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I said you are likely to wipe out whatever it lands on, not that the subsequent landing would be safe!

Well, landing on things is very risky in itself.

If you are trying to pop vehicles a 1,2,3 or 4 on the damage table will cause mishap. and on a 5 you are deepstriking into difficult and dangerous terrain.

As for squad killing, if anything has an invulnerable, you run the risk of mishap or if you happen to roll a 1 on the wound roll you will mishap.

IMO, if you target the weak things on the board, you are unlikely to mishap. Any thing with high armor value or an invulnerable and you are likely to mishap.

FlingitNow wrote:
What is your point? Grey Hunters are better than Choas Space Marines? Chaos Space aren't the only troops choice available. Bezerkers would tear GH a new one, Plague Marines would out last them, then you have thousand sons and noise marines...

Name another army that has such tactical flexibility and raw hitting power in their troops choices? The 'Nids now possibly in terms of hitting power, but little to no tactical flexibility.

Space Wolves maybe Grey Hunters are awesome as are bloodclaws when used correctly. But neither has the raw hiiting power of the zerkers or survivability of the plague marines or fire power of the other 2 options.

You say GH can have 2 special weapons but only if they number 10 which means they can't have a champion (wolfguard) in their squad (presuming they have a trasnport). They have some other good options too but just not the flexibility or hitting power available to CSM.

Each of those things you mentioned really doesn't matter much since the grey hunters cost so much less.

10 GH with 2 meltaguns and a mark of the wulfen WITH their special banner is 180 points. That's 9 noisemarines with NO special upgrades whatsoever, so they're really just paying for high initiative, and if the GH wanted they could sit at range and win just with more guys. Or they could close to 12" and have superior weapons. For only 5 points more, they could have 2 plasmaguns and win the ranged fight easily.

They would also outnumber berserkers, especially if those berserkers chose to bring a champion of any sort armed with any decent weapon. We're talking 10 guys versus 7 or even 6, and they'll take casualties on the way in [not to mention the GH could charge, and be superior].

Plaguemarines are probably the best bet, but are again outnumbered. Drop the wulfen and the banner and that 10 GH squad with 2 special weapons costs only 155 points. That's 6 or 7 basic plaguemarines with nothing and the GH have weapons that get past their FNP. 1ksons have the best shot with their marine-killing guns, but for the cost of the 1ksons squad the GH could just be in a rhino, and if the GH ever made it to cc the 1ksons would be horribly mauled, and in the metagame the GH are way more equipped to deal with a variety of targets than the 1ksons.

Due to points cost, the only unit that compares with GH in the chaos codex is the basic CSM. And when you compare the two, the CSM has only one leadership up on the GH, and that's completely negated by the fact that the GH auto-rally, CAN rally below half, and can't be chased down from combat.

CSM vs SM is a balanced comparison. SM can't have 2 special weapons and don't have 2x ccw. SM depent on sergeant for the same leadership as CSM. SM, though, have the options of combat squadding and falling back automatically [handy when you auto-regroup] but CSM can have 20 man squads if they want, which has its own uses.

GH though? Far, far superior to both.

CSM vs SM is a balanced comparison. SM can't have 2 special weapons and don't have 2x ccw. SM depent on sergeant for the same leadership as CSM. SM, though, have the options of combat squadding and falling back automatically [handy when you auto-regroup] but CSM can have 20 man squads if they want, which has its own uses.

GH though? Far, far superior to both.

A Tac marine is also more expensive, sorry they are the worst of the bunch and some way behind the CSM and GHs are definitely the best I'm not arguing there. But they are not as tactically flexible on their own, nor do they have the punch available to a CSM player through the shear weight of troops choices available.

So let's suppose Berzerkers are 21pts each (don't have my codex here for points values and I don't use them enough to be that familiar with their point-breaks). That means 8 Berzerkers could charge 180pts of 10 Grey Hunters (two Meltaguns, Mark of the Wulfen, Banner of Scything Talons).

So the Berzerkers go first at I5. Each one has four attacks on the charge, hitting on 3+, wounding on 3+, and saving on 3+. So 32 attacks, 21 hits, 14 wounds, 9 saves, 5 dead Space Wolves.

The Grey Hunters Counter-Assault 72% of the time thanks to their Ld8.

So 72% of the time we'll see four Grey Hunters attack with 3 attacks each for 12 attacks, and one with 1D6 Rending attacks, hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, and saving on 3+. Re-rolling 1s to hit. The four non-wulfen get 7 hits, 4 wounds, and 4 unsaved wound, for one dead Berzerker. If the Wulfen gets 6 attacks, and hits with 4, and wounds with 2, supposing that one is Rending we'll see another dead Berzerker.

So that's the Berzerkers won the combat by a margin of 3, on average and with the Mark of the Wulfen added in and sweetened. So there's a 28% chance of the Grey Hunters heroically standing their ground to a squad of Berzerkers that now outnumbers them. Otherwise they have a 72% chance of attempting to evade a Sweeping Advance (say they have a 1/3 chance of evading it, someone else explain the calculation for figuring the chance of rolling higher than someone on 1D6!).

And 28% of the time the Grey Hunters won't counter-assault and attack back with 8 attacks and 1D6 Rending attacks. So 5 hit, 3 wound, one unsaved wound, while assuming 6 hits from the Wulfen, 3 hits, 2 wounds with 1 Rending, then another unsaveable wound. Same deal, Berzerkers win by 3.

If the Grey Hunters charge, then the Berzerkers don't get the benefit of Furious Charge, and so all 8 hit at the same time as the charging Wolves. So 24 hits, because they'll only have 3 attacks each, hitting on 3+, wounding on 4+, saving on 3+. 16 hits, 8 wounds, 5 saves, 3 unsaved wounds. So the Berzerkers would only win by 1 if they were charged by the Grey Hunters. Grey Hunters now have a decent 56% of not running away.

Of course, you could argue that your Grey Hunters could shoot on the way in, but so could've the Berzerkers, and both could have removed casualties in such a way as to prevent a charge.

But supposed the Grey Hunters don't run, and don't suffer any No Retreat! wounds.

So six Berzerkers hit at the same time as five Grey Hunters, 18 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 2 unsaved wounds resulting in two dead Grey Hunters. Two Grey Hunters have 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1 wound, 0 unsaved wounds. One Grey Hunter with the Mark of the Wulfen: 6 attacks, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound. Again the Berzerkers win by 1.

Unless something moves in to save the Grey Hunters, they're not going to survive a sustained melee with a similar value in Berzerkers.

Counter-Assault won't even work against Plague Marines, and Noise Marines will use their I5 to beat the hash out of the Space Wolves. Against the Thousand Suns, yeah, it just might work, so long as they let you charge and didn't simply walk away and shoot the Grey Hunters to poop in a firefight.

Anyhow, this is not the place for such a discussion. How about we take it else where.