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What should change about this army.

Addition of preachers and confessors from 3rd ed
Updated zealot rules

Inclusion of Repressor tank

Reduce cost by 10 points give penitent engines either a toughness value with FNP (which is unlikely) or raise front armor and remove open topped

Sister's repentia
reduced cost, an invul save in CC probably 5++ ability to embark on transports allow priest to join unit or allow addiitonal mistresses in unit and make them faithful

Arcoflaggelents
Additional wound, make D6 attacks either 3 or 4 and add FNP also allow elchessiary (can't spell that worD) characters to join the squad maybe some special kind of deployment ability or abiltiy to ride transports

neural whips for sarges and ICs. Maybe something like pys/blessed bolts option on most squads. Sarissa option for all units.
Thats what is on top of my head right now.

thx

dumplingman wrote:Addition of preachers and confessors from 3rd ed
Updated zealot rules

Inclusion of Repressor tank

Seconded!

dumplingman wrote:

Sister's repentia
reduced cost, an invul save in CC probably 5++ ability to embark on transports allow priest to join unit or allow addiitonal mistresses in unit and make them faithful

I think invul saves might make them too good, and transports seem to take away from the theme-liness of them. Totally with you on a point reduction though.

I was thinking rhinos should be 35 points and immolators should be 50. For Repentia how about feel no pain and preferred enemy?

Not to be rude, but your suggestions all seem to add FNP to alot of units - while reducing costs.

I think a lot of people concede that Repentia are grossly overcost for points. I do not think FNP seems like the appropriate buff for them though.

Well the idea is since repentia cant take a transport and each cost 20 points FNP would give them some survivability to at least reach their target. However maybe lower to 15 points each and give them something like fleet instead?

Normal sisters need to have their points increased. 13 points each seems about fair.

lol 13 points for a sister no way, 1. because that puts them into space marine range point range and they aren't nearly as tough or as hurty in CC, and 2. because every single basic troop in the game has gotten a point reduction in 5th ed.

Rofl No way man while they do have faith, bolters, and power armor like marines they aren't as tough nor as good in CC. If anything I think they will either stay the same or get a 1 point decrease with free nades.

Wel a FW is 10 points a sister has better armour, better leadership, better shooting, better weapon options and access to faith points. All that is easy worth 3 points if not more.

A SOB doesn't have the Tau's pulse rifle. Also Tau fire warriors will probably end up cheaper. Tau, statwise wimpier than a guardsmen, but with a superior weapon. Tau, without any real changes to rules, will likely see a point drop similar to the guard. If you assume they were previously under-priced SoB as they are would likely hold their current point cost. I think the Faith system for SoB will likely get redone, if it does that will impact cost.

A SOB doesn't have the Tau's pulse rifle.

But does have bolter and BS4. 11 FW shooting at 10 Sisters who will win? Sisters even if the FW shoot first.

Any other situation and the sisters are miles ahead...

Fire warriors have far better weapons as in a higher strenght and range and come in squads of 6 to 12. Strenght 5 guns makes killing tanks possible. Fire warriors can take a drone to increase their bs. While sisters come in squads of 10 to 20. Also fire warriors are their for a balancing factor due to your battle suits which are pretty cheap for what they can do.

Fire Warriors employ different tactics compared to Sisters of Battle. At the end of the day, Battle Sisters are just glorified Vets guardsmen in power armor with bolters.

+1 to the 35 points Rhino idea and 50 points Immolator.

I think the Repressor should be front AV12, side AV11, and rear AV10.

Seraphims should be reduced to a lower cost either 18 or 20.

Exorcist and Faith remains the same.

Repentias are technically Sister outcast. They need a whole bunch of changes if they'll ever become viable.

Tau are overcosted and will get fixed, sisters are not under costed.

I thought of another great idea inferno pistols having a 12" range!

I also think faith system is going to change. How I can't quite figure out without loosing allot of flavor of the army. It can't be pyschic powers nor a system similar to orders.

I'm all for seraphim reduction in point cost, although 17 - 18 is more likley than 20 imo. Hit and run is good but a S3 T3 assault troop shouldn't be 20 points unless they get some other random rule. And angellic visage isn't that great unless they take away the book of st lucius.

This may be OP but how about holy promethium upgrade for infantry heavy flamers?

I'm trying to rethink sister's repentia FNP doesn't work for me, but I cna see how an 5++ would be to powerful. Maybe a 5++ only in CC kinda like wyches have? Or another option would be the ability to include more mistresses thereby gaining a hire I inital attack. How about something like you can purchase 1 mistress for every 5 sisters repentia.

Also does anyone else think that all sisters with bolters should have the sarissa option as an upgrade. From a fluff perspective it makes sense but in game terms I'm not quite sure. Maybe just celestians? They are the elite of the order.

Addition of preachers and confessors from 3rd ed
Updated zealot rules

Inclusion of Repressor tank

Reduce cost by 10 points give penitent engines either a toughness value with FNP (which is unlikely) or raise front armor and remove open topped

Sister's repentia
reduced cost, an invul save in CC probably 5++ ability to embark on transports allow priest to join unit or allow addiitonal mistresses in unit and make them faithful

Arcoflaggelents
Additional wound, make D6 attacks either 3 or 4 and add FNP also allow elchessiary (can't spell that worD) characters to join the squad maybe some special kind of deployment ability or abiltiy to ride transports

neural whips for sarges and ICs. Maybe something like pys/blessed bolts option on most squads. Sarissa option for all units.
Thats what is on top of my head right now.

With no corresponding price increase?
Are you for real?

umm I don't see your point cost increases for what? This is asking what we'd like to see changed so I'm listing all the things I'd potentially like. sure if I got all the things I desired for sisters repentia and arcoflaggents then sure maybe a poitn increase would be justified. I'm just listing my ideas is all. Personally if arco flaggelents got 2 wound FNP and a set number of attacks 50+ points would be justifiable. Just listing options friend.

Sure but bear in mind you HAVE to look at it with a wider perspective. Just screaming one wants better stuff while cheaper tells me one is to pro a certain army and you´ll end up with a Haines effect.
The first thing SoB fanatics fail to realise is that their basic troops are on eof the best in the game for their point costs so when I hear someone who wants SoB troops on steroids while costing grot points per model then I get suspicious.

According to your logic it is ok for me to get space marines to have rending and jumppack movements for no point increase what so ever just because I want them to get all kinds of benefits added and because someone somewhere in the game gets better troop choices then I do?
Sorry but all units come with inter army balance, theme and synergy.

Inclusion of Repressor tank

Sure why not for an adequate point cost.

Reduce cost by 10 points give penitent engines either a toughness value with FNP (which is unlikely) or raise front armor and remove open topped

Lol, the first suggestion has no merit, the second is outright ridiculous. Monstrous creature staying power is far far more powerful then walker staying power.
No way the penitent is going to be a "creature".
And no way I am for lowering their price.
Why?

The single penitent is slightly overpriced I agree to that (as is the dreadnought) but this is ofset in the design of the army itself by being able to take up to 9 penitents and they increase in power exponentially the more you take, kind of like the landriaider does, one is puny and costs to much but take 3 in a 1500p army and you are a powergamer.
Same goes for the penitent so no way there will be a point decrease without also limiting them to 0-3.

Sister's repentia
reduced cost, an invul save in CC probably 5++ ability to embark on transports allow priest to join unit or allow addiitonal mistresses in unit and make them faithful

Inv save of 5+ OR a 4+ cover save, not both and no point reduction.
This is the number one whine unit for SoB fanatics.
You fail to realize the repentia serves the same tight role purpose like hammer terminators for example. This is an expensive role specific unit that does what it is meant to (was meant to since the army is old) and not some must do it all unit.

Repentia counters threat like nidzilla and monstrous creatures in a slightly different role like hammer terminators. You get twice as many for the same points and in non charging melee they get the same number of attacks. One gets nice armour saves while the other is way faster in movement to ofset this and both are designed for their specific nitches in their parent armies.

Arcoflaggelents
Additional wound, make D6 attacks either 3 or 4 and add FNP also allow elchessiary (can't spell that worD) characters to join the squad maybe some special kind of deployment ability or abiltiy to ride transports

For what point increase?
If you are serious about no point hike then I want free assault cannons for my tactical marines too!

neural whips for sarges and ICs. Maybe something like pys/blessed bolts option on most squads. Sarissa option for all units.
Thats what is on top of my head right now.

Neural whips for sergeants yes.
Sarissas for all SobS NO!
SoBs are not a melee army, giving them all sarissas is like giving ALL space marines ccw. Wont happen.
SoBs have their own melee oriented units like elites etc, those should have sarissas as an option or rather included in their profiles for a point cost like GW did with all SM troops.

lol 13 points for a sister no way, 1. because that puts them into space marine range point range and they aren't nearly as tough or as hurty in CC, and 2. because every single basic troop in the game has gotten a point reduction in 5th ed.

LOL
YOu are joking right?
Sisters will get a point hike and with good reason too.
11 points for a 3+sv mini that fires a S4 rapid weapon and that can have a flamer and a heavy flamer lol. Thats one of the best troops in the entire game for those points.
further on they can be agumented with +2S or inv saves if need be so there goes some of the T3 and S3 weaknesses.

SoBs will face the same future as stormtroopers did, they too were 10p a piece and were considered to be balanced back then (while sisters got better saves and better weapons for 1 measly point).
Sorry, the SoB are better then the more priced scouts by far.
They will most probebly get adde wargear in their statline like the SM troops and a point increase to 13-16p, all depending on what wargear tehy will retain and what faith powers they will get to agument their strenght.

Remember, common stormtroopers cost 16p now from 10p, all they got was AP3 on their weak weapons.


I fail to see a "horde" army being included in the future inquisitor codex, the =I= armies are all "elite".

Storm Troopers now have ap3 guns, a bunch of special rules to. They also got both a hell pistol and a close combat weapon which increase their combat effectiveness. Not to mention you can also give them orders to. Storm troopers are also overpriced to. That's why I never see any guard players use them. Also only the HQ can get the 2 up save. Also you have a chance of failing you faith. It does happen and when it does it tends to turn the tide of battle. Also they are also limited to what weapons they can take, a space marine can take a rocket launcher or a plasma gun which sisters cannot.

I think I am looking at it at wider perspective and not sceaming I wanted balanced stuff.

First off let me ask you how much variety do you see in witchunter armies? They are all regular sob squads with rhinos + exocricsts and flying nuns or type 2. regular sister squads with rhinos + celestians and immolator spam. That is all the variety that exists. While those units are good units there is zero competition for any of those slots. Are you suggesting that everything in the army that is good should become worse to put them more into line with the current state of the codex? No instead certain things need to be brought up to make them viable to take.


Now I know our troops are the best in the game 2nded imo by dark eldar warriors point for point. You mention Storm troopers as a comparison but I thnik that is a bad one. Yes they were 10 points a model and got hiked up to 16 but they also have an AP3 gun now instead of an ap5 they were also elites not a basic troop. Also note another reasno they got bumped to 16 points is there is an unnofical GW rule that any model that has an AP 3 or less weapon has to cost at least 15 points

Tell me this since 5th ed came out has any single BASIC in the game gotten more expensive? Lets take a look
Codex Marines, tac squads on the whole are now cheaper don't remember scouts.
Codex Imperial Guard platoons got cheaper as did vets
Codex Space wolves Grey hunters and blood claws are both cheaper
Codex Tyranids termingaunts and hormaguants are both cheaper as are genestealers

So the trend is lowering basic point cost for troops I think we can agree on that.

Repressor tank has a cost I just don't have IA on me at work, its cost is perfectly in line with 5th ed transports I just want acceses to it normally.

As for the Penitent engine I said the FNP is unlikely but its an idea thats all. And the 10 point reduction does make sense right now it barely costs more than a warwalker with weapons and is open topped. heavy bolter fire kills it before it can get into CC which is its only use and so thee is zero reason to take this unit especially since you need a priest first in order to take it which adds to its cost. ARe you seriously saying that using 9 penitent engines is a power gamer? If I take 9 that means I have exactly 0 modesl that can effectively fight from beyond 12" Heavy bolters from an attack bikesquard shred that unit in 1 maybe 2 turns, hell a lucky round of rapid firing bolters lays waste to the squad no they are clearly over priced for what you get.

Sister's repentia yes we do whine about them but its totally justified.

I never suggested they get a 4+ cover save they have a 4+ normal save now. the invul was an idea to allow them to surive in CC to attack or to allow them to survive to get into CC. As for the role repentia fill in an ideal world you are correct but in anything more than a fluffy game against fluffy armies, they are 100% worthless and are up there for the worst unit in the game award with the tau space pope. They don't counter threats like nidzilla is what you fail to see. It seems you are thinking about them ideally and in a vacum, not within the context of an actual game. They will never get a chance to survive to engage those monsters. They will either get swarmed by gaunts (either type) who will crush them in CC or shot with crappy guns that either wound them on 3s or ignore their saves. And sister's repentia do not get faster movement. My rhino + disembark gives me significantly move movement than my hoofing it across the battlefield. I just want a viable unit not terminators let the marines have those.

As for the change from arcoflaggents from D6 attacks to 4 I use the scatter laser change from eldar 3rd ed to 4th as my basis. Originally scatter lasers had D6 shots and that got changed to 4 shots. So I'm just doing the same thing here. Hell even 3 attacks would be fine. GW has a trend of getting rid of random tables and I'm just falling that. Therefore its likely that it will chagne from a variable attack that kills itself to something good but not quite as good as the maximum of 6 attacks. Have you ever taken arcoflaggents and used them against any decent army? the only way I've ever used them effectively is allied to IG with creed giving them outflank. Ogryns are a perfect example they are the same cost and even are better to the arco flaggelents and they aren't designed killing machines and don't require a priest that makes you always count as moving to purchase. And if you make them move faster they die. So yes I think either a stat boost or a poitn reduction is in order. Against no one takes these.

I said Sarissa options of course there is a point cost included I didn't say they should get them all for free. I think part of the disucssion we are having is you are taking me a little to literally. When I say options I mean options not automatic equipment. I've just read a bunch of the books when they mention sisters they talk about them using sarissas in CC and think its flavorful.

As to the flamer and heavy flamer right now our flamers are 1 point overcosted and the heavy flamer is 3 points undercosted those will be fixed in the next ed. We also need to close range to use any of those.

Also from the way you are talking about acts of faith leads me to believe you aren't quite sure how they work.
+2 strenth power requires me to roll equal to or under the number of models un my unit on 2D6 easy enough with a 10 strong squad but very hard with 5. Oh yeah did I mention it makes your I value drop to 1. so your unit dies to whatever you fight.

As for spirit of the martyr its not quite as good as everyone makes it out to be cause they are using it wrong. First of all you need to roll equal to or over the number of models in the sqaud to use it so a squad of 10 is probably not going ot get it off where as a squad of 5 might. And unlike every other act of faith you can only invoke it at the start of combat not once wounds are rolled so you may use it and have it wasted because your enemy only inflicted 1 wound.

We also understand that acts of faith is going to be completely reworked in the next dex it has to in order to stream line the game better so even mentioning them is moot.

also we aren't an =I= army as much as a sisters of battle army. Sisters of battle were around way before the =I= got codex rules. We aren't horde like IG but we aren't quite as few as space marines. There are lots of SoBs in the imperium plenty more than than then inquisitors its a different branch in the hierarchy.

My whole point is we have plenty of units that are worthless and some that are good but have too many wierd rules and restrictions I'm not thinking in a box I'm actually thinking what will happen based on the past evidence of every other update to every other army in the game. The trend speechs for itself look over the older codexes that got updated and see if what I'm saying doesn't make sense. most of the time its directly in tune with past updates.

I love getting to play against sisters and they always give me a good fight. That being said, what if Repentia were the same as now but got to strike back even if they died by something with higher initiative? I don't think this would be too over the top for some of the 5th edition abilities we've seen and I feel it would fit the theme rather well.

now that is a very constructive idea, I like it I still feel like they need a little more protection but it is a great and fluffy idea.

The biggest and best change you could make would be to drop the 0-1's (except assassins) and the opening up restrictions. Penitents and archos are weak enough without taking a sodding awful priest to boot.

Obviously allies are going bye bye but access to guard infantry platoons at the very least makes fluff sense even if all the guard support options and the marines go bye bye.

No idea how faith will be reworked but it needs to stay in some way shape or form.

So on a unit by unit basis stuff I would change

Basic Sisters - pts stay the same, flamers come down in price a little heavy flamers go up in price a little. Superior gets access to more wargear. Book will probably go away but I'd love it to stay. Repressor as a transport in addition to rhinos.

Stormies - please don't make them into Guard stormies but they probably will be, repressor and chimera as a transport option.

Zealots - added as a cheap fighty horde option

Celestians - get sarissas built in so they re-roll hits and wounds on the charge. Conidering they can only ever have 2 attacks max and can't shoot this is hardly broken but it makes them arginally better in cc. They need some kind of cc buff. Repressor as a transport.

Repentia - FNP works for me, they're crazed religious zealots that wish to die. They ignore wounds that another trooper would seek medical attention for and instead keep on fighting. The catalyst rule where they get to strike back in cc even if killed is a good idea but doesn't fix the problem of getting them there in the first place. They need one special rule boost and a slights pt drop or a total re-think. Become faithful.

Archo-Flags - 3 or 4 attacks, move as beasts, no priest required and a slight pts increase to go with the better and more easily used archo-flags. If you want to keep the trigger word rule state that if an Inquisitor is also included in the army they gain furious charge on the turn he uses the trigger word but suffer a wound each (saves okay) on the turn they charge that aren't counted towards combat results.

Death Cultists - are a squad (no more free killpoints) of 1-5 with the same states but infiltrate, scout, and the ability to buy one　"assassin skill" at a high pts premium, either poison, furious charge, stealth or hit and run.

Temple Assassins - stay the same and 0-1 but no longer require the inquisitor

Dominions - repressor added as a transport. Access to a character or piece of wargear that grants outflank.

Seraphim - fine as they are really, how good they'll be depends on how faith is implemented in the future. One boost would be that inferno pistols instead count as a twin-linked meltagun with the comparable pts increase but frankly unnecessary.

Rhinos, Exorcists, Repressors and Immolators all get pts adjustments to bring them in line with 5th edition pricing.

Retributors - slightly cheaper heavy guns, maybe access to heavy flamers?

Priests - independent characters, grant preferred enemy, fearless and rage to the unit they are in. If zealots make it into the list and celestians and repentia become better at cc then he suddenly has a reason to exist.

bravelybravesirrobin: like your thoughts especially the dominon idea, granting them outflank would be pretty cool and grant some tactical flexibility to the army.

I'm still not sold on the price of seraphim though, they were great in 4th but now I just don't know and their twin linked inferno pistols already cost more than a meltagun 14 points compared to 10 IIRC so I dont think increasing that cost for the option is in the cards. What made them so good in 4th was that they had 2 twin linked shots with the pistols instead of just one if they got a rule to represent that, well then I could see them being the same price or maybe a little more expensive.

side note I really really hope the book isn't gone. A point increase suer for 5 points its way to good, but gone I hope not.

bravelybravesirrobin : I agree with your ideas especially on these points:

Repentia have always been lacking of interest to me, but I confess that a FNP would make them a lot more seducing and is totally justified.

Dominion need a special deployment rule as they can't fully use their potential of close shooting

Zealots... I miss them so much...

Priests would be chosen for something else than to allow archo-flagellants

I think SOB should get a couple new units. I think they should have some sort of Mobile Shrine/chapel as a large transport that is less armored than a land raider but similar, with a transport capacity of 20. I also think there should be some variants to the Penitent Engine; sacrificing some of the close combat capabilities for short range fire in the form of additional multi-melta and heavy flamer options. Something like the valkyrie or rumored Tantalus might be cool as well.

I think they should have some sort of Mobile Shrine/chapel as a large transport that is less armored than a land raider but similar

Or an open topped Landraider? Less guns and some sort of holy shrine rule maybe allowing re-rolls on acts of faith within 12"?

I think SOB should get a couple new units.

If and when they do get a new codex then yes they will get a bucket load more options. The SM codex now has as many HQ choices as the Tau Codex has CHOICES!!!

Their codex has a number of images of large tracked cathedrals, I was thinking a smaller one of those would be appropriate. Armed with something like a demolisher cannon and twinlined heavy flamers. It wouldn't be as armored as a landraider but maybe close to it, 14/13/13. It could maybe boost the effects of acts of faith or whatever system might replace that.

I think the penitent engine has some of the most potential. Its likely to get a plastic kit, since its a metal model, and thus its likely to have some new options and upgrades. A variety of close combat weapons would be the first set of options I'd be sure. Then maybe some appropriate ranged options.

I think all the SOB's Rhino's should have a pintle mounted flamer option, maybe heavy flamer. It would make it easy enough to use Repressors as Rhino's with that upgrade and dozer blade. Sparing us from having to have a cool but redundant unit entry.

Borrowing from WH-Fantasy, you could bring in a unit similar to pilgrims. Kinda the relic bearers and people who follow the SoB around in service to them. http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat40024&prodId=prod780934

I think the hardest part is that the SoB need more in the way of Fast Attack choices. They got jump packs and few other things, but its not a full list of options and leaves something to be desired.