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Storm Troopers now have ap3 guns, a bunch of special rules to. They also got both a hell pistol and a close combat weapon which increase their combat effectiveness. Not to mention you can also give them orders to. Storm troopers are also overpriced to. That's why I never see any guard players use them. Also only the HQ can get the 2 up save. Also you have a chance of failing you faith. It does happen and when it does it tends to turn the tide of battle. Also they are also limited to what weapons they can take, a space marine can take a rocket launcher or a plasma gun which sisters cannot.

So?
GWs decision was to price stormtroopers at 16p with better wargear and that from 10p.
SoBs were (are) absolutely dirt cheap for what they do. All points towards them being made more expensive and stuck with wargear addons included in the price.

So faith miscasts from time to time, big deal, all armies rely on dice luck so whats your point?
The times faith suceeeded it is overpowered and I see it being abused in all and every SoB army so far. The whole faith system is to complex, to powerful and will be changed to something simple. Remember, GW choose the noob kiddo approach now so we´ll see things simplified.

And tacs can take missiles but SoB cant? What kind of argument is that, SoB can take heavy flamers and tacs cant so there you have it right back.

The SoB army comes with a t h e m e and one of the things are poor long ranged AT power. Live with it instead of breaking the whole army by complaining other armies get missiles etc.
You might as well start crying that grey knights cant take lascannons in their troops, how unfair.

I think I am looking at it at wider perspective and not sceaming I wanted balanced stuff.

Well, I havent seen it, all I hear is want want want and for less points across the board.
Convince me!

First off let me ask you how much variety do you see in witchunter armies? They are all regular sob squads with rhinos + exocricsts and flying nuns or type 2. regular sister squads with rhinos + celestians and immolator spam. That is all the variety that exists. While those units are good units there is zero competition for any of those slots. Are you suggesting that everything in the army that is good should become worse to put them more into line with the current state of the codex? No instead certain things need to be brought up to make them viable to take.

The ones I see are a variety of SoB + induced IG to pure SoB.
Typically they consist of melta SoB rhinos and double flamer SoB rhinoes with excorcists and a crapload of faith to see them through melee.
I also often see repentia and some times flagelants.
The former is devastating but only if the player knows how to use them (often they are used as a point and click unit that is expencted to do everything and when failing I hear a lot of whining that they are overpriced), the latter are monstrously effective in melee but as with all specialist units they have their use, just like assault terminators you dont walk into every situation and expect them to win.

Now I know our troops are the best in the game 2nded imo by dark eldar warriors point for point. You mention Storm troopers as a comparison but I thnik that is a bad one. Yes they were 10 points a model and got hiked up to 16 but they also have an AP3 gun now instead of an ap5 they were also elites not a basic troop. Also note another reason they got bumped to 16 points is there is an unnofical GW rule that any model that has an AP 3 or less weapon has to cost at least 15 points

True. The point still stands though, the SoB is an extremely effective troop unit for the ridiculously low point cost.
Not even melee is always a weakness not AP3 weapons due to faith abilities.
Faith imo is to powerful but also to fickle, it would fit better on orks as it is now.

Tell me this since 5th ed came out has any single BASIC in the game gotten more expensive? Lets take a look
Codex Marines, tac squads on the whole are now cheaper don't remember scouts.
Codex Imperial Guard platoons got cheaper as did vets
Codex Space wolves Grey hunters and blood claws are both cheaper
Codex Tyranids termingaunts and hormaguants are both cheaper as are genestealers

SM cost 16p, before they cost 15p so thats an increase.
See to the rest of the army as a whole as no single unit can be taken out of its inter-balanced and themed context.
SW troops got cheaper yeah but their melee troops (elites) cost tons to compensate.
Look at DA, unless you build the army exactly like GW tells you to you will end up with an overpriced piece of crap.

You can build a very cheap mass troop SW army but it comes with weaknesses, if you include balance it will all of a sudden end up costing reasonable points.
The same can be said about SoB, you can build a horde army only using troops and cheap bolter minis but if you start to include balance the cost increases and SoBs you still can abuse to kingdom come since they pay so damn little for a 3+ save and a basic bolter and had abilities that make the opponent throw out all planning against them, he can never ever rely on sacrificing things to get that melee squad in combat since who knows, maybe the SoBs get 2+S or inv saves and there went that plan.

So the trend is lowering basic point cost for troops I think we can agree on that.

One thing I find hard to agree to is that a Ld8(9) model with a bolter and 3+save, access to heavy flamers, good transport, meltas and magic powers that make them superhuman will NEVER ever cost 10p or less a piece.

As for the Penitent engine I said the FNP is unlikely but its an idea thats all. And the 10 point reduction does make sense right now it barely costs more than a warwalker with weapons and is open topped. heavy bolter fire kills it before it can get into CC which is its only use and so thee is zero reason to take this unit

Oh but there is. Try and take more of them and see for yourself.
By the same logic I can claim an ork player should never take a killcan since they are twice as crappy as the penitents and I´m also right, ork players dont take one...they often take 8 of them as screen lines and then it excels.

Ever got frightened by one ork deff dread, I sure as hell havent. But when I see 5 of them running towards my lines (penitent benefits from run too) I think twice, "strange" since one is so crappy.
Heck if I ever heard an ork player complain about wanting to lower the cost of a killcan or deff dread (or an SM player with a dreadnought) by 10p he´d be laughed of the stage and told to use more then one of them.
The penitent has the advantage to be 0-9. Use that instead of trying to get one penitent to be price worthy because then you´ll be the cause of all SoB armies fielding 9 of them and being super cheesy.
So lower the point cost if you want but also make them 0-3 or learn how to use more penitents, if ork players can do then so can SoB players.

Heavy bolters from an attack bikesquard shred that unit in 1 maybe 2 turns, hell a lucky round of rapid firing bolters lays waste to the squad no they are clearly over priced for what you get.

Unit counter unit arguments are moot as we can sit here till the end of the world and give each others counter arguments about what to do "if" unit A does this or that.
If you have a problem with HB attackbikes then counter them, dont cry out for a super unit that doesnt need protection and that can do everything since if you do nobody will take you seriously.
Hell, my assault terminators cant do jack beyond melee range and will also be shredded by AP2 falcons, oh noes what should I do...I need to make them cheaper, come with jumppacks and tote lascannons on their heads.
Or I can learn to use them in tandem with the rest of my army.

What do you think I should choose?

I never suggested they get a 4+ cover save they have a 4+ normal save now. the invul was an idea to allow them to surive in CC to attack or to allow them to survive to get into CC. As for the role repentia fill in an ideal world you are correct but in anything more than a fluffy game against fluffy armies, they are 100% worthless and are up there for the worst unit in the game award with the tau space pope. They don't counter threats like nidzilla is what you fail to see. It seems you are thinking about them ideally and in a vacum, not within the context of an actual game.

You talk to me about vacuum?
Funny, a minute ago I replied to your "help, attackbikes are shredding my overpriced penitents and I cant do anything about it" claim

I agree that the repentia should get a 5+ inv save but that is all, tehy are a role specific unit, not a can do it all alone squad.

And again, please stop with the unit examples, sure they will be swamped by cheap gaunts but so will a SM dread or hammer terminators.
If you want an army with every unit being able to take care of themselves with no weaknesses or no help from the rest of the army then you are in the wrong hobby!

You want penitents that are cheap and balanced one on one, you complain that they dont do anything beyond 12, that they go down easily etc etc and want to beef them up while cheapen them but fail to explain how up to 9 of them would not be overpowering then.
You want repentia that has shooting staying power, that has melee staying power, that can take care of nidzilla and that dont get swamped by wheenies, that get better saves and that on top of it all, cost less.
Is there anything you dont want?
To me it sounds like you want a special SoB rule that says roll a dice after deployment, on a 2+ the SoB army automatically wins.

As for the change from arcoflaggents from D6 attacks to 4 I use the scatter laser change from eldar 3rd ed to 4th as my basis. Originally scatter lasers had D6 shots and that got changed to 4 shots. So I'm just doing the same thing here. Hell even 3 attacks would be fine. GW has a trend of getting rid of random tables and I'm just falling that

All good and logical but what about increasing the point cost to correspond to the on average more attacks (0.5 more attacks per model)?
There are other things in the eldar army that has gotten worse you know, the starcannon shoots less shots now then before but you seem to pick only the "good" and beneficial examples to include in the Sob army.
These are the little things that makes me wonder if you are trying to achieve real balance or just want to make your SoB army into an unbeatable cheese feast.

I said Sarissa options of course there is a point cost included I didn't say they should get them all for free. I think part of the disucssion we are having is you are taking me a little to literally. When I say options I mean options not automatic equipment. I've just read a bunch of the books when they mention sisters they talk about them using sarissas in CC and think its flavorful.

Ok, you might be right, I took you to literately. when I hear "I want sarissas all over the place" (an exaggeration on my part of course) I simply assumed you wanted all sob models to get free sarissas. Sorry about that.

So what about sarissas?
How many points per model for a sarissa 2p, 3p? They arent worth 5p a piece, thats to much.
And what squads should get them? I think not troops but melee dedicated and maybe elites like celestians. All else would be out of theme and to a degree, fluff.

As to the flamer and heavy flamer right now our flamers are 1 point overcosted and the heavy flamer is 3 points undercosted those will be fixed in the next ed. We also need to close range to use any of those.

closing range is NOT a point and shopuld not be used to sneak in a point change.
I know not one SM player who wouldnt gladly exchange their tac MM for a tac heavy flamer and never even mention range.
The Sob flamer ought to come free IF the SoB models cost more points a piece.
The HF ought to cost 10p.
Melta should cost 10p,
Multimelta free.
There should be future acces to second meltagun only in elite squads like celestians etc, not troops, they get twin flamers on steroids as a specialty.
That is if combibolters are allowed for squad superiors, if not then a second meltagun ought to be available to the sob troop squad for 15p.

What do you think about these suggestions?

Also from the way you are talking about acts of faith leads me to believe you aren't quite sure how they work.
+2 strenth power requires me to roll equal to or under the number of models un my unit on 2D6 easy enough with a 10 strong squad but very hard with 5. Oh yeah did I mention it makes your I value drop to 1. so your unit dies to whatever you fight.

Trust me I´we met and used SoB armies so many times that I know perfectly well how murderous faith can be and that its power also comes from never letting the opponent plan and rely on said plans.
The minus I is of no consern vs MEQ sice sisters strike last anyway so tehre is only a bonus with the +2S.
The inv save is ridiculously overpowered and abused so much its not even funny.

The rending shooty faith power is meh, to weak to do any differance.

The whole faith system should be kicked out the window and it will I bet. Parts are to OP, parts are to useless and its prone to regular abuse.
The powers ahould be less fickle, a simple LD check to work is enough but also less OP.
Suggestions are.
Reroll missed attacks in player turn.
Rending for player turn.
Fearless for player turn.
+1S +1I for player turn.
One better armour save (to 2+) while -1A for player turn.

All infantry units come with one faith point each with one additional being buyable for a point cost and only that unit may use its own powers, no power pool any more will do wonders in stopping the abuse.
I fail to see just one model out of the whole army being granted miracle after miracle, that is not in the spirit of the game nor was it in the designers intention.

As for spirit of the martyr its not quite as good as everyone makes it out to be cause they are using it wrong. First of all you need to roll equal to or over the number of models in the sqaud to use it so a squad of 10 is probably not going ot get it off where as a squad of 5 might. And unlike every other act of faith you can only invoke it at the start of combat not once wounds are rolled so you may use it and have it wasted because your enemy only inflicted 1 wound.

Except one model units lol
As said, to much abuse.

also we aren't an =I= army as much as a sisters of battle army. Sisters of battle were around way before the =I= got codex rules. We aren't horde like IG but we aren't quite as few as space marines. There are lots of SoBs in the imperium plenty more than than then inquisitors its a different branch in the hierarchy.

As with the GKs, tehy can have inquisitors attached to them but how often do GK kill teams travel around with inquisitors?
Sure there are more sisters then marines but far less then IG so I see this army as a half-elite one, more numerous then the typical SM army but far from a horde like IG.

Sob need to get up close to do some damage. Their good at 11 points. They die pretty easily and if they were their points were increase they would be far to expensive. A t3 model with a 3+ armour save isn't that great even if it is invu. Cause your just going to have to make lots of save. Sure sisters are great agaisn't those deadly attacks that kill everything but you shot them with a bunch of bolters and they do go down far easier then a marine. Storm troopers and fire warriors are different. Storm troopers can deepstrike and reroll their scatter. Which means they can take out that enemy unit holding the objective and then move behind enemy lines doing some damage. Which means the enemy now has to change his plan. Firewarriors can simply sit back and just shot at their oppenents whilte not worrying about being assaulted or shot back. Sister of battle on the other hand cannot do either or these. They have to get within rapid fire range to be effective. Which means if they don't kill the enemy squad, their probably going to get assaulted and sisters are terrible in close combat even with acts of faith. I can't even remeber the last time they won a tournament or even came in the top 10. Yet you want to see their points increased? It's not going to happen. Also you have a limited amount of faith and pulling of faith also depends on your squad size. The army is already underpowered and yet you want to make them even more underpowered?

First I'll conceed that using unit by unit comparisions aren't the best idea. I think I only made one in this opst but it was a comment on yours. I'll try to explain myself better as sometimes I just assume you nkow what I'm talking about thats ADD for you. also Sorry if I'm taking your points out of order. And I will try to convince you of my points

SoBs were (are) absolutely dirt cheap for what they do. All points towards them being made more expensive and stuck with wargear addons included in the price.

Yes they are inexpensive this is true but you are are arbitrarily saying that all indications are that they will get a point increase because they are good. You also haven't shown me any example of this. As for myself I've shown the precedent of overall reduction in troop costs all 5th ed codexs have. Also your argument about space marines I think is inaccurate because now you get a free vet sarge and free special weapons so the overall cost of the squad is reduced from what it was in 4th ed. If something similar happened to sisters, it would be fine with me because i'd get an overall point reduction.

So what about sarissas?
How many points per model for a sarissa 2p, 3p? They arent worth 5p a piece, thats to much.
And what squads should get them? I think not troops but melee dedicated and maybe elites like celestians. All else would be out of theme and to a degree, fluff.

Yeah celesetians should get them thats fine probably and 2 or 3 points a model seems right to me as well. In agreement here.

Trust me I´we met and used SoB armies so many times that I know perfectly well how murderous faith can be and that its power also comes from never letting the opponent plan and rely on said plans.
The minus I is of no consern vs MEQ sice sisters strike last anyway so tehre is only a bonus with the +2S.
The inv save is ridiculously overpowered and abused so much its not even funny.

The rending shooty faith power is meh, to weak to do any differance.

The whole faith system should be kicked out the window and it will I bet. Parts are to OP, parts are to useless and its prone to regular abuse.
The powers ahould be less fickle, a simple LD check to work is enough but also less OP.
Suggestions are.
Reroll missed attacks in player turn.
Rending for player turn.
Fearless for player turn.
+1S +1I for player turn.
One better armour save (to 2+) while -1A for player turn.

All infantry units come with one faith point each with one additional being buyable for a point cost and only that unit may use its own powers, no power pool any more will do wonders in stopping the abuse.
I fail to see just one model out of the whole army being granted miracle after miracle, that is not in the spirit of the game nor was it in the designers intention.

Yeah I think everyone agrees even those of us who use it that faith is just a powerful yet incredibly annoying came mechanic. I agree that a ld test for the the unit is probably the best way to handle it instead of the rolling system now and seems a likely compromise. That being said, I just don't know how it should be implemented. The pooling of should be out makes sense. But I'm not sure about your way of limiting the amount to be used. 1 or 2 uses per game per unit I'm not sold on it but here me out. Howabout something like this:

Faithful special rule allows you to perform acts of faith.
Certain units I.E. warshrines, canoness, preachers whatever can inspire units to preform an act of faith. Any units within a certain range or in the case of characters in the unit they are attached may attempt an act of faith. Roll an LD test if succesful you can invoke power x. Or if that is to powerful make it an LD test on 3D6 taking the two highest. This allows a unit to use mutiple acts of faith per game but makes it contigent on a harder ld test and another unit that can be removed. I don't know if this is balanced or not but seems like another interesting idea for faith.

I also find it funny how we differ on the strengths of powers, personally i find divine guidence the most overpowered act of faith when combined with flamers. Where as you think its spirit of the marytr. Mind you aside from 25 point items spirit of the martyr is the only access to an invul save in the entire army.

But overall yeah the powers are abused allot because the people use them don't really explain it to their opponents which dickish.

closing range is NOT a point and shopuld not be used to sneak in a point change.
I know not one SM player who wouldnt gladly exchange their tac MM for a tac heavy flamer and never even mention range.
The Sob flamer ought to come free IF the SoB models cost more points a piece.
The HF ought to cost 10p.
Melta should cost 10p,
Multimelta free.
There should be future acces to second meltagun only in elite squads like celestians etc, not troops, they get twin flamers on steroids as a specialty.
That is if combibolters are allowed for squad superiors, if not then a second meltagun ought to be available to the sob troop squad for 15p.

What do you think about these suggestions?

From this statement it seems like we may have more in common about respective points then I thought. You think sister's are undercosted but I think the trend is to make troop units on the whole cheaper. Some of what you are saying despite a point increase makes a unit of sisters overall cheaper. If indivdually they are increased by 1 point per model but get a free special weapon and a free vet they are still are a cheaper unit over all. Which I'm fine with. However, a full 20 sister squad would be more expensive which is also fine.

That being said, I don't think sisters will get a free special weapon like marines do that is one of the advantages for being a marine. as for your selection of weapons, I also dont think sisters will get access to multimeltas in their normal squads or lose access to to the 2nd special or heavy flamers because that is one of the defining things about the army how the squads have functioned since they first came out. I have nothing to back this up aside from a feeling that GWwon't change the basic composition of the army so drastically. Having a imperial based unit with access to only 1 special doesnt seem likely. As for combi bolters they have access to them now and will probably have access to them in the net edition as well at 5th ed costs. (combi flamers are 10 points for SOB now instead of the 5th ed 5 points)

All good and logical but what about increasing the point cost to correspond to the on average more attacks (0.5 more attacks per model)?
There are other things in the eldar army that has gotten worse you know, the starcannon shoots less shots now then before but you seem to pick only the "good" and beneficial examples to include in the Sob army.
These are the little things that makes me wonder if you are trying to achieve real balance or just want to make your SoB army into an unbeatable cheese feast.

As I've said I'm not expecting everything in the army to be fixed, but I would like more viable options for our FOC, right now there are clear choices in every slot. If they only fix repentia or arcoflag then yes I'll deal they dont' need to fix both but it woudl be nice. There is no variety in our book that is one of my greatest concerns. And I completely forgot about the star cannon change, but then again dont' like me get started on my why vypers should be changed rant either!

I'm not going to quote the long text of the penitent engines, sisters repentia and acro flaggelent cause it will be to large but I will address your points now.

First to the sisters repentia and arcos: I just have a hard time hearing anyone justify that repentia and arcos are useful at all. You and I can both cite specific instances when they shine but in 19 out of 20 games they are utterly worthless. Its nearly impossible for them to surive to get into combat their only roll. The thing that really sticks out for me to justify a point reduction or upgrade to this two stems from the fact they have no delivery system aside from running. I believe every single other assault troop (I could be wrong please correct if I am) in the game has a potential delivery system to help them reach close combat. Be it infiltrate, outflank a ground based transport deep strike via jump pack or pod, jump pack/beast/cavalry movement or some random magic thing that projects them from long range fire. Sisters repentia and arcoflaggelents on the other hand do not have anything. If you could mount arcoflaggents in a transport (of couse paying for it) and standardize their attacks they'd be worth it. Although I still think a max squad of 6 or 7 is to few but I'll take what I can get. Also do you agree that a priest shouldn't be requierd to field them? That would also reduce the point cost especially sicne 5th ed priests are signifcantly worse than 4th ed ones.

Now to your statement that I want an unbeatable army that isnt' true at all. Am I asking for unbelieveable powerful new units no. A reduction in the absurd cost of dominion squad special weapons no because a squad with 4 special weapons should be that expensive, that exocercists should stay the same cost no. (Excercists should be 150 IMO) As for balance, I'm only seeking to balance an updated sisters vs. other 5th ed codexs. I'm not looking at anything 4th edition because 5th edition changed the game so much. The only reason sisters are competitive army now is because of the new template rules and AP1 krak missiles. Even the Ork codex wasn't really suited for how 5th has turned out. Thats why i'm only looking at marines, IG, SW, NIDs and soon to be BA. That is where I'm basing all my knowledge from. The trend those books started. Why would I bother making suggestions about a balanced sister list vs codexes like necrons and Dark eldar? It makes no sense you balance vs the trend and current edition not versus something old an outdated.

Finally penitent engines you say fielding 9 of them is scary I laugh. The reason 9 killa kans are scary is cause that big mek gives them all a 5+ save. Also unlike the Kans penitent engines are open topped. Penitent engines have no such 5++. If fielded 9 of them in a 1500 point army I think I could only use them and 2 or 3 sister squads and an hq. I'd be tabled in 3 turns easy. only luck could save you from that. In an apoc game well I can't comment since I have never treid them in one, but I suspect they perform much better there where they don't compete for FOC slots and where strategems can make them better.


As for army variety I expect allies to be gone from the new books so I'm not even including them in my updates.

I look forward to your responses, its nice ot have a healthy debated without whining on either side.

*edit*
If you say that sisters are half between marines and gaurd do the math. Guard are 5 points a model and marinse are 16 so the mid point is 10.5 - 11 Just food for thought.

I think if Storm Troopers are kept in the codex, as a troop choice I think they will likely lose their special missions and have it replaced with some sort of "Inquisitorial escort" mission, that gives them a different special rule and no flexibility to choose. I think as a Troop choice they could lose a few rules to be brought down in price a bit. I think it is hard to justify their presence as a troop if they out cost the more elite chamber militant.

that is a very good point and hadn't thought of it.

I could see them easily getting Stubborn as a result of their "Inquistorial Escort" mission. It represents very well both the mentality of the sort of men and inquisitor would want with him as well as the idea that they'd fight to the last, rather than let some one as important as an Inquisitor get killed.

Pyriel do you think the present codex is perfect? Do you think that it is the most powerful in the game? Do you think they win every tournament hands down? And do you think that every unit in it is equally good and no matter what you take?

If not then surely you concede that some units aren't very good in the context of the codex and need to be made better before people will field them? Well that is what we're discussing here. Mostly people would like a reason to use dominions, archo-flags, repentia, penitents, death cult assassins and priests and we're tossing around how we would change these units so that they would see play.

You seem to have a particular problem with repentia being improved. Face facts pyriel they suck. You compared them to Assault terminators which is one of the most laughable comparison I have heard on this board. Assault terminators are grossly undercosted and abusively powerful, repentia are one of the most loathed units in the game, easily the worst in the sisters dex and a routine nomination for worst unit in 40K.

What seperates them. Well lots of things including 2pts of extra strength, deep strike and land raiders as a delivery mechanism (whereas repentia have none) and atsknf. but prinicpally it is that assault terminators are t4 get a 2+ armour save and a 3+ invulnerable save making them amongst the toughest units in the entire game. In contrast repentia have a 4+ armour save and are t3.

Assault terminators can wade into combat against the biggest and baddest assault threats there are, bloodcrushers, nobz, grey knight termies, incubi and still be standing at the end of it with very few men lost. Then they swing their massive hammers and said expensive assault unit dies. In contrast repentia will just be killed before they can swing by any half decent assalt unit. Far from being useful against similar targets repentia won't just lose to big threats like hive tyrants, bloodcrushers, et al they'll also get torn a new one by any middling assault unit like a Grey Hunter pack, an average ork mob anything that chaos have.

They might win combat against things which are crap in cc (but then, so will basic sisters with the application of faith) and tough units with low amounts of attacks (so wraithlords, tyrannofex) but otherwise they'll generally lose cc.

So a cc unit with no delivery vector, that dies to heavy bolter fire and loses in cc when it gets there. Which you compared to one of the all time best units in the game.

I notice that you have insinuated that "used correctly" they can be good. Pray tell what is this magical secret that the vast majority of sisters players are missing regarding repentia. Don't horde such information but nstead enlighten us as to their hidden charms.

Regarding penitent engines I agree with you that 9 of them is pretty damn devastating, I've been on the receiving end of that with my wolves and it hurt like hell. But whilst the engines are devastating they cost so much that they suck up points you need elsewhere to actually win the game. a 1500pts list with 9 engines can barely afford 2-3 basic troop choices and a decent HQ let alone support elements. And they're nigh on uncontrollable. And they only work against assault armies, against any decent shooty army they just die before they can do any damage and that's the majority of your offensive power gone. Plus they use a slot that contains exorcists and most sisters players feel they need at least 1 or 2 exorcists to have any way of stopping enemy transports.

In contrast lets look at kanz as everyone compares them.

First kanz are tougher, they aren't open-topped and they will almost always have a KFF behind them granting a 4+ cover save.
Second kanz can be used tactically. Rather than running forward mindlessly kanz can be used to screen the boyz from shooting and as an assault screen. Penitents are basically uncontrollable.
Third kanz add something to the ork army they can't get in most other places, accurate powerful ranged wepaonry. Ork shooting is good but is largely composed of lots of anit-infantry shots. Kanz can add a few rokkits to help deal with armour or use grotzookas to deal with MEQ. In contrast penitents add cc power that can be got elsewhere (basic sisters, seraphim) but use up slots needed for exorcists.

I like repentia getting FnP. It's a nice save that's easily bypassed [Multilasers and the like], but gives survivability in lots of situations.

I think they should have a 12" charge range, though. Make them like their DoW counterparts. I liked the imagery of them speeding up for a charge into cc.

Priests should be an upgrade to sisters units and grant access to additional acts of faith that they normally couldn't have - above and beyond normal holiness!

Penitent Engines need to be drastically reduced. Compare them to Killakanz!

Sisters should stay 11 points, but come with frag grenades. ALTHOUGH, I'm kind of at a love/hate relationship with all these models getting grenades. Makes rules for cover kind of pointless, affecting only monstrous creatures, terminators, and walkers.

Retributors should absolutely be able to take heavy flamers.

Reduce points of rhinos and immolators.

Allow the exorcist to fire a weaker, multiple barrage blast version of its missles. S5 or 6 AP4 or something.

Give heroines and celestians preferred enemy.

Celestians in DoW are "heavy infantry". Having a retinue option with 2+ saves would be neat.

Penitent engines are effectively Ordo-hereticus sentinels with extras. 35-50pts before any special rules. I say you make them cheaper and just allow them to be taken in squadrons larger than 3. Just imagine taking 15.

Heroines and Celestians would get "Preferred Enemy" for what enemy?

I don't think Celestians should get 2+ armor save, it just doesn't fit. I think something like a standard 3+/4+ Inv save would be appropriate.


Also, why are so many people opposed to dropping the 0-1 option from assassins, by today's standards they are good, not great. I think in a reworked codex they should leave them as is, dropping the 0-1 or re-write them as special characters with modified rules. Looking at the tyranid codex, there are units that do far more than an assassin could for fewer points.

personally I'm not touching the assassin debate cause its a tough one. and I just don't know what would really be fair or not. Every suggestion I've seen is either incredibly overpowered or severly underpowered. that being said I think the inquisitor requirement should be removed. Also I think assassins will still be available to be taken as allies even though all other allies will be lost in the new book (I.E. no inquis + mystics), simple because assassin have since 2nd edition been a choice for all mperial armies. So I don't see IG or SM losing access to then.

I think all the cross referential requirements should be dropped, no more requirements for Priests or Inquisitors. Open up the list and drop this mechanic that forces you to take extra units you don't want.

This sort of rule construction is poor. If the Inquisitor or priest are worth taking than its a moot requirement since you're likely to take it anyways. If the units are not worth taking than they are a premium on the price of the unit you do want; its like a 40pt tax just to take penitent engines.

In 100% agreement with you buddy, especially since priests are going ot be worse than before if the IG book is any indication.

Sob need to get up close to do some damage. Their good at 11 points. They die pretty easily and if they were their points were increase they would be far to expensive.

At 11p they are not "good" they are underpriced.
The die to easy is also a moot point since it is countered by numbers, they die easier then marines but tehy are also more of them.
Taking your logics I can say guardsmen should cost 3p a piece since they "die to easy" but again, as you are aware tehy also come in bigger numbers to compensate this.

And sisters needing to get in range to do damage, it is called "army theme", live with it.
Grey knights cant kill tanks at range and even up close they dont do a good job at it so what?
Its their army theme so stop whining and adapt to it! You cant have a SoB army with no weaknesses for crying out loud.

I can't even remeber the last time they won a tournament or even came in the top 10. Yet you want to see their points increased?

They won a 100+ army tournament here some year ago.
And yes I want their points increased, for basic models at least since I, contrary to you, want balance and not an army with no weakness, no negative themed aspect and no need for units to support one another in order to win the game.

Take a guardsman, strap a boltgun to him, up his Ld, up his BS, give him 3+ save, give him powers that negate AP3 weapons, that give him S5 etc and try to sell that idea for "just" +4p a model.
Last time I checked ork troops pay good points for even a 4+ armour save.

First I'll conceed that using unit by unit comparisions aren't the best idea. I think I only made one in this opst but it was a comment on yours. I'll try to explain myself better as sometimes I just assume you nkow what I'm talking about thats ADD for you. also Sorry if I'm taking your points out of order. And I will try to convince you of my points

Ok, fair enough...shoot!

Yes they are inexpensive this is true but you are are arbitrarily saying that all indications are that they will get a point increase because they are good. You also haven't shown me any example of this. As for myself I've shown the precedent of overall reduction in troop costs all 5th ed codexs have. Also your argument about space marines I think is inaccurate because now you get a free vet sarge and free special weapons so the overall cost of the squad is reduced from what it was in 4th ed. If something similar happened to sisters, it would be fine with me because i'd get an overall point reduction.

Ok let me rephrase myself then, I say they ought to cost more then!
11p for THAT effective package tied in one troop model IS far to cheap for what it can do.
And yes, the closest and best comparisons would be to space marines since they have roughly the same wargear and also share the same armour save.

However, the whole argument is really null and void since we dont know how the future faith system will work, even if we spend a hundred manhours in here to give sisters serious balance changes it is all for nought since those will be based on the faith bonuses. we simply dont know.

But I would say if ditching faith then a point balance is fairly easy to calculate using a tac vs a sob squad in different scenarios and while leaving the sob point cost, toying with their squad numbers to get an even point to point match. Throwing in faith sucess statistics into the brew will also add to the nightmare.
I have spent around 12 hours doing this for grey knights comparing them to all other troop choices in the game and with different wargear loadouts it is VERY time consuming but gives good results too.
Based on the feel I got from this I take a calculated guess and say outright that the sob is to cheap. I could do such a calculation the next time I get a clear 12 hour work shift with nothing else to do but I also fear this will be pointless since some people will never listen to reason and logics even is god himself steps down and shovels it in their faces.


So for further debates I suggest we first come up with a decent faith system or else nothing we say can be anchored in substance.

Yeah celesetians should get them thats fine probably and 2 or 3 points a model seems right to me as well. In agreement here.

I actually did some math on that ages ago and if I remember correct 2p per model was a balanced outcome.

Yeah I think everyone agrees even those of us who use it that faith is just a powerful yet incredibly annoying came mechanic. I agree that a ld test for the the unit is probably the best way to handle it instead of the rolling system now and seems a likely compromise. That being said, I just don't know how it should be implemented. The pooling of should be out makes sense. But I'm not sure about your way of limiting the amount to be used. 1 or 2 uses per game per unit I'm not sold on it but here me out. Howabout something like this:

Well I see faith as a cool fluffy addition to the battle, it is supposed to represent a RARE holy miracle and not something the whole army is supposed to wade through like its bought on kmart.

All I´m saying is:
easy, less fickle. Eitehr basic Ld test or a -3Ld test with a +1 counter adde for every turn the game has passed kinda like the Njal psychic power, its harder in the beguinning but at the ending of the battle where desperation shines through faith miracles should be more frequent.

My suggestion is thus an unmodified (that cannot be modified by things like cullexus, etc) Ld test with a -3 to it so a unit with Ld 9 must roll 6 or lower for the faith to suceed.
For every turn add a +1 to the faith test so by turn 3 its just an unmodified Ld test and turn 5 you have +2 to roll the test at.
Its simple and follows GWs preceedence with Nials powers and other turn counters.

Secondly I suggest having squad faith points ratehr then a pool that will as always be abused. Just the beefiest unit using all the faith turn after turn is what people hate about sister armies anyway.
Only certain units will come with faith points, the "holier" the unit is the more faith so a troop could get 1 point whereas jumppack sisters could get 2p and celestials even 3p with troops being able to buy a wargear (that squad leader icon for example) that grants them another point.
As I said, I dont see the emperor pouring faith over each and every unit making them freaking super monsters for 6 turns out of 6. Miracles are rare.

Faithful special rule allows you to perform acts of faith.
Certain units I.E. warshrines, canoness, preachers whatever can inspire units to preform an act of faith. Any units within a certain range or in the case of characters in the unit they are attached may attempt an act of faith. Roll an LD test if succesful you can invoke power x. Or if that is to powerful make it an LD test on 3D6 taking the two highest. This allows a unit to use mutiple acts of faith per game but makes it contigent on a harder ld test and another unit that can be removed. I don't know if this is balanced or not but seems like another interesting idea for faith.

The innate danger of this approach is the DA syndrome. By telling the player that he MUST use this or that unit or else no faith is like GW did with the poor dark angel codex, telling players that tehy must take this and that unit, then there will be a point effective army or else if you want to go you own way you are playing an uneffective piece of crap.

Imo players should be encouraged to build whatevr armies they like, not to be forced to take certain things or else the army becomes ineffective.
Imagine if you as a SM player only got ATSKNF IF you took a crappy chapter master?

On the other hand this can be circumvented by allowing the faithful to be centered only around the few units that every player must take, HQs and troop squads. you cant bypass those no matter what army build you are using so there will be no forcing the player into certain builds.

I also find it funny how we differ on the strengths of powers, personally i find divine guidence the most overpowered act of faith when combined with flamers. Where as you think its spirit of the marytr. Mind you aside from 25 point items spirit of the martyr is the only access to an invul save in the entire army.

The power of it comes from completely negating the enemies advantages he often pays for dearly when facing sisters. It costs to get to melee through all the sister bolters and flamers and when you finally reach their lines with your remains you cant do jack since everyone gets stormshield inv saves.
It also leaves things open for abuse, the grand tourney player here used the FNoD (flying nun of doom) on a constant basis, its out of game character, non fluffy and cheezy.
Nobody likes a melee HQ with jumppack and a 2+ inv save trashing around using up all the faith pool.

Whereas things like "rending" shooting is to weak even for retributors to use.

That being said, I don't think sisters will get a free special weapon like marines do that is one of the advantages for being a marine. as for your selection of weapons, I also dont think sisters will get access to multimeltas in their normal squads or lose access to to the 2nd special or heavy flamers because that is one of the defining things about the army how the squads have functioned since they first came out. I have nothing to back this up aside from a feeling that GWwon't change the basic composition of the army so drastically. Having a imperial based unit with access to only 1 special doesnt seem likely. As for combi bolters they have access to them now and will probably have access to them in the net edition as well at 5th ed costs. (combi flamers are 10 points for SOB now instead of the 5th ed 5 points)

Yeah overall full squads might be cheaper, the drawback is you loose out on customization (like with marines).
Now you can toy around minmaxing sister squads and while they are dirt cheap this leads to cheese.

As I've said I'm not expecting everything in the army to be fixed, but I would like more viable options for our FOC, right now there are clear choices in every slot. If they only fix repentia or arcoflag then yes I'll deal they dont' need to fix both but it woudl be nice. There is no variety in our book that is one of my greatest concerns. And I completely forgot about the star cannon change, but then again dont' like me get started on my why vypers should be changed rant either!

I think they will get fixed, a good indicator would be if the new necrons get more options or not. Hell if any army needs more options its necrons and pure GK.

The thing that really sticks out for me to justify a point reduction or upgrade to this two stems from the fact they have no delivery system aside from running. I believe every single other assault troop (I could be wrong please correct if I am) in the game has a potential delivery system to help them reach close combat.

I think they are doing fine. Partially the time they are in the open is offset by faster into-melee-movement.
Like with assault squads you need to screen them with rhinos.
Stormboys need a screen also and they get shot down very easy too.
Termies have transports yes but those cost a minimum of 250p, not very effective I would say and if you dont take it tehy need to foot slog.

Space pups have also a fun option, either take infantry and footslog it (repentia) or reduce the power of said infantry (less shooting) and take a transport for a point cost.
I agree they need an inv save but a 5+ is adequate, maybe a FnP also but then we are talking a point increase to 22.ish points.
They are a unique unit with a role specific usage.

Flagellants need to be less fickle yes, a set attack profile of A4 would be ok for a slight point increase.

both repentia and flagellants are murderous in melee, the trick is as you say to get them there and with cheaper troops you end up with more transports that can screen them. They would never do well in SM armies due to less troops meaning less screen for them.
You cant take those units in any sister build and that is ok, you want a melee sister army you need to build the rest accordingly just like every other army there is, you want a pod heavy force then build the army accordingly around the pods.

Priests:
I dont know, they make squads fearless and I have seen them attached to dirt cheap mass units that simply tie up stuff and never flee. This tactic is quite effective and priests as as far as I remember used this way to good effect. But I confess to never have used priests myself, just faced them.

A reduction in the absurd cost of dominion squad special weapons no because a squad with 4 special weapons should be that expensive, that exocercists should stay the same cost no. (Excercists should be 150 IMO

Agree!

Why would I bother making suggestions about a balanced sister list vs codexes like necrons and Dark eldar?

You tell me, you based some of your profile suggestions on eldar weapons.

Finally penitent engines you say fielding 9 of them is scary I laugh. The reason 9 killa kans are scary is cause that big mek gives them all a 5+ save. Also unlike the Kans penitent engines are open topped. Penitent engines have no such 5++. If fielded 9 of them in a 1500 point army I think I could only use them and 2 or 3 sister squads and an hq. I'd be tabled in 3 turns easy. only luck could save you from that. In an apoc game well I can't comment since I have never treid them in one, but I suspect they perform much better there where they don't compete for FOC slots and where strategems can make them better.

Then make them balanced IF many are taken.
You simply cant take ONE 1-9 model and make it balanced if used alone, thats basic logics.
If that is not possible then make them like dreadnoughts 0-1 taking up one slot each, then and only then can we toy around with a standalone balanced walker.

Open topped is easily circumvented by giving them hard top upgrades etc.

As for army variety I expect allies to be gone from the new books so I'm not even including them in my updates.

Sadly I expect allies to be included, all the induced crap only waters down the army imo.

If you say that sisters are half between marines and gaurd do the math. Guard are 5 points a model and marinse are 16 so the mid point is 10.5 - 11 Just food for thought.

That was a fluff reflection on my part. Sorry to have been to vague.

I think if Storm Troopers are kept in the codex, as a troop choice I think they will likely lose their special missions and have it replaced with some sort of "Inquisitorial escort" mission, that gives them a different special rule and no flexibility to choose. I think as a Troop choice they could lose a few rules to be brought down in price a bit. I think it is hard to justify their presence as a troop if they out cost the more elite chamber militant.

The mistake with stormtroopers in SoB armies is that they have always been treated as cannonfodder choices.
STs in the new IG codex have gotten their elite status back and that was not to early.

Remember, storm troopers are just as elite as sisters, they come fron the same basic schoola progenium and with the same screenings and training etc.
They like sisters, train their asses of on a daily bases but both groups have far different mission profiles.
Thats what should be changed in the future codex. Ssiters are heavy shock troops while stormtroopers are surgical light infantry both just as "elite" and neither should come with the cannonfodder feeling.

Pyriel do you think the present codex is perfect? Do you think that it is the most powerful in the game? Do you think they win every tournament hands down? And do you think that every unit in it is equally good and no matter what you take?

Reread the last posts by me and you´ll get a deeper understandign of where I´m coming from.

I don't think Celestians should get 2+ armor save, it just doesn't fit. I think something like a standard 3+/4+ Inv save would be appropriate.

No sister model should get a 2+ save save for the occasional HQ wargear.
Its just not sister fluff.
They are cheaper and counter "only" having 3+ saves with greater numbers.

Also, why are so many people opposed to dropping the 0-1 option from assassins, by today's standards they are good, not great. I think in a reworked codex they should leave them as is, dropping the 0-1 or re-write them as special characters with modified rules. Looking at the tyranid codex, there are units that do far more than an assassin could for fewer points.

Assassins today are utter crap, they cost more and eat an additional slot due to the babysitting inquisitor.
If you ever take one (callidus can be effective) you need to build the rest of the army around them.

Pyriel- wrote:
At 11p they are not "good" they are underpriced.
The die to easy is also a moot point since it is countered by numbers, they die easier then marines but tehy are also more of them.
Taking your logics I can say guardsmen should cost 3p a piece since they "die to easy" but again, as you are aware tehy also come in bigger numbers to compensate this.

And sisters needing to get in range to do damage, it is called "army theme", live with it.
Grey knights cant kill tanks at range and even up close they dont do a good job at it so what?
Its their army theme so stop whining and adapt to it! You cant have a SoB army with no weaknesses for crying out loud.

They do have weakness. Yet you want to make them between 13 to 15 points? A space wolf marine and chaos marine is 15 points. They have bolt pistols and close combat weapon meaning when they charge they get 3 attacks at S4 and I4. While a sister would only get 2 attacks if she charged at S3, I3. While at shooting your T3 which means you go down easily. Yes sisters do have faith but space wolves have "they shall no know fear" and "counter attack" to make it up. So you have a guy who has a higher WS, S, I, T and more A for 2 or less points. Also Grey Knights are probably the weakest army out there not to mention their outdated making them a horrible example. Sisters have weakness and that's why their at 11 points. If they go up in points they better get something to make up for it, so tell me what would you give them to make up for their higher point cost?

They won a 100+ army tournament here some year ago.
And yes I want their points increased, for basic models at least since I, contrary to you, want balance and not an army with no weakness, no negative themed aspect and no need for units to support one another in order to win the game.

That is bs. I want some evidence. Usually it's chaos or eldar who win.

Take a guardsman, strap a boltgun to him, up his Ld, up his BS, give him 3+ save, give him powers that negate AP3 weapons, that give him S5 etc and try to sell that idea for "just" +4p a model.
Last time I checked ork troops pay good points for even a 4+ armour save.

Last I check an Ork had t4, furious charge and mob rule. First of all what you said up their is false cause a guardsmen does not cost 7 points, veterans cost 7 points who have the same BS as a standard sister of battle. Let's take a veteran, and give him the upgrade that gives him cameo clock which gives him a 3+ cover save and plus a few other things. Also when your S5, your also I1 which isn't that great. Also if I have a squad of 10 (Which is the minimum squad size), I'm not going to be able to negate AP3 or better weapons. Cause chances are I'm not going to be able to roll a 10 or higher with two dice. Let's not forget that vets can take more special weapons then sisters and have access to far more different weapons to. You may say that's the theme of the army but theme is also taken in account for point cost.

Let's compare SoB with Veteran Guardsmen, very similar stats except SoB have a 3+ save, an extra +1LD, and a bolter while veterans have a close combat weapon and frag and krak grenades. 10 SoB 110pts. 10 Vets 70pts, with their carapace 100.

I think in an abstract way the grenades and close combat weapon are about equal to the extra leadership and bolter. This abstraction in obvious favor to the SoB, but given whats probably an over cost for the Veterans carapace, its negligibly.

So you're looking at a 10pt difference to give SoB a 3+ sv. Going from 4+ to 3+, this is a 20% improvement to saves. Meaning a fifth as many SoB fewer would get killed relative to Veterans. Given that and the abstract all other things are equal, SoB are more appropriately 20% more than a Veteran with carapace or 12pts per SOB.

The only elbow room to justify a cost lower is to argue that the Veteran Guardsmen are extremely over costed for carapace armor 30pts, which by the same formulation as above, should only cost 14-15pts.

So comparing the hypothetical 95pt veteran squad we see SoB should be 115pts for a squad. GW likely rounded down the 0.5pts per SOB for simplification.

So here we have a spectrum, at their cheapest a SoB should be 11.5pts/model and 12pts at the most.

Just a quick note Aka. The Veteran are getting their Sergeant for free while the sisters have to pay an extra 14 points for theirs.

In fairness it doesn't make that much a difference. I'm comparing the basic model costs, on a unit level. The veteran sister superior is an option and not the basic unit. Since you insist upon it....

The veteran sister superior is 14pts the Veteran squad veteran sgt, is free. Each gain a +1A +1Ld over the standard infantry models stats. The vast majority of this point cost for the Veteran Sister is the point cost contribution to the faith points. With the faith point cost contribution taken into consideration, the point cost of the Sgt. models are roughly equal. The cost of the veteran sgt is absorbed while the cost of the Sister Superior is additive.

We will assume the faith point cost contribution to be equal to 50% of the Veteran sisters cost. 7pts.

Looking at the 100pts veteran squad, SoB should be 127pts or about 1.25pts/model over a veteran guardsmen.

Looking at the 95pts veteran squad, SoB should be 122pts or about 12.2pts/model over a veteran guardsmen,

Thus the window of point variation is narrowed. If a squad of SoB automatically include a the veteran Sister Superior the first 10 models should be roughly 12.2~12.25pts a piece.

They do have weakness. Yet you want to make them between 13 to 15 points?

12-13 more likely yes. Thats what sister models are worth.

If they go up in points they better get something to make up for it, so tell me what would you give them to make up for their higher point cost?

SoB models? Nothing!
They are underpriced now at 11p, upping them to 12-13 would not call for any additional benefits, that would just be balancing their point cost.

As for "better" things elsewhere in a SoB army I would like more viable choices in other slots such as working celestians, 5+ inv saves to repentia, less fickle faith powers, less powerful faith powers etc.

That is bs. I want some evidence. Usually it's chaos or eldar who win.

I dont care what you want.
http://www.gothcon.se/oldweb/thexxxiv/main/index.php
http://www.wizard-games.com/forum/index.php
http://bsk.sverok.net/SilverStripe/startsida
http://lincon.sverok.net/index.php?meny=meny&sida=01start

Hope you know Swedish, feel free to email and ask for several years worth of tournament results and see how well SoB armies do in big against all tournaments.
With your BS attitude I´m certainly not going to do the work for you.

Last I check an Ork had t4, furious charge and mob rule.

Check again then, they also have 6+ armour saves, no fancy flamers, no tank busting ability and a non existent leadership but I guess you, being the expert, already knew that. To bad you forget" things.

give him the upgrade that gives him cameo clock which gives him a 3+ cover save and plus a few other things.

Wow, equalling a +3 save sister model to a 3+ "cover" save and a "few things", you really are serious are you?
lol

Let's compare SoB with Veteran Guardsmen, very similar stats except SoB have a 3+ save, an extra +1LD, and a bolter while veterans have a close combat weapon and frag and krak grenades. 10 SoB 110pts. 10 Vets 70pts, with their carapace 100.

I think in an abstract way the grenades and close combat weapon are about equal to the extra leadership and bolter. This abstraction in obvious favor to the SoB, but given whats probably an over cost for the Veterans carapace, its negligibly.

So you're looking at a 10pt difference to give SoB a 3+ sv. Going from 4+ to 3+, this is a 20% improvement to saves. Meaning a fifth as many SoB fewer would get killed relative to Veterans. Given that and the abstract all other things are equal, SoB are more appropriately 20% more than a Veteran with carapace or 12pts per SOB.

The only elbow room to justify a cost lower is to argue that the Veteran Guardsmen are extremely over costed for carapace armor 30pts, which by the same formulation as above, should only cost 14-15pts.

So comparing the hypothetical 95pt veteran squad we see SoB should be 115pts for a squad. GW likely rounded down the 0.5pts per SOB for simplification.

So here we have a spectrum, at their cheapest a SoB should be 11.5pts/model and 12pts at the most.

If you want to compare these then you also need to include wargear options and what tehy will do to the compared unit.
A sister flamer is more dangerous and will earn more points back vs IG veterans then a veteran flamer, if we are talking a heavy flamer then those auto kill veterans on a 2+, sisters get their saves.

Add faith magic to this meaning that sisters can if they opt to and are lucky, get armour saves vs all AP negating weapons the veterans might get while veterans are not granted such a benefit in return.

again, if you choose to take a squad vs squad example DO include all aspects, not just a naked squad vs another naked one, if doing so then grey knights all of a sudden become one of the most powerful armies out there but as soon as wargear and upgrades factor in they become nigh useless.

The result is that those 12p per sister are further upped, 13p a piece is a good start.


Will be fun to see what excuse Necrosis will find to squirm out of this one and claim sisters ought to be 10p each.

Uh. . . Ork leadership non-existent? What are you smoking? Most of the time Ork Boyz are FEARLESS, they only drop to Ld. 7 when there are only 7 of them left, and even then they get take a 5-point item that gives them a re-roll, effectively boosting their Ld. to 9. So the WORST Ld. a mob of Ork Boyz will ever have is 9, effectively.

EDIT: Also, a mob of Orks does have some tank-busting ability, because unless their player is an idiot every mob has a PK. Now, that's not MUCH anti-tank, but it is some.

Pyriel- wrote:
I dont care what you want.
http://www.gothcon.se/oldweb/thexxxiv/main/index.php
http://www.wizard-games.com/forum/index.php
http://bsk.sverok.net/SilverStripe/startsida
http://lincon.sverok.net/index.php?meny=meny&sida=01start

Hope you know Swedish, feel free to email and ask for several years worth of tournament results and see how well SoB armies do in big against all tournaments.
With your BS attitude I´m certainly not going to do the work for you.

So you want me to go out and prove your points by sending emails to websites that speak different languages then I do just to prove myself wrong? But I can provide a direct link showing a tournament result where a sister player made it to 9 place and only one more made it in the top 50.
http://blog.lonepilgrim.co.uk/2009/03/news-and-rumours-40k-grand-tournament.html

http://berkswarhammer40k.blogspot.com/2010/01/battle-for-berks-tournament-results.html
Here's another tournament where the sister player came in last place.

Sometimes they do good, sometimes they do bad but their not always winning.

Check again then, they also have 6+ armour saves, no fancy flamers, no tank busting ability and a non existent leadership but I guess you, being the expert, already knew that. To bad you forget" things.

Well Berzerker has already said everything that needed to be said about that expect that Ork do have flamers which they can also use as power weapons to if they don't fire them. Their called Burna boyz.

Wow, equalling a +3 save sister model to a 3+ "cover" save and a "few things", you really are serious are you?
lol

A 3+ cover saves can sometimes be better then a 3+ armour save. Now yes their are also things that negate cover but their are also things that negate armour save.

If you want to compare these then you also need to include wargear options and what tehy will do to the compared unit.
A sister flamer is more dangerous and will earn more points back vs IG veterans then a veteran flamer, if we are talking a heavy flamer then those auto kill veterans on a 2+, sisters get their saves.

Add faith magic to this meaning that sisters can if they opt to and are lucky, get armour saves vs all AP negating weapons the veterans might get while veterans are not granted such a benefit in return.

again, if you choose to take a squad vs squad example DO include all aspects, not just a naked squad vs another naked one, if doing so then grey knights all of a sudden become one of the most powerful armies out there but as soon as wargear and upgrades factor in they become nigh useless.

The result is that those 12p per sister are further upped, 13p a piece is a good start.


Will be fun to see what excuse Necrosis will find to squirm out of this one and claim sisters ought to be 10p each.

First off, not once did I claim they should be 10 points. Your just putting words in my mouth in order to make me look like a fool. Also if it's one on one the sister squad can only attempt to use one faith which they can fail. A squad of 10 won't get the 3+ inv save and if you want to take about lucky, the guard squad can kill off the entire sister squad with a demolition charge. Also the squad can take a heavy bolter and 3 plasma guns. Thus they can shoot from further range then the sisters and the plasma guns just completely kill sisters since they don't get an armour save and you can't always spirit.

Edit: Also guys veterans actual cost 6 points each. 6x10=60=10(to upgrade one to a sergeant). It's the same with a space marine squad 16x10=80+10(to upgrade one to a sergeant).
Also the veteran and making the sqaud faithfully only account for 4 points. As if you look at the other sister squads that are already faithfully their veteran only cost 10 points instead of 14.

So a sister is 5 point more expensive then a veteran guardsmen. The sister get's a better armour save, weapon and Ld. She is 4 points less then a space wolf who get's a better WS, S, T, I and has two close combat weapons.

Uh. . . Ork leadership non-existent? What are you smoking? Most of the time Ork Boyz are FEARLESS, they only drop to Ld. 7 when there are only 7 of them left,

Ever fielded ork trukk heavy armies then you would know what ruin your failed Ld saves can do or how important it is to play in a manner that your smaller squads that assault will absolutely win the melee.
Ergo, non existent ork leadership.

So you want me to go out and prove your points by sending emails to websites that speak different languages then I do just to prove myself wrong? But I can provide a direct link showing a tournament result where a sister player made it to 9 place and only one more made it in the top 50.

Yes, you are the one who is whining and moaning about your sisters not being the top cheeze army, I gave you the means to find proof on the contrary and you know, Swedes DO speak/write/read English so nice try but no cigar.
On the other hand if you want to remain ignorant and continue believing your own BS then dont research. Doesnt matter to me, just shows what kind of agenda you have and how much you care for "fair" balance.

Well Berzerker has already said everything that needed to be said about that expect that Ork do have flamers which they can also use as power weapons to if they don't fire them. Their called Burna boyz.

Wow, ignorant it seems, was only the start.
Try figure out how much the burna boy costs, how good save it has and how many naked casulty soakers they have to take wounds on and also how much the obligatory transport will cost them in order to get them where they are needed and not blow up like ork things do if left to cheap. Thinking things through several steps in advance before you open your mouth isn´t really your forte huh?
LOL

A 3+ cover saves can sometimes be better then a 3+ armour save. Now yes their are also things that negate cover but their are also things that negate armour save.

Really, when? And do try this time to equal the worth of a 3+ cover save to that of a 3+ armour save and do so on a regular basis, I´m not interested in your extreme examples that rarely happen.
A hint for you, try to "forget" to mention what flamers do to 3+ armour saves vs what they do to cover saves.

First off, not once did I claim they should be 10 points. Your just putting words in my mouth in order to make me look like a fool.

Firstly, you keep screaming that I´m wrong when I try to point out they are underpriced at 11p. Aka_Mythos gave a quick example which I took a little further and the only thing you do is just keep steamrolling forward with your BS pointing out burnaboys as some sort of example to I dont know yet since you failed. Your wet dream it seems, is to have even cheaper sisters.

Secondly, no problem, you are doing an utmost job of making yourself look like one, thanks for the laughters btw.

Also if it's one on one the sister squad can only attempt to use one faith which they can fail. A squad of 10 won't get the 3+ inv save and if you want to take about lucky, the guard squad can kill off the entire sister squad with a demolition charge. Also the squad can take a heavy bolter and 3 plasma guns. Thus they can shoot from further range then the sisters and the plasma guns just completely kill sisters since they don't get an armour save and you can't always spirit.

The concept that specific situational examples, previously discussed between me and dumplingman, does not work since it can be just as easily countered by examples of other kinds, did really avoid you in your frenzy to point out your poor sisters overpricing did it?

A hint: it stopped right after the "heavy bolters attackbikes make penitents useless" example. And you needed me to help you look foolish?

Try and rethink this, what idiot proof examples could I make to shut down your "oh noes they can take plasmaguns without paying for them (you "forgot" to include that again) etc attempts at misdirecting the sisters true 12-13p worth?
Its like with the burnaboys, gee not so OP good anymore after some further thinking steps were applied to them.
I´ll leave you at that, often people learn the most by thinking for themselves and not having everything served on a plate.

So a sister is 5 point more expensive then a veteran guardsmen. The sister get's a better armour save, weapon and Ld. She is 4 points less then a space wolf who get's a better WS, S, T, I and has two close combat weapons.

You dont refer to bloodclaws I hear.
The wolves cost 4p more and can do most things better yes, this is not a sisters issue however as the entire SM community feels tricked that SW are being able to "do it all" for less points.
However they pay the price in no long ranged shooting (that has staying power of any kind) and more expensive specialist melee.
As I said previously, learn how to play instead of crying for units that can do everyhing and always using pathetic comparisons to just about any unit in the whole game since there is ALWAYS some unit that can do something or take something that the sisters cant.

I feel sorry for the poor space pups that cant ride around in rhinos with a flamer and heavy flamer for roughly the same points as 10 naked wolfs and a leader in the open, how´s that for a comparison right back at you?

Pyriel, you seem to have ignored that the 12-13pt figure includes the faithful sister superior in its maths. In a 10 girl squad that would mean that they get a 14pt upgrade for 10pts. Are you actually arguing for making sisters 4pts cheaper?! I thought your argument was that they were overcosted.

Besides as has been pointed out troops are getting a discount in this edition (Hunters, guard, orks and nids al got cheaper, marines got cheaper if you factor in the free sarge) so keeping an "undercosted" troop at 11pts (when we proved that they really should be 11.5pts, oh, the undercosting!) would just be in keeping with that.

And all troops are deliberately undercosted by design, that way you are encouraged to use troops for their good value vs specialists which are less good value in general but fulfill a specific role for a better value.

So as has been argued here, at the very most sisters could get a 1pt cost increase which would fly in the face of 5th ed design principles.

Can we move on now?

Oh, and I'm still waiting to hear what the magic secret to using repentia is.

Oh and do you even listen to yourself sometimes;

"The wolves cost 4p more and can do most things better yes, this is not a sisters issue however as the entire SM community feels tricked that SW are being able to "do it all" for less points.
However they pay the price in no long ranged shooting (that has staying power of any kind) and more expensive specialist melee."

Because Sisters don't lack long range shooting vs, say, a squad of guard veterans.

SEVERAL reports on this thread already.

PLEASE feel free to attack each others arguments, and not each other PERSONALLY.

STOP the personal attacks, now!

marines got cheaper if you factor in the free sarge

This is an out right lie. Marines did not get cheaper at all they are 16 points now they used to be 15 points. You pay an extra 10 points for the Sarge which is why the base unit costs 90 points noy 80 points!

Sisters should be 12-13 points a model if that means the starting squad is 140 for 10 including superior + then 13 points per extra model that would be fine. It would make the min squad just a little more expensive but mean the larger squads would be more so.

I agree that numerous other units in the list need boosts but the basic trooper in THIS army needs a points increase as they are way too efficient in the current codex.

FlingitNow wrote:{quote]marines got cheaper if you factor in the free sarge

This is an out right lie. Marines did not get cheaper at all they are 16 points now they used to be 15 points. You pay an extra 10 points for the Sarge which is why the base unit costs 90 points noy 80 points!

Sisters should be 12-13 points a model if that means the starting squad is 140 for 10 including superior + then 13 points per extra model that would be fine. It would make the min squad just a little more expensive but mean the larger squads would be more so.

I agree that numerous other units in the list need boosts but the basic trooper in THIS army needs a points increase as they are way too efficient in the current codex.

I don't mind a small increase in the cost of a basic sister seeing as the transport for the whole squad will likely get a 15pt reduction when a new codex comes out. Adding 2pts onto the basic cost will only make a squad cost 5pts more if you buy them a rhino anyway.

The book of st lucius needs fixing as it is horribly broken at the moment; maybe make it cost 15pts/one per army.

Exorcists should probably get a slight nerf: Maybe making the launcher heavy3/4 instead of heavy d6. I think it is likely we will get some additional long-range tank killing stuff so a small adjustment to the best tank in the game is probably in order.

Seraphim need a bit of a boost. Furious charge or Preferred enemy would be nice, failing that a small point reduction would be appropriate.

Repentia need a thorough overhaul: Could maybe give them power weapons instead of eviscerators, and furious charge while keeping the same points cost?

The same goes for Penitent engines. As it stands, they are far too easy to kill.

Faith is going to be the hardest aspect of the book to re-work. Without it, SoB are little better than basic guardsmen so i can't see GW getting rid of it entirely. What i can see is a more streamlined system that will maybe only allow one AoF per turn but which affects all units with the Faithful rule. Some changes will probably be made to specific AoF too; making SotM only give a 4+inv save etc..

Overall, i hope GW doesn't mess too much with the choices that are already good, and gives us a few more options to play with. They've done what looks to be a great job with the new Tyranid codex, let's hope they can do the same for the SoB

Pyriel- wrote:Ever fielded ork trukk heavy armies then you would know what ruin your failed Ld saves can do or how important it is to play in a manner that your smaller squads that assault will absolutely win the melee.
Ergo, non existent ork leadership.

Ork Trukk can still carry 11 boyz and a nob. Making them fearless for a while and allowing them to jump in close combat and they can still reroll their leadership due to a cheap upgrade.

Yes, you are the one who is whining and moaning about your sisters not being the top cheeze army, I gave you the means to find proof on the contrary and you know, Swedes DO speak/write/read English so nice try but no cigar.
On the other hand if you want to remain ignorant and continue believing your own BS then dont research. Doesnt matter to me, just shows what kind of agenda you have and how much you care for "fair" balance.

I'm not whining, I'm debating. I'm trying to prove my points not yours. I try to support my points with evidence and examples. I expect those who debate against me to do the same.

Wow, ignorant it seems, was only the start.
Try figure out how much the burna boy costs, how good save it has and how many naked casulty soakers they have to take wounds on and also how much the obligatory transport will cost them in order to get them where they are needed and not blow up like ork things do if left to cheap. Thinking things through several steps in advance before you open your mouth isn´t really your forte huh?
LOL

15 points for a weapon that can be used as a flamer or a power weapon. Good against hordes when firing, good against marines when in close combat. Also you can upgrade 3 of them to be Meks for free. Put them in a Truk and watch them burn units or assault enemy units with power weapons. That being said, nobz might be better choice and that's why we might not see them to often.

Really, when? And do try this time to equal the worth of a 3+ cover save to that of a 3+ armour save and do so on a regular basis, I´m not interested in your extreme examples that rarely happen.
A hint for you, try to "forget" to mention what flamers do to 3+ armour saves vs what they do to cover saves.

There are certain weapons like plasma guns that ignore armour saves but don't ignore cover saves such as Ap3 or better weapons. In which cases a cover save is better. Yes flamers do ignore cover saves which is what balance it out.

You dont refer to bloodclaws I hear.
The wolves cost 4p more and can do most things better yes, this is not a sisters issue however as the entire SM community feels tricked that SW are being able to "do it all" for less points.
However they pay the price in no long ranged shooting (that has staying power of any kind) and more expensive specialist melee.
As I said previously, learn how to play instead of crying for units that can do everyhing and always using pathetic comparisons to just about any unit in the whole game since there is ALWAYS some unit that can do something or take something that the sisters cant.

I feel sorry for the poor space pups that cant ride around in rhinos with a flamer and heavy flamer for roughly the same points as 10 naked wolfs and a leader in the open, how´s that for a comparison right back at you?

Well chaos space marines also cost 15 points and get two close combat weapons. Also space wolfs do have long range shooting, let's take a look in the heavy support. Well they got a predator which is the same as a space marine predator, they have a whirl wind which is also the same as a space marine predator. The only heavy support that the same marines get that space wolfs don't is a thunder fire cannon but you know what space wolves gets? Long fangs which are 10 points cheaper then devastators when you give them the same weapons and they can split their fire. Not to mention their also cheaper then retributors when you give them the same weapons. No they may not be able to ride in rhinos with a heavy flamer but they can ride in rhinos with two free flamers if their in a squad of ten.

I'm back after an awesome weekend, looks like this thread got even more intense. Anyways at this point I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree. I know how I feel and the people on the otherside also feel a certain way fundementally and we just aren't going to change each others minds at this juncture, I'm just going to wait and see if normal sister's get a point hike, stay the same or get reduced. In the end some of us will grumble and others will be valididated.

Pyriel, you seem to have ignored that the 12-13pt figure includes the faithful sister superior in its maths. In a 10 girl squad that would mean that they get a 14pt upgrade for 10pts. Are you actually arguing for making sisters 4pts cheaper?! I thought your argument was that they were overcosted.

Yes and no.
I´m just arguing about the cost for a (one) basic sister, not a full upgraded squad.
I see GWs tendencies to force wargear on units with a slight discount but nevertheless making them overall more expensive or less flexible.

The sister superior is not a must as you can still keep your dirt cheap 11p sisters without any squad leader.

Other advantages include variable squad sizes and a total control of what wargear to take, extreme customisation is a big advantage in itself.
Imagine if tac squads could get a free seargent and grenades (they DO cost individually 16p each up from 15 mind you) plus could take weapon upgrades and choose their squad sizes.

Again, cost will be determined based on what new faith system there will be, untill we know we cant really determine the final point worth of a sister except for the basic non-faith worth with the final cost being even higher when faith is calculated in.

I think GW will make either squad sizes for sisters fixed or restrict the weapon upgrades to match squad sizes such as no double weapons unless the squad is at least 10 strong.
I also think there will be a bigger relative cost if the squad is numbering less models (if allowed) but a cheaper cost if the squad is taken in full blocks but this will, as with the SM, be counterbalanced by loss of flexibility and unit numbers.

I wouldnt mind 13p sisters with a free superior and a free flamer IF they are 10 strong. It would follow the SM precedence.

So as has been argued here, at the very most sisters could get a 1pt cost increase which would fly in the face of 5th ed design principles.

As has been equally argued, they are worth more then 1p increase.

Can we move on now?

Oh, and I'm still waiting to hear what the magic secret to using repentia is.

Make up your mind, do you want to move on or talk about repentias?
Repentias should get a 5+ inv save and the rest will have to wait since it will depend on the new faith system.
Who the hell knows what faith powers GW will give them, maybe they can all of a sudden teleport around, maybe they get shooting resistance powers etc.

Because Sisters don't lack long range shooting vs, say, a squad of guard veterans.

sisters get other things and have retributors with casualty soakers contrary to the SW but you already knew that so what was the point of that remark?
You´ll have to do better then that.

This is an out right lie. Marines did not get cheaper at all they are 16 points now they used to be 15 points. You pay an extra 10 points for the Sarge which is why the base unit costs 90 points noy 80 points!

Sisters should be 12-13 points a model if that means the starting squad is 140 for 10 including superior + then 13 points per extra model that would be fine. It would make the min squad just a little more expensive but mean the larger squads would be more so.

I agree that numerous other units in the list need boosts but the basic trooper in THIS army needs a points increase as they are way too efficient in the current codex.

Amen to that!

Well, the tac seargent cost 15+ previously, now its 10p included in the squad who costs 10p more nevertheless so you save 5p IF the squad is 10 strong and only then can you take double weapons.
All in all the tac is even worse then it was beforehand since you could choose to pay for grenades and choose to take variable squad sizes WITH double weapons. Now it lacks flexibility and is often seen as an evil necessity in SM armies.
So everybody whining about "cheaper" tacs to excuse ridiculously cheap sister point costs miss a lot of things.

Exorcists should probably get a slight nerf: Maybe making the launcher heavy3/4 instead of heavy d6. I think it is likely we will get some additional long-range tank killing stuff so a small adjustment to the best tank in the game is probably in order.

Agree, some things in the SoB army feels to orky. Sisters shouldnt be this random. fixed attacks for flagellants as dumplingman suggested and fixed excorcist shots could be a way to start.

As for long range AT fire I dont think so, the lack of long ranged AT fire is one of the armies themes and will probably not be changed by GW.
Its like with the GKs, no long range AT is an intergrated part of the army design.

Repentia need a thorough overhaul: Could maybe give them power weapons instead of eviscerators, and furious charge while keeping the same points cost?

Depends on what faith system will come into use.
Also a powerweapon melee unit is already present in the form of flaggelants whereas tehre is no eviscerator unit other then repentia.

The same goes for Penitent engines. As it stands, they are far too easy to kill.

Counterbalanced with beign able to horde.
If they are to be better then their point costs must be remade to fit AND also be dropped to 1-3 and not 1-9 since balance and power increases exponentially with the number fielded.
Compare SM 1 dread armies vs SM 6 dread armies, in what instance is the dread a powerhouse?

Ork Trukk can still carry 11 boyz and a nob. Making them fearless for a while and allowing them to jump in close combat and they can still reroll their leadership due to a cheap upgrade.

A very "little" while mind you. One melee or one shooting turn and they are running.

I'm not whining, I'm debating. I'm trying to prove my points not yours. I try to support my points with evidence and examples. I expect those who debate against me to do the same.

Then why do you choose your proofs blatantly ignoring others given to you?

There are certain weapons like plasma guns that ignore armour saves but don't ignore cover saves such as Ap3 or better weapons. In which cases a cover save is better. Yes flamers do ignore cover saves which is what balance it out.

Ah, and exactly how many more flamers and common lasguns/bolters are there in any given army then things like AP3 plasmaguns?
Its like comparing rocks to gold, just because both exist doesnt mean they are equally worth since they have a very uneven impact due to differing rarities.
Again, a 3+ armour save will always be hands down better then a 3+ cover save in overall scenarios plus it isnt terrain sensitive.

Well chaos space marines also cost 15 points and get two close combat weapons.

And? They run of the board if failing a Ld test hence the 1p lower point cost.

but you know what space wolves gets? Long fangs which are 10 points cheaper then devastators when you give them the same weapons and they can split their fire. Not to mention their also cheaper then retributors when you give them the same weapons. No they may not be able to ride in rhinos

A very bad comparison. Again, please DO think things through twice before replying.
Ask yourself what are their weaknesses that SM devs and retributors are given that long fangs dont have?
The long fangs are a glass cannon, no casulty soakers, one weaponless guy granting the split fire, LD tests needed to be taken after just 2 casulties, no BS5 weapon, no faith magic, no cheap rhinos (yes sisters will get 35p rhinos soon, you can bet on that) as transports and no staying power what so ever.

I'm back after an awesome weekend, looks like this thread got even more intense. Anyways at this point I think I'm just going to have to agree to disagree. I know how I feel and the people on the otherside also feel a certain way fundementally and we just aren't going to change each others minds at this juncture, I'm just going to wait and see if normal sister's get a point hike, stay the same or get reduced. In the end some of us will grumble and others will be valididated.

As long as they get more options that are fun and usable I´m a happy camper.

Pyriel - has it occurred to you that a SoB squad already cost what you are stating?

Noone is complaining about Footsloggers, so to run a naked SoB squad you need

10 Sisters, Vet Superior, Flamer = 130 points.

Add in a Rhino w/ Smoke - 183 points

Make these changes you suggested:

I wouldnt mind 13p sisters with a free superior and a free flamer IF they are 10 strong. It would follow the SM precedence.

10 Sisters (Free Flamer, Free Vet) - 130 points
Add in a (SM) Rhino = 165 points

I will take your suggested changes any day of the week. - also you need a superior or you cannot perform acts of faith as it stands.