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So there's a problem in Codex: Chaos Space Marines and you'll notice it if you try to apply Fabius Bile's Enhanced Warriors rule. Specifically what is a Chaos Space Marine? There is a problem with the amphiboly of this term in the rules, although the context makes it clear that it refers to #2 out of:

1. Chaos Space Marines, all the units in the book
2. Chaos Space Marines, the entry including Chosen, Havocs, and Bikers in the Forces of Chaos Section
3. Chaos Space Marines, the entry in the Army List section

So I'm going to propose an alternative nomenclature that GW can use the next time they publish this book. Firstly, the book should be renamed "Codex: Chaos Marines". Whereas Loyalist Marines fight for the order and righteousness of the Imperium, a human realm in real space, the Renegades and Traitors fight for their own selfish aims and for the interests of Chaos, an inhuman realm beyond reality.

Plus it means that the abbreviation CSM can mean "Codex: Space Marines" exclusively rather than also Chaos Space Marines, and we can ue the abbreviation CCM for "Codex: Chaos Marines".

So that covers the book.

Secondly, the entry in the Forces of Chaos section should be renamed "Renegades", denoting those Chaos Marines that have turned away from the Imperium but have yet to fall fully into the clutches of Chaos. What are currently referred to as the Cult squads would be grouped as Traitors; those who have actively turned to the Dark Powers and fight for the Dark Gods rather than themselves.

Finally, the entry in the Army List section should be renamed "Battle Squad". This would make Chaos Marine Renegades be composed of Chaos Marine Chosen Squads, Chaos Marine Terminator Squads, Chaos Marine Havoc Squads, Chaos Marine Biker Squads, Chaos Marine Raptor Squads*, and Chaos Marine Battle Squads.

Fabius Bile's Enhanced Warriors would then refer to Renegades, as he may enhance Renegades, but performs different tasks for the Legions, such as lobotomising Berzerkers, re-wiring Noise Marines, amputating mutations for the Iron Warriors, etc. In general Enhanced would confer Fearless and +1S.

Traitors would be unlocked by an HQ choice with the same Mark:

Possessed
All have Scout, Fearless, standard profile.

If Mark of Khorne (+1A), then Power Weapons, Furious Charge

If Mark of Tzeentch (+1Iv), then Psykers, Doombolt

If Mark of Nurgle (+1T), then Feel No Pain, Poison (4+)

If Mark of Slaanesh (+1I), then Rending, Fleet

Cult Marines would be upgrades of regular Renegade units:

Plague Marines
As Renegades, but Mark of Nurgle, -1I , Feel No Pain, Defensive Grenades, and Stubborn

Berzerkers
As Renegades, but Mark of Khorne, +1WS, Furious Charge, and Rage, and Stubborn

Rubric Marines
As Renegades, but Mark of Tzeentch, Relentless, Runic Weapons (as Space Wolves), Fearless

Noise Marines
As Renegades, but Mark of Slaanesh, +1BS, Fleet, Sonic Weapons (as current Codex), and Stubborn

Obliterators
As Renegade Terminators, but Mark of Chaos Glory, +1W, Obliterator Weaponry, and Stubborn

Daemons would now take up space in the Force Organization Chart, would be able to charge on the turn they're summoned as before , but would be limited to entering via summoning as before so Greater Daemons would possess Champions and Sorcerers or basing off Icons, and would need one mortal unit (Renegade or Traitor per unit in Force Org), so no all-Daemon armies.

Lesser Daemons
As Codex: Chaos Daemons except Chaos Marine Psychic Powers replace equivalent Daemonic Gifts.

Greater Daemons
As Codex: Chaos Daemons except Chaos Marine Psychic Powers replace equivalent Daemonic Gifts.

Daemon Princes
As Codex: Chaos Daemons except Chaos Marine Psychic Powers replace equivalent Daemonic Gifts.

Finally, Traitors would require a similarly Marked HQ choice. You could only take Berzerkers if you have a Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne, a Chaos Lieutenant with the Mark of Khorne, a Greater Daemon, or a Daemon Prince with the Mark of Khorne. Other Marks would include a Chaos Sorcerer and an Aspiring Sorcerer. All Chaos Sorcerers would be able to cast two powers and select two from either the generic Chaos powers or the appropriate Marked powers.

The Chaos Lieutenant and Aspiring Sorcerer would be a minor two-for-one HQ choices, with the Lieutenant adding a select rule to the unit he joins such as: Tank Hunters, Infiltrate, Hit and Run, or Stealth. The Chaos Demagogue would be a minor Psycker, like a W2 version of the current Chaos Sorcerer with the option to cast a single power (two with the Mark of Tzeentch), and otherwise Aspiring Sorcerer stats. Character models would have the same Path of Chaos options to either be recent Renegades, or further down the path to outright Traitors and Daemonhood by taking particular Marks which would unlock the options available to them, as well as Traitor units of the same Mark. Daemonic Possession upgrades, and vehicles with Daemonic Possession such as Defilers, would require a Sorcerer of some capacity in the army.

Fabius Bile would count as a Chaos Lieutenant.

Psychic powers would as like they are here.

So the list structure would be:

Headquarters:
1/Slot: Chaos Lord, Chaos Sorcerer, Summoned Greater Daemon, Daemon Prince
2/Slot: Aspiring Sorcerer of Chaos, Chaos Lieutenant

Elites:
Chaos Marine Terminator Squad
Chaos Marine Chosen Squad
Chaos Marine Possessed
Chaos Dreadnoughts
Summoned Lesser Daemons

Troops:
Chaos Marine Battle Squad
Summoned Lesser Daemons

Fast Attack:
Chaos Marine Biker Squad
Chaos Marine Raptor Squad
Summoned Lesser Daemons

Heavy Support
Chaos Marine Havoc Squad
Chaos Marine Predator
Chaos Marine Vindicator
Chaos Marine Land Raider
Chaos Marine Defiler
Summoned Lesser Daemons

I don't think Lesser Daemons should be selectable as TRoops otherwise I like it I'd also reduce the number of lesser daemons available to 1 per deity otherwise the Daemons Codex becomes redundant.

So lesser daemons are:

Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Horrors or Plague Bearers.

You may notice that the number of Lesser Daemons units is fixed at six, three as Troops, one as Elites, Fast Attack, Heavy Support. Greater Daemons would need a matching Daemon Prince, Sorcerer, or Lord (or Lieutenant or Aspiring Sorcerer).

So there's very much a reason for the Chaos Daemons Codex: all Daemon armies, special characters, Daemon rules (Daemonic Assault, etc).

Allow them to take as many FA and El Daemons as they want. I don't like them as troops in a CCM army. Chaos Marines have the best troops choices in the game without needing Daemons anyway. Also reducing eth flavours available again stops the Daemons codex from become largely redundant. I know it would still be the only way to field all daemon armies and to get Sp Characters, but is that all the Daemon Codex should be for?

no dreads?

doing away with or toning down the crazed rule would be a boon.

something like:

roll of a 1: dread is at minus 2 ws & bs this round
roll of a 6: gets to reroll any to-hit rolls this round.
roll of a 2-5: sane

the fire frenzy rule as it is, is just a mess and a false interpretation of the rule has been taken for granted almost everywhere making using dreads a socially risky idea.

Other than that there are some really neat ideas in your list.

edit:

Fast attack looks just as weak as before.

some ideas:

bikers need a little extra to justify their cost, maybe +1s and a free special weapon ?
(would be cool if they could tank shock non-vehicle models, but meh)

Raptors: hit and run would be nice, the relentless usr would be good making plasmaguns useful. more than 2 special weapons?

Spawn.... Anything but what it currently is..
swap fearless for stubborn, +1w and a 5+ save.
No longer a kp ?

FlingitNow:

They don't need the Daemons. The Daemons are there for flavour: you may have noticed that the list is pretty heavily balanced against taking them. If you want an actual Daemon army then you'd need to use the Chaos Daemons codex. This list just lets the Chaos Space Marines use a unit or two of Daemons that have the same Marks of Chaos as the HQ and with matching mortal units. A Chaos Daemon army not only lets you take more than one, but lets you mix and match more chaotically.

arachnid:

I cannot believe I forgot them. I've added them. Regarding Chaos Dreadnoughts I would keep the Crazed! rule as it is but re-word it to emphasize that the Dreadnought's line of sight is the same as the arc of fire from its weapons, so that it turns towards the closest unit within its weapon's arc of fire.

In addition:
Right Arm can be:
Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon w/Twin-Linked Bolters
Twin-Linked Heavy Bolters
Twin-Linked Lascannons
Twin-Linked Autocannons
Plasma Cannon
Multi-Melta

Left Arm can be:
Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon w/Twin-Linked Bolters
Thunder Hammer w/Twin-Linked Bolters
Power Scythe: +1D6 Power Weapon attacks
Cyclone Missile Launcher
Twin-Linked Autocannons

Options:
Extra Armour
Twin-Linked Bolters may be upgraded to Heavy Flamers or Melta Guns
May have Marks of Chaos (matching HQ)
-Mark of Khorne: +1WS, +1A
-Mark of Tzeentch: 5+ Invulnerable
-Mark of Slaanesh: Sonic Weapons
-Mark of Nurgle: As Venerable (re-roll damage)

Regarding Fast Attack:

If you want Hit and Run Bikers or Raptors, that's what the Lieutenant is for, to give them that "Veteran Skill" - Give that model a Bike or a Jump Pack and have them accompany the unit. I think Bikers would have their points reduced, but they're just not that bad at their current level: Remember that they have the same equipment as their ground-pounding brethren and thus the same advantage over Loyalist Bikers: Pistols and Close Combat Weapons and the ability to use them. Still, 25 points a model would be more appropriate.

Plus both units would have the capacity to be upgraded to Traitors should the player so choose.

They don't need the Daemons. The Daemons are there for flavour: you may have noticed that the list is pretty heavily balanced against taking them. If you want an actual Daemon army then you'd need to use the Chaos Daemons codex.

Fair enough but I still think it is redundant for Chaos Marines to be able to field 90% of the Daemons army list. I like how it works but I still think 4 types of lesser Daemon is fine but hey I'd rather have CMM have all the daemons as in Chaos Daemons than the dumb way it works now!

I also think Chaos Marine Legionaires (the ones that can take marks of choas, please no more stupid icons) should all get +1 attack for being veterans or a veteran skill. They should be a seperate squad, renegades work as you've listed as 1 troops choice but no choice to get marks. Legionaires get +1A or a Veteran skill (which you think is best) and can take marks fo chaos (giving you your bezerkers, plague marines etc) but are all veterans because they've been fighting the Imperium for 10,000 years...

I also think summoning and icons should work as they did in the 3rd Ed Codex the only difference being the icon only carries the mark of the model carrying it. Unmarked uicons can be used to help DSing Daemons but don't allow any daemons to be fielded (in the Daemons can only be come on if there is an icon of their god restriction). Also if every model in the army bears the same mark (not this does not preclude characters from bearing multiple marks) then every MODEL (not unit) gets an icon for free.

What do you think?

Fling It Now:

The Chaos Marine Renegades wouldn't need to get +1A for being veterans because they would get the standard Close Combat Weapon, Bolt Pistol, and Bolter.

Renegades get upgraded to Traitors according to the scheme I've laid out, so long as they have an HQ choice with a matching Mark of Chaos.

They can have so-called "Veteran Skills" by being accompanied by a Chaos Lieutenant, as I've described.

I prefer the way Icons work now, except that they'd just be general Icons like Personal Icons rather than conferring a Mark of Chaos. If you wanted the Mark, then you'd need an HQ of a similar Mark. The Mark of Chaos would then confer the various options, and taking all the options would give you the various Cult Troops as we know them. In addition Sorcerers would have access to a "Summon Daemons" psychic power as detailed in the link to my psychic power wishlist.

Possessed are a choice in the list, unlike the other Traitors, because they can only be taken if they have a Marked HQ, and then with all the bonuses associated with that Mark.

That would make Abbadon special in that only armies including him could freely mix and match Marks of Chaos

That would make Abbadon special in that only armies including him could freely mix and match Marks of Chaos

So all non-abbadon armies would be single God? Surely any chaos lord should be allowed to take all 4 marks should he so choose?

Lieutenants conferring Veteran Skills is an interesting way of bringing them back. Would this mean that full Chaos Lords cannot confer them, though?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FlingitNow wrote:

That would make Abbadon special in that only armies including him could freely mix and match Marks of Chaos

So all non-abbadon armies would be single God? Surely any chaos lord should be allowed to take all 4 marks should he so choose?

By my reading, you could still mix marks, so long as you had an HQ with a mark of every god's mark being used.

Thus, an army with a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch and a Sorcerer of Slaanesh could take both Rubric Marines and Noise Marines, etc.

Orkeosaurus:

I think that Chaos Lords should confer army-wide benefits, rather than to just to the units they are accompanying, as well as remaining wreaking machines. The Lieutenants would be like Space Marine Chaplains and Librarians are currently, W2 Veterans Sergeants. I figure something like the Icon of Chaos Glory effect (re-roll to Leadership tests) for all units so long as they survive, and perhaps the ability to take squads of Chosen as Troops.

Also, you are correct: A player could have four Chaos HQ, say four Lieutenants, with different Marks enabling you to take units with each Mark.

See, I thought that Fabius Bile only applied to the unit Chaos Space Marines. I mean, I can see how it would make sense for other units, but I mean, I'm sticking with RAW in this particular case.

Anywhoo, it does suck that Chaos Daemons and Chaos Marines cannot be included in the same army, barring Apocalypse. However, I am liking your current suggestions Nurglitch.

Yeah I get better now so it is quite restrictive in many ways but you have far more choice. I like it now that I understand it better

http://pix.motivatedphotos.com/2008/10/1/633584502784383285-muchwin.jpg

Seriously, this is far better than the currant C:CSM. Can you write this up in a word document, please!

I'll work up a PDF.

FlingitNow wrote:Chaos Marines have the best troops choices in the game without needing Daemons anyway.

You haven't READ the grey hunters entry in the SW codex, have you?

Same cost, ATSKNF, counterattack, cheaper [WAY cheaper] special weapons [which they too can take two of], banner that re-rolls 1's, Mark of the Wulfen upgrade for same [or was it cheaper?] cost as aspiring champion upgrade. Still have bp/ccw and bolters.

You haven't READ the grey hunters entry in the SW codex, have you?

Same cost, ATSKNF, counterattack, cheaper [WAY cheaper] special weapons [which they too can take two of], banner that re-rolls 1's, Mark of the Wulfen upgrade for same [or was it cheaper?] cost as aspiring champion upgrade. Still have bp/ccw and bolters.

What is your point? Grey Hunters are better than Choas Space Marines? Chaos Space aren't the only troops choice available. Bezerkers would tear GH a new one, Plague Marines would out last them, then you have thousand sons and noise marines...

Name another army that has such tactical flexibility and raw hitting power in their troops choices? The 'Nids now possibly in terms of hitting power, but little to no tactical flexibility.

Space Wolves maybe Grey Hunters are awesome as are bloodclaws when used correctly. But neither has the raw hiiting power of the zerkers or survivability of the plague marines or fire power of the other 2 options.

You say GH can have 2 special weapons but only if they number 10 which means they can't have a champion (wolfguard) in their squad (presuming they have a trasnport). They have some other good options too but just not the flexibility or hitting power available to CSM.

Dreadclaw Assault Boat
The Dreadclaw Assault Boat is an after-market modification combining the traditional Mars-Pattern Land Speeder with the traditional Mars-Pattern Astartes Drop Pod, creating a heretical combination that functions as an all-purpose assault boat for both planetary raids and boarding actions. While it may strike the observer as odd that every Chapter or Company that goes renegade eventually cannabalizes all of the Drop Pods and Land Speeders in their motor pools to create this highly-mobile hybrid, the design is a logical extension of both those standard template constructions in the context of a raiding force, which is what renegade Marine become when cut off from the industrial might of the Forge Worlds. Just as the steps down the path of damnation are inevitable, so is the noble purposes of the Astartes' proud war machines perverted in the cause of selfishness and spite.

Unit Type: Vehicle (Immobile), BS4, AV11/11/11

Transport:
The Dreadclaw has a capacity for 12 models in Power Armour or 6 in Terminator Armour. It can transport a single Dreadnought.

Fire Points: 0
Access Points: 1 (underside)

Special Rules
Melta-Afterburners
The Dreadclaw is designed to cut through the hulls of enemy spacecraft before disgorging its cargo of howling madmen. Therefore when it enters the board via Deep Strike place a blast marker and anything under or touching the blast marker is hit by a S8 Melta hit at half-range. Roll to hit with the Blast marker as normal, and then the Dreadclaw is placed with its base centered on where the blast marker was placed, after all casualties are removed, and then mishaps are worked out as normal. Since it is not an open-topped vehicles, a unit arriving from reserves by Dreadclaw cannot assault in the turn it arrives, though they may still disembark and shoot or run.

Orbiter
The Dreadclaw is designed to be a light orbital craft to deliver and retrieve troops making raids. If a Dreadclaw has not executed a Deep Strike that turn, then it may be removed from the board at the end of the movement phase, along with any passengers that have boarded it, and placed in reserves.

That would have to be 250 Points at least. It implies no DS scatter but I presume that is not the intention (otherwise 350+ points). It is effectively a Mawloc (170) that hits harder AND transports troops around, so those troops can drop shoot and evacuate!!!

To OP if you ask me.

12 units in power armor AND 6 Terminators? Am I reading that right?

Can the troops disembark and\or assault the same turn they drop in? This one is HUGE in determining the points value, if I can pop it + crew with a Lascannon the turn after it drops then I personally don't care how many units it can carry or if it scatters! Otherwise you're dropping a large chunk of killing power anywhere you want with no penaltiy and I think it's too OP.

Why does it have a BS but no weapons?

EDIT: Clearification

FlingitNow:

The Melta is a blast weapon, and there's nothing similar to the Inertial Guidance system. Unlike the Mawloc nothing is moved out of the way: if you don't kill whatever its landing on, then a mishap is certain to occur. You trade off the Melta blast against the certainty of a Drop Pod.

ComputerGeek01, "12 models in Power Armour, and 6 in Terminator Armour" is supposed to imply that you can have either 12 models in Power Armour or 6 in Terminator Armour. I'll change it to clarify.

It has a weapon: the Melta Blast that it uses when it arrives on the board from reserves. Hence the BS4. This also requires clarification.

I probably should have iterated that a unit arriving from reserves by Dreadclaw cannot assault in the turn it arrives.

So the normal blast template not the Large blast? Well that does make a difference not sure why they need a BS though? Unless they are using BS to redirect their own landing point which is similar to the "Inertial Guidance system" rules?

Please clarify the exact steps taken when this arrives as I'm quite confused now (though i managed to guess how the Terminators and/or Power armour transport capacity worked).

FlingitNow:

Upon 3rd look I was still unclear: I'd managed to use the term "template" instead of marker. That's been corrected.

For the exact steps taken using the Melta-Afterburners
1. Successful reserve roll
2. Place blast marker
3. Roll to hit for blast marker (Scatter dice, if miss then 2D6-BS4)
4. Resolve hits, wounds, and saves from blast markers final position
5. Centre Dreadclaw on the position of the blast markers final position
6. Resolve Mishaps as normal
7. Passengers may or may not disembark, may not assault if they do so.

Cool I get it now that does greatly reduce it's effectiveness as a transport as you are unlikely to wipe out whatever it lands on. I can see people taking them empty and suiciding them taking their chances on the mishap table dependiong on points cost of course.

Now I'd say around 50 points seems fair.

Well, you are likely to wipe out whatever it lands on, just not guaranteed, so the notion is that people could try using them as suicide units but they'd be inefficient. The rules are written with the intention that Chaos players play Chaos because they like taking risks, and will enjoy burning a few enemy troops when they land to get close and deploy their squads up close and personal.

The Dreadclaw's ability to re-deploy is also supposed to emphasize the high-risk, high-reward mentality.

I think the question still remains, what is the BS for?

On the third step it says roll to hit for blast marker. so is it assumed you minus ballistic skill then? In any other situation i would say yes, but for all clarification it should be stated as it is both the weapon and the landing spot for the drop pod. Since with blast you minus BS and for deep strike you don't, specific wording should be included for clarity.

The BS is for the roll to hit with the blast marker, yes.

I like the idea, but just a few questions....
would it be roughly the same model as a drop pod?
what would happen regarding the melta blast if you got the "misplaced" result on the DS mishap chart?
with the ability to go back into reserve would it be able to use the melta attack each time it re-deployed (roughly like swooping hawks and their grenade packs)?
surely if it is like a drop pod you would never be able to disembark the vehicle if it landed in the middle of a large squad, even if a small blast is enough space to accommodate the vehicle?
if the answer to my second question is yes, surely 50 points is too cheap, as it could just be used and repeatedly redeployed just to get melta blasts with ap1 + 2D6 pen to pop heavy armour?

Gorechild:

Regarding the dimensions of the Dreadclaws, go see Forge World because they already have a model. I think it's drop-pod size.

Considering the Melta blast is resolved prior to any rolls being made on the Mishap table, I'd say nothing.

You're quite right in noting that while the Dreadclaw could land in the middle of a large squad, having used the Melta Afterburners to clear enough space, it may be the case that the passengers cannot disembark. That's okay, because unlike a Drop Pod the passengers don't have to disembark. Indeed, they can disembark, shoot, and then in their next turn re-embark and take off in the Dreadclaw.

I don't see a problem with the possibility of the Dreadclaw being repeatedly redeployed to take advantage of its Melta Afterburners. These vehicles don't have Drop Pod assault, so the earliest one can come in would be T2. Once arrived on T2, it would take until T3 to take off again. That gives the enemy a full turn to shoot it up. Once taken off, it could return on T4 if it makes the reserve roll. Then it could take off again on T5, and return on T6.

All that is presuming it doesn't mishap, isn't Immobilized or Destroyed, and has perfect reserve rolls. Seems balanced to me.

Well, you are likely to wipe out whatever it lands on,

I'd say very unlikely to wipe out whatever you land on. Say you land on a squad of 5 marines small blast template can only cover 3 max in most situations so that means at least 2 survive and of course he'll take the 3 casualities from not under template to ensure you misshap. A large unit of infantry and forget it. Likewise a vehicle you are pretty likely to penetrate but then only have a 50% chance of wrecking it so again the odds are against you.