. GK are probably the hardest to kill list in the game. The fact that you gave up after 3 turns is unfortunate. Taking down one squad of GK is a huge loss for the other side. I am not sure exactly what you had left, but a fully loaded GK squad is worth probably 3 or 4 of your own. But beyond that, I would say that your list wasn't geared to handle GK, and moreso, none of our infantry options are particularly great against GK except maybe a ton of plasma vets. I would intersted in finding out if a Techpriest and a few plasma servitors would have fared.

As mentioned, they were Grey Hunters, not Grey Knights, but I took out one squad with the blob shooting and RR charge, while the other shook off about 6 grenade launchers and a missile launcher, remaining pretty much intact on top of me. Lesson learned.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
It's always unfortunate when a commander loses his men in a hopeless fight. May the Emperor protect you in your next battle.

Danke, the assistance of fictional deities is something we all need in our darkest hours

Lt Lathrop wrote:
IG are not meant for melee. Powerfist is pointless to have, and is expensive for something you won't use... and if you do... it means the squad is already dead. Bodyguard is fine, although probably not the most useful at 1000pts when those points could be used better for something more powerful. Mortar is nice against horde armies. Standard is one of my favs. Medic is junk. IG toughness and saves are too low. A squad is more likely to get shot to hell and back before the medic ever gets the opportunity to save anyone. Especially in a 5 man squad. Also, feelz no pain only works on the last wound, so is less effective with the heavy weapon team in the squad. Also you would probably rather have the medic take a bullet before the HWT, CCS, or Standard Bearer.

Medic switched for 2 bodyguards then, freeing up points for other things.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Again, melee is a bad place to be. LC is an IC and can be singled out in melee. Thus he will most likely get destroyed in melee and won't get the opportunity to use his fist (if your opponent knows what he is doing anyway). Plasma pistol is meh. I would say a boltgun would be best, so he can match the rapid fire of any of the squads he is likely to join.

I've dropped him anyway, but I was looking at his BS5 and thinking a plasma pistol would be darn useful with that.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
IG are not melee. IG are not melee. IG are not melee. Drop the Priest. Also his bonuses are only given if the squad assaults. Which trust me... IG are not melee. IG will not get the assault. We have no fleet, no open topped transports, no jump infantry... etc. You will be assaulted before you can.

Fair do's.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Ok. PCS are basically useless, but flamers let them support your lines while giving orders and they correct the crappy BS3.

That was my thought - a cheap SWS with orders.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Good. AC and GLs have great synergy.

(Infantry squads)That's going to be a strong theme for me I think.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
I like. Keep your CCS and LC near these guys, BiD orders will be their friends.

(Lascannon squad) yeah that's exactly the plan.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Second platoon is a huge waste. The first was ok, as it lets you take a ton of extra infantry for cheap, and gives you access to HWS. A second platoon should never be used until you fill the first one. PCS are pretty much useless. BS3 5 man squads have no useful role, except as casualties and a few basic orders. Platoons are basically for creating meat shields. Their infantry have BS3 which is crappy especially when you start missing with all of your heavy weapon shots, and they have a very low density of special weapons. Special weapons are necessary if you expect to accomplish anything.

See I was thinking of the 2nd PCS as a cheaper SWS, and I needed two troops choices without the vets. I'll leave the rest of my comments on platoons until you've seen my two new lists...

Lt Lathrop wrote:
RRs are starting to warm up on me. But meltabombs is not an awful idea. Because of their long range assaults, after they hit a squad with their lances, they can go tank hunting later. I would recommend trying to fill out this squad. It is a one hit wonder, and you want to get as much damage as you can to finish the job swiftly, as they cannot survive a prolonged assault.

Yeah they rock at what they're supposed to do.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Nope. Both are ICs and will be targeted first. They will die before either of them have a chance to attack at I1. Blobing ACs is foolish. When your squads get assaulted, you just lose the ability to fire 2 squads instead of 1... and you are basically locking in two squads to die horribly, and probably will keep the assault going just long enough to end it in your turn... allowing your opponent to just hop from squad to squad without being shot at.

Ah good point. I thought blobbing would give the Lord Commissar a wider area of effect (one model within 6" gives 20 men stubborn and LD10) but I suppose it's not all that worth it unless it's a killpoint game.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Cover would be better for protecting your CCS than a medic. If you are moving around the LC or Priest, the squads count as moving and you won't be able to fire your HWTs. A HWS with las is not god like firepower. You can only fire at 1 target per turn. That is 1 vehicle (maybe) per turn. The individual ACs will probably do more than the lascannons will. Troopers and pask were a point sink, Vets are not. 2 Platoons are a point sink.

OK, not so sure that 2 platoons is that much of a problem (you get 2 troops choices, and the PCS is just another SWS with orders) but I'll be careful about overestimating the LC HW squad.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
Good Idea, OoTF is a great option, does a lot to protect your flanks when you set up near the board edge. Since it isn't infallible, you should always plan to have that be an issue.

Willdo. I Think I'll go cruising/smoke launchers on the first turn with my LRBT, with the RR's guarding it's rear in the first turn it shows up.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
IG are not melee. GLs would be better than melta.

Meleeing a rhino with grenades or meltabombs is just as effective for IG as anyone else, but maybe the points can be better spent.

Lt Lathrop wrote:
List lacks a lot of anti horde, and anti MEQ. BS3 is iffy at best. You have a lot of wasted points on bodies, but lack a lot of firepower. I would forsee you getting rolled over by a mech SM list again, or even worse, a fast infantry list. Or any horde list will probably do you in.

Well let's see what you think of this list (the other one was a Straken variation of my original list, I think I'll leave that for another time):


CCS (50)
Standard 15
2 Bodyguards 30
Standard 15
2 Grenade Launchers 10
Master of the Fleet 30
150pts

Platoon 1:
PCS (30)
2x Flamer 10
40pts

Infantry squad (50)
Sergeant has PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts

Above squad x4 (300pts)

Heavy weapon squad (60)
3 Lascannons 45
105pts

Special weapon squad (35)
2 flamers 10
Demo charge 20
65pts

Veteran squad (70)
3x GL 15
AC 10
95pts


Rough Rider squad (55)
+2 RR 10
Sgt has meltabombs 5
80pts

LRBT (150)
Hull LC 15
165pts

Total: 1000pts

Opinions?

And Ringarin, thanks for your input - I'm going to take some conscripts when I have enough models, just now I'm stretching my proxies to the limit as it is. When I've got enough dudes I like the idea of a massive assault blob with Lord Commissar and priest hidden in back, and Creed's 'For Cadia' orders, just going crazy

Dude your CCS has two Standards?

That gives you another 15 points to play with.

I knew something was up! Danke

Edit: all lies. I didn't notice that. so, 1 more GL in the CCS and another RR. Yays!

What's your plan for SWS? I never really considered using them, always seemed a little fragile.

Considering your sticking to a theme and not including plasma or melta, I think its good. You've got Demos, rough riders, power weapons, battlecannons and LacC to deal with Marines.

You blobbing at all or you planning on keeping them all seperate?


Oh if you get a chance would appreicate your input on a thread I started in tactics

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276865.page

Probably put it in the wrong place to be honest, and apologies if it looks like i.m trying to bougart your thread.

I'll post more later, but I needed to address something. IIRC I said that medics only affect the last wound. Thus they would be less effective in squads with multiple wound models. I was corrected by my roommate, who was correct in saying Feel no Pain works on all wounds. I still think Medics aren't worth the points, but they are a little more viable than I originally let on.

Captain Roderick wrote:Ah, slight confusion, it's Space Wolves - Grey Hunters are their tac squads - that I've been playing against. A lot of the Grey Knight comments will still be relevant however, as they're pretty similar in style if not stats. The lack of anti-mech was something I was trying to redress in the above list, but after your comments I've removed the IC's - I'll post a new list for you to chew apart at the end

My bad. Lucky though that I was close enough though.

Captain Roderick wrote:I'd love to play against blueberries. My army would make tasty jam out of them! *ahem* Yeah stormtroopers are staying home now.

It has been brought to my attention that 5-man squads with 2x melta are fairly efficient at deepstriking behind large tanks... deliviering a decient strike against enemy armor. I personally think the squad is still a bit of a sink, and two melta won't always get the job done, and they will only get 1 try. But others have reported this to be a particularly potent squad.

Captain Roderick wrote:OK, I'll try that tactic next time. I like blobbing, as it's fluffy, but shooting is definitely the strong point. so you're probably right about that.

IIRC you can choose to blob during deployment, after you know your enemy. Decide what will be best. Do you need tarpits? Do you need speedbumps?

Captain Roderick wrote:As mentioned, they were Grey Hunters, not Grey Knights, but I took out one squad with the blob shooting and RR charge, while the other shook off about 6 grenade launchers and a missile launcher, remaining pretty much intact on top of me. Lesson learned.

Against Marines, it is a pain for a lot of armies, because AP3 is significantly harder to achieve than AP4. However for IG, AP3 can be gotten from tanks. Most of our tanks have ways of reaching AP3 without too much cost. I recommend strongly having a spread of tanks that can handle AP3 with large blasts, that way you can hand your opponent a delicious Speeece Mahreeen Pie... then watch his face as you force him to eat it. Short of that, Plasma is the only infantry option. Lascannon can do it, but why do you want to waste an expensive lascannon shot on a single marine? (Unless it is multi wound, then instadeath is hilarious... but you can get instadeath with tanks too, btw.)

Captain Roderick wrote:Danke, the assistance of fictional deities is something we all need in our darkest hours

The Emperor, beloved by all, protects his children. I recommend you find your copy of the Imperial Uplifting Primer, it will have everything you need to become a better soldier. No IG soldier should be without it (No seriously, the Commissars will shoot you if you can't produce it on request).

Captain Roderick wrote:Medic switched for 2 bodyguards then, freeing up points for other things.

Again, I was wrong on the Medic... but it is still too expensive for its cost. BGs let you do essentially the same thing. When you allocate wounds... put as many wounds (up to 2) on your company commander, and as many as you can on one of your two BGs... then move all the wounds to the BG. He will most likely die, but just soaked 4 wounds for the squad as a whole. Not to mention BGs can shoot and fight in CC.

Captain Roderick wrote:I've dropped him anyway, but I was looking at his BS5 and thinking a plasma pistol would be darn useful with that.

It is a matter of a single pistol shot. You will probably only get 1 before the assault starts. That won't make or break a game, and ends up being a loss of precious points.

Captain Roderick wrote:Ah good point. I thought blobbing would give the Lord Commissar a wider area of effect (one model within 6" gives 20 men stubborn and LD10) but I suppose it's not all that worth it unless it's a killpoint game.

If you want a commisar in the blob, give one of the infantry squads a Commissar. He will still give stubborn (which is the most useful bonus he gives) and will give you rerolls. Keep in mind that he shoots sergeants (randomly) first and often your sarge is the one with the power weapon or otherwise expensive gear. So don't fail too many rolls, or don't give the sergeants too much gear. I would probably only have the Commissar in squads of 30+

Captain Roderick wrote:OK, not so sure that 2 platoons is that much of a problem (you get 2 troops choices, and the PCS is just another SWS with orders) but I'll be careful about overestimating the LC HW squad.

It will miss 50%. You can fail against Av14 on a roll of 1-4, so only 33% there. So 3 shots, 1.5 hits, .5 glance/pens. With BiD you get to reroll misses, so its 75% hits... which is marginally better. Lascannon are definately needed, and they are powerful. But they are not a perfect solution.

Captain Roderick wrote:Meleeing a rhino with grenades or meltabombs is just as effective for IG as anyone else, but maybe the points can be better spent.

You can DoG a tank shock with ranged weapons. So a long range weapon would be as good as melta bombs. The difference is a long range weapon can be fired at range, where a melta bomb is useless unless you are assaulting... which is a bad idea... or being tank shocked, which a range weapon will do just as well with.

Captain Roderick wrote:CCS (50)
Standard 15
2 Bodyguards 30
Standard 15
2 Grenade Launchers 10
Master of the Fleet 30
150pts

Good, maybe consider a Chimera?

Captain Roderick wrote:Platoon 1:
PCS (30)
2x Flamer 10
40pts

Good.

Captain Roderick wrote:Infantry squad (50)
Sergeant has PW 10
AC 10
GL 5
75pts

Above squad x4 (300pts)

So 5 total? Yea, looks fine. Make sure that PCS is where it needs to be so it can flamer before an incomming assault hits the mob.

Captain Roderick wrote:Heavy weapon squad (60)
3 Lascannons 45
105pts

Good.

Captain Roderick wrote:Special weapon squad (35)
2 flamers 10
Demo charge 20
65pts

Demo... hmm... demo good, squad bad. The squad is a total 65pts. Marbo is 65 pts, and he can Democharge harder than this squad ever will. Take Marbo instead.

Captain Roderick wrote:Veteran squad (70)
3x GL 15
AC 10
95pts

Solid. I've done a lot of damage with this squad.

Captain Roderick wrote:Rough Rider squad (55)
+2 RR 10
Sgt has meltabombs 5
80pts

Good.

Captain Roderick wrote:LRBT (150)
Hull LC 15
165pts

You really needed this.

List is lacking a anti MEQ. Right now you have the RRs first charge, the Russ and a single democharge (which you can't use until the enemy is on top of you). Horde shouldn't be too tough, and mechanized lists you will do fine. I feel like you will struggle with Av14, but you shouldn't see much of that, so no worries... and you will struggle with MEQ. Just hope you don't go up against a player with a special place in his Mark 7 Armor for Land Raiders (which is barely viable at 1000pts... so don't worry too too much).

Captain Roderick wrote:So gentlemen,
I played a 1000 point game this week, didn't do a batrep for it as it was just a quickie and went... appallingly. I bumped up the last list I showed you with a small unit of melta-stormtroopers (as he brought a recently-acquired dakkapred), pask, and some other bits and pieces, and it was Dawn of War. result being that he unloaded 2 squads of maxed out grey hunters in rhinos on my front lines, had a mm/hf speeder on top of me turn 1, and I was essentially swamped, only able to target 1 unit per turn with the blob and caught in tactical indecision. I surrendered turn 3, when he'd only lost a single unit of grey hunters and most of my army was decimated. My Vets in particular were lacklustre, being tank-shocked off the board pretty sharpish. Cowards as usual, they've just seen too much to want to risk their lives.

That's the thing about moving up in points. The fire power increases so you have to adapt. Here are a few thoughts though:

1. I was a bit surprised that the rhinos were able to reach you. With all those autocannons you should have at least immobilized them.
2. With this amount of pointage, like it or not you need tanks to kill tanks. i.c. Meltas on Chimeras, Manticore, or Hydras, a LRBT never cuts it.
3. PCS are one of your best assets in your army, but if you are going to give them special weapons they NEED to be in a Chimera.
4. As you may already know, storm troopers are fluffy, but not much else. They are one of the few, over-costed units in the entire codex. (and that's saying a lot)
5. If you do not want to spend too much on tanks, but want to kill tanks, and still remain somewhat casual I'd put around 1 or 2 sentinels... a sentinel, 35pts... the look on the opponents face when you outflank and shoot/assault his pred... PRICELESS! (remember that a 1k pt game is played on a 4x4) lol The only reason why hardly anyone uses them is because they eat an FA slot.
6. In a 1k pts game though, and if it were me, I would drop the priest, bodyguard, medic and Lord Commissar (a basic commissar is cheaper and not an IC).

All in all I think it still has the spirit that I think you want it to have. Its fluffy and not overkill. Don't worry too much about losing. After all, if you did decide to trick out your IG it would almost be impossible for your marine friend to win. Marines and MEQ have difficulty against IG, especially Hybrids. Mainly because Marines are known to be very versatile but the IG is known to have an answer for anything any army can throw at it.

Do you plan to post pictures anytime soon? Saw those links to minis you used, I think they looked great. Hopefully you have pictures next time. Cheers!